The Steel Guitar Forum

<SMALL>most people... don't use them above the middle of their volume range</SMALL>

No, and w/the Session 500 (especially modded), there's a darn good reason for that; potential LAWSUITS! The suckah is LOUD!

When I play in bigger venues like the Boulder Theater or outdoors; basically anywhere there's a soundman, they mic my amp but I could play up to the house system if I HAD to (painful though it might be). Does the sound/tone degrade badly up there? Dunno, never tried and I'm not sure how you would. There's a natural recoil factor that would prevent me from really assessing the tone anyway.

Regarding my Vibrasonic; like an idiot I immediately got online and ordered an entire complement of new tubes including new 6L6wgt+ or some such supposedly rated up to 20w higher output; plus a combination of Mullard and EH AXs & ATs. Plug it all together and listen expectantly for... what? After two weeks I notice a growing hummm so after much switching and swapping discover it's the EH AT7 in socket 4. Moved it to socket 5 and problem solved.

Is it 'breathing'? Dunno. I do know it does sound better when I piggyback it on top of my Peavey 4x12 cabinet but that defeats the whole purpose; having ONE amp for both applications (steel and tele).

So NOW I went and retrieved my RealTube II and am preamping the Tele and sending it to the second input of my Session.

I don't know what to do!?
SOB!
*wringing hands*

I completely agree that being able to play well is much more important than the equipment you play through. Some of my top idols (Emmons, Cohen, Stafford, Chalker) have used mostly solid state amps, and always sound incredible. Nevertheless, my own bumbling slow hands sound better to my ears through tubes - I just enjoy the playing more.

I also cannot bring myself to test the top volume of an amp when playing alone. I can only test these by playing with a loud group where I have to push the amp to be heard. What I have found is that most ss amps sound terrible in the top third of their volume range, whereas tube amps sound their best up there. As someone said above, it is simply easier to listen to a loud tube amp - it somehow softens the blow and spreads it out over a wide spectrum of frequencies. Whereas, a ss state amp is more accurate and can kill your ears with those treble spikes. Of course the tube harmonics also sound different at moderate volumes, but the difference between tubes and ss at moderate volumes is less objectionable to me.

A couple of people e-mailed me some good questions that need to be clarified here. The biggest help in sorting out the various Fender tube amps is the Fender Amp Field Guide (http://www.ampwares.com/ffg/). The Fender eras are the Tweed era ('40s and '50s), a brief "brown" era, the black-face era (up to around '68), and the post-CBS-takeover silver-face era ('68-early '80s). The BF to SF switchover was not abrupt, and early SFs were like BFs inside, or easily converted to BF. BFs sound warmer, but have less clean headroom, and are more prized by regular guitar players.

SFs gradually became cleaner and more powerful, and a master volume knob was introduced in an attempt allow some intentional distortion at low volume levels by overdriving the preamp and cutting back the power amp. This was not very successful, because the power tube distortion is as desirable as the pre-amp tube distortion. Six-stringers bad-mouth these "master volume" SFs for this simple reason. The hand-wired circuitry is fine, and you can simply dial the master volume all the way up and only use the channel volume (or more sensibly, just set both volumes the same at all times). In the late '70s an ultralinear transformer was introduced that kicked the clean power up about 30% (the Twin went from 100 watts to 135 watts). All the bad-mouthing of these SF amps by 6-stringers is irrelevant to pedal steelers. That extra clean headroom in the SFs is exactly what steel needs. These are all hand-wired, all-tube amps, with steel tone to the bone. After the SF era, the guitar amp world began chasing the intentional distortion 6-stringers craved, and the clean SF sound went the way of the dinosaurs. But there are lots of these great old dinosaurs out there at much better prices than the black faces.

The Super Twin and Super Twin Reverb came along at the end of the SF era. Although they have a black face plate, they are all silver-face circuitry inside. They have six 6L6 power tubes, an ultralinear transformer, and put out 180 watts that are clean to the top. They have about 50% more power than a 135 watt Twin - so it's like a Twin with a volume knob that goes to about 15. There are two on Ebay now that are mistakenly rated as 100 watts. There's also a Twin Chorus on Ebay that is mistakenly rated as 400 watts. This is a ss amp, probably about 100 watts. The 400 watts is the power draw, like the wattage of a light bulb. Most 100 watt tube Twin-type amps draw about 300 watts. That is a completely different kind of watts than the power output to the speakers. Also, the output wattage usually listed below the speaker jack of a Fender tube amp is really the recommended power handling of the speaker. The actual output of the amp is around 20% less that that.

Steelers are not the only ones who like the Fender clean tube sound. Country 6-stringers love them, but don't need the high power models. Surfers have always loved them, and some blues and jazz guitarists like them. But the legions of rock guitarists worship at the altars of the black faces, Marshalls and Boogies.<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by David Doggett on 07 April 2005 at 10:37 AM.]</p></FONT><font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by David Doggett on 07 April 2005 at 03:08 PM.]</p></FONT>

Darn well put Dave! However, I can't recall any Tweed era amps with EL34 tubes??? I remeber 5881, 6L6GC and 6V6 tubes. Did I miss something there!!!

The Tweed era amps typically had lower B+ voltages on the plates of the tubes, no bias control. There were several styles on inverter circuits used. Some had more gain stages, such as 4 in a low power tweed Twin! Only 3 gain stages in a Blackface Twin Vibrato channel and two on the normal channel. Tone stacks were surely different as well. I do love the tweed amp sound. I am presently using a 1959 Clone in a Tweed Twin cab with 2-Jensens (1956 and 1957 reconed by Ted Weber) and an identical cab for an extension with two EV Force 12's for my Tele. Loudest 40 watts I ever heard and tone to the bone! My steel amp is an old Session 400 and I do love it. I usually mix it with my 1990's era Dual Professional for steel. Sounds like the classic Fender tone on steroids!<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Ken Fox on 07 April 2005 at 10:57 AM.]</p></FONT>

Once again, I didn't know what I was talking about. Some of the Tweeds did have 6L6 power tubes or 5881 (which are similar), and some of the older ones had 6V6 tubes. The lead player in one of my groups plays an old Gretsch through an old Tweed Deluxe. He also has a custom reissue '57 Tweed Twin that I have played through. Both these amps have that Tweed sound, which to me is a kind of clarion chimey sound. My Peavey Delta Blues has that same sound and is modeled after the Fender Tweed Pro I think. It has EL84 power tubes (not EL34 as I mistakenly thought). So I thought that Tweed sound came from the different power tubes. I knew the black faces and silver faces used 6L6 power tubes, and since they sound deeper and fuller, I associated that with the power tubes. But alas, the later Tweeds used 6L6 tubes, including the new Custom reissue. So the Tweed sound comes from something else - maybe the preamp tubes, the rectifiers, the EQ circuits, or even the cabinets. By the way, that little Tweed Deluxe is the loudest 15 watt amp I have ever heard.

What a wonderful posting!! I do not have the technical background that many of you apparently have but I have a fairly good set of ears...I played on a '66Black Face for many years with my strat and '66emmons p/p. Lloyd's playing on the Byrds Sweetheart of the Rodeo(Hickory Wind)was directly responsible for my interest in the steel...I purchased a Derby and a Nashville 1000 within the last five years and have barely looked back at my "vintage" equipment. In fact I was curious about the differences of the 2 amps thru the derby and I played them side by side recently...IMHO for the steel my preference is clearly the Peavey...for the strat...the twin. Hauling the stuff around isnt much different given there isnt much weight difference between the twin and the peavey.
It eventually gets down to personal taste and preference. In the past i rarely had any one from the audience compliment my tone but since swithching over to the SS, someone invariably comes up to me and compliments it....for whatever that is worth...and then again maybe my tone is better because i have more experience now. If you have confidence in your abilities and your equipment you should soar.

Great thread!

I have a roomful of Peavey amps. 3 of them are 80's vintage SS (LA, NV, and Chorus 400's), and one is a 90's tube amp (Ultra 410). Nice amps all.

Last Sunday night I was invited to a jam session. I played steel, the guys on both sides of me were brothers, retired, both playing older strats (old style knobs on them, not sure the age). One played through a Silverface twin, the other a Fender "Classic" (it was a little smaller than the twin, not real sure what was in it.) The tone they got was breathtaking. Both were fingerpickers, Brent Mason style, and just tore it up.

One week ago I would have agreed with the SS fans, but the first song made a believer out of me. Presence and tone wise, my NV400 wasn't even there next to those Twins.

Really great thread. What a wonderful group of contributors.

I have always liked the idea of a hybrid SS/tube steel amp. Several others including Brad Sarno have mentioned that they like the hybrid approach.

Anyway, I have been spending way too much time over the winter comparing steel amp combinations and I have discovered a pretty darn great sounding combination.
Most of the hybrid configurations discussed involve a series arrangement. By that I mean that the signal flow first goes through a tube circuit and then a solid state circuit, etc. or vice versa. I had been thinking about a parallel hybrid set up. So I got a tube amp and a solid state amp and split the signal into each equally. After adjusting tone controls a bit.... This rig sounds fantastic. It seems that all of the sweetness of the top end of the tube amp dominates the upper frequencies and all of the solid low mids of the SS amp dominate in that region. Neither amp on it's own sounds nearly as good as the combination. Also when I compared two tube amps together or two SS amps together, not as good as the Parallel Hybrid™ set up.

I have more than a dozen amps so I tried a couple of different SS/Tube parallel rigs and in every case it's great. I have not had a chance to try this on a session or live yet. I suspect that it might take some work to get it right on tape (or hard-disk) or in a PA, but from the drivers seat, it's awfully good. More info to come if anyone is interested.

TC

Our band has done several jobs backing Alan Frizzell (Lefty and David's younger brother).

Alan plays a late 50's Telecaster (and gets that great Tele sound and all the Roy Nichols/Haggard style licks) with either a Fender or the last time we worked with him (January) with a Mesa Boogie. BUT, the first time we worked with him he checked out our amps (the lead guitar player and me). The lead picker, who uses a Fender Strat with blue lace sensor pickups, had a Fender Deluxe Reverb and I had a Nashville 400 at the time. His comments were that the lead guitar had the right amp (A Fender tube amp)for lead and I had the right amp for steel.

I bought a Music Man amp when they 1st came out. I remember now that it was a hybrid.
The preamp stage was solid state and the power stage was tubed.

That was when Leo Fender quit/sold/whatever
"Fender" and started MM; I think?

I forget the model of the amp, but it had either 2-12's or 4-10's. It was a good amp, but still a little edgy compared to the all-tube Fenders.

I also bought a comperable MM "stratocaster" electric that was one of the latest axes to be outfitted with active preamp[s] for the pickups. It sizzled.

Don't have either, now.

FWIW,

cf

Just FYI, the most amazing all tube clean setup I ever played through was a THD univalve through a single 12" cabinet, where the line out fed into a VHT 2-90-2 power amp which powered a THD 2X12" cab and and a THD cab with a JBL E130. There was also a Lexicon processor doing stereo efx to the VHT power amp. THis thing sounded great, but made me hated by the sound guys and band members. It was just too freakin' loud. It sounded amazing, and even more amazing the more I pushed the KT88s in the power amp. This setup could play a stadium with no miking and kick butt. But I like my sound better through my single THD BiValve head. And the sound guys in town love me.

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www.tyack.com

Just a couple thoughts along these lines...and just my opinion....

Something that hasn't been discussed, and maybe because it's a technical issue, is why the tone of SS versus Tubes is different. The answer lies in the fact that tubes, with their transformers, when pushed, will emphasize EVEN order harmonics, and SS devices, when pushed, emphasize ODD order harmonics.

Even order harmonics are musical in nature and, to the ear, have a decidely pleasant tonality. They add that "softness" or "warmth" to the tone. SS, with it's odd order harmonics sound harsher and cause a more "sterile", "hard" tonality. If an amp is driven to distortion, tubes will produce a soft, almost compressed distortion, whereas SS will produce a buzzing, almost crackling kind of distortion. Most players know exactly what I mean...they've heard it.

This is why the two sound different to many with discerning ears. In the first third of a good amp's power rating the sound is clean and clear and differences between the two types of amps are hard to hear. But, push the amps close to their maximum clean power and you'll definitely begin to notice this difference.

A steel, as has been eloquently described earlier, needs clean power. So, as long as a SS amp is operated within it's "clean" range it will deliver satisfactory sound. A tube amp can be driven further up it's power range and still be satisfactory because it's distortion characteristics are more musical and almost pleasing to the ear.

To me, this explains why a big 400 watt SS amp is needed compared to, say, a 135 watt Twin. It's all in the harmonic content of the sound. Peavey's DDT compression circuits were designed to avoid that nasty distorted range and keep things clean as it approached it's max rating.

Great efforts have been expended to design SS circuits that minimize this odd order harmonic content, which tubes do by their very nature, and to give the player pure, clean power. But, the tube "warmth" is still missing....thus the popularity of the tube preamps.

IMHO, steel amps need that tube sound, but the resulting weight is a significant hurdle which may never be overcome.

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Every day is a Great day,
Mike
(aka Sideman)

Thanks, Mike. That pretty clearly states my experience. The weight is a problem. But I'm thinking there is not too much difference in the weight of a 100-200 watt tube amp, and a 400 watt solid state amp. A NV 1000 is 57 lbs., and my 135 watt 2x12 Twin was 75 lbs. (18 lb. difference). The NV112 (80 watts, 42 lbs.) seems to be sort of a break through. But I have a hybrid Music Man 112 RD that is 100 watts and 44 lbs.

Going to head cabinets solves many problems. A Dual head (100 watts) is 46 lbs. and my Super Twin head (180 watts) is 50 lbs. I have two 15" Marrs cabs that are 24 lbs. each. And a heavy duty Eminence 15" in a closed-back slotted cab that weighs 48 lb. These split rigs take two hands or two trips, but seem more manageable to me than the big Peavey ss amps, and will give more tone and volume than two NV 112s (42 lbs. each).

Speaking of hybrids, how about something like a Vibrolux chassis that has both tube pre amp and a low-power tube power amp (one or two 6L6s for 20-40 watts), plus some kind of third stage solid state boost - maybe a powered speaker in a separate cabinet? That way you get the interaction of the pre and power tubes, but also get a lightweight solid state boost.

I have been experimenting with a SS main amp for power and those creamy low mids & lows and in parallel, a lightweight low power tube amp (currently a brown Princeton at low volume) to add the sparkling highs and the even harmonic content where it is most easily heard. Extremely good!

TC

PS Dan T. I recently heard one of those THD heads for guitar and almost fell off of my pack-a-seat...it sounded so good. Which output tubes do you like in your BiValve?

Great thread here, made more so by a class act steel player and human being.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR><SMALL>Never again would I have those crystalline,
crackling highs, the beauty of the breathing sound of the tubes, the
warmth.....And my career continued until 1988!</SMALL><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

. . . and a celebrator of English language to boot! Lloyd, you are welcome to visit my English classroom anytime!

TC, it all depends what I am going for. Currently my default rig is an old Tungsol 5881 and a new KT88. The Tungsol breaks up early, with a very sweet, warm drive, and the KT 88 basically doesn't break up until the very end, when it has a great Hiwatt, aggressive distortion. It has a fat, fat low end which I like.

<SMALL> Yeah, that's it, use the "Fender Twin" model. He doesn't even know his signal is going straight into the Podxt from that DI box. Look at him, he's happier than hell..-Well Known Anonymous Engineer-</SMALL>

EJL

David said:

<SMALL>Speaking of hybrids, how about something like a Vibrolux chassis that has both tube pre amp and a low-power tube power amp (one or two 6L6s for 20-40 watts), plus some kind of third stage solid state boost - maybe a powered speaker in a separate cabinet? That way you get the interaction of the pre and power tubes, but also get a lightweight solid state boost.</SMALL>

That's exactly what I do these days when I want to play clean and loud. I run my THD Bivalve into one half of the THD 2X12" cab, then run from the line out on the BiValve into a little AER acoustic amp (100-200 watts?) which then powers the other half of the THD cabinet. Very light, and sounds really good.

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www.tyack.com

Lately my favorite sound is a Mesa 20/20 driving a pair of hemp cone alnico Tone Tubbies. It doesn't get super loud and clean, but at moderate volumes it's really sweet. My preamp is a Mesa too - all tube stuff.

The only solid state amp I've ever used much is my Webb. I could carry it to gigs easily when I was young man, but these days it's just too heavy. It's a real pretty sounding amp for clean country sounds. If that was all I played, I'd probably split it into two cabinets and use it more often.

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<font size="1"><img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6)</font>

WOW!! So many Techies and Tonies all in one place! Also, the time line is great … from tubes in class A to AB etc. with AU/AT/AX, V6/L6/81/+, Red Base Specials, Mil equivalent, output transformers (lamination type & configuration, wire type/size/insulation/winding structure/potting), damping, transient response, harmonic distortion, … nostalgia is setting in. Did anyone mention McIntosh, or did I miss it?

Then to the semiconductors … germanium died young, silicon rules, goodbye output transformers, hello low impedance inputs, goodbye filament hum, hello hiss, hello toroidal power transformers, and less problems re replacing deformed electrolytic filter capacitors … quite a journey!

Add to the above assortment, speaker size/magnet type and structure/coil wire type, shape/cone material/bobbin material and size/cabinets = open back, closed back, plywood, solid wood, plastic, tuned, ported, single, multiple, bi-amped, with and without horns … electrostatics anyone?

Now attach to any combination of the above your favorite steel (different structures, mechanics, pickups, bars, string types/gauges, quantity, scale lengths, with and without volume/tone controls, different volume/tone pedals, cable types and lengths, effects.

Let’s not forget the varieties of musical style/taste involved, from the Bakersfield, to the Texas folk, to the Nashville varieties, to Rock, Blues, Hawaiian, and some big band, etc; then there are the styles of J Byrd, Billy Robinson, Julian Tharpe, Curly Chalker, and Bill Stafford that are not the main stream tone/sound.

Plus we have the venue environment = everything from the bedroom, to the bar room, flatbed, outside stage, concert hall, recording studio(s) of great variety.

Pity the poor chaps at the front end of this chaos = the steel player, trying to satisfy themselves, the band, the sound men, the producer, oh yeah, and the customer/fan.

If there were a single amp/speaker combo that had the capability of being “best” for any given player in any given situation, the player would have to spend all their time learning to control/set up the beast, and much less time improving their technique/performing skills.

I have a problem with most amp/speaker combos; my low string on the 14 stringer is a 112 gauge C … that is low, low, low. A large number of “steel amps” don’t know what to do with that frequency range … speakers either. Many U12 & 14 players face this problem of low end capability. It appears that most steel amps (and other stringed instrument amps) do not address the frequency range problem. Has anyone tried a keyboard amp?

Aside from the amp/speaker damping issue, there is also the combining of frequencies in the speaker itself; if the cone is activated (moves back and forth) by a low note (say 100 Hz), and a high note is added at the same time (say 1000 Hz), the amount of Doppler on the high frequency will be a function of how much excursion the cone makes (think volume) … so speaker quantity, size, etc. will effect tone differently with volume.

Does the amp have a tendency to change the volume and or phase relationship of frequencies within the spectrum as a function of volume? Remember the “loudness” control? It was to compensate for our ear/brain spectral sensitivity at different volume levels (Fletcher Munson curves). Most steel/amp/speaker combos have their “sweet spots” re volume/tone...

My feelings are; that if “IT” is NOT in the hands/heart then no instrument and subsequent equipment collection/selection is going to help much. If “IT” is NOT in the player/instrument, then no subsequent signal chain equipment will help much. However, poor equipment can sure diminish the desire for playing progress!

Chris; I suspect that the “sound” you want to get is probably associated with something you heard and liked in your past … we tend to like what is familiar, call it “good”, which leaves everything else as “less than good”. My personal feeling is that neither tube, nor semiconductor, nor is hybrid “best” … there are good and not so good in all categories, and for different purposes. Time goes by; technology tends to change, some of which gets employed in instruments/amps/etc. …even in sound cards and computer speakers. That which was an “art” tends to become a science with time, complete with a language, and methods to measure the parameters involved so that they can be repeated, and compared in an objective way. With the measurement equipment and software available today, “that sound” can be defined, but the musicians (statistically speaking here) will not likely be interested in learning the new language.

For some, the joy is in the playing, for some in the performing, for some of us in playing with the toys … I am one of the latter, I like my toys and analysis.

It is interesting that one can tell that the steel player is ______ , even when heard thru a transistor radio with a 4” speaker!

.<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Garth Highsmith on 09 January 2006 at 08:57 PM.]</p></FONT>

Garth that's what I figured, too. But I still prefer the BiValve. THe Flexi has an absolutely amazing sound, especially for overdriven stuff, but the BiValve sounds sweeter to my ears for clean sounds. This is with the pedal steel, with lap steel I like the two evenly. The Flexi has an incredibly sensitive input (it's quite high impedence), and it reacts quite differently to different guitars. I've heard it with a number of guitars where it totally rocks, and I think there's just an issue in terms of the pickups in my Franklins (Laurence 705) and the amp.

Note I'm not saying that it doesn't sound great, it does, but the BiValve has an edge with my Franklin for clean stuff.

For a loud BiValve, just get a THD stereo 2X12, get a cheap light transistor power amp, run the line out from the BiValve into the power amp, and have one speaker driven by the BiValve and one by the transistor. I did this at the Little Red Hen a few weeks ago and it kicked *&^% with a loud band where I wanted to play clean.


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www.tyack.com

<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Dan Tyack on 14 April 2005 at 04:02 PM.]</p></FONT>

That does it Dan, I gotta check out one of these dang THD BiValves. BTW How do you integrate effects processors (reverb/delay?)or do you even use outboard stuff? I know it has an effects loop. I really like the EFEX control on the Walker preamp. I don't think the THD has a knob for the loop. does it?

Ed, you are the man! Well put!!! You are right, so many choices. I have owned at times a dozen amps. Ranging from Fender tube to Peavey solid state. Somedays I could make them all sound good and somedays nothing sounds good to me. Oddly enough I seem to get a similar sound from anything I play thru! There it is, most tone is in the hands and minds of the players. Of course, I do always like my sound, but there it is anyway, I am stuck with it.

Just finished a gig, the leader told me I could use just 1 amp. The gig had 9 steel songs, the rest 6 string. I have a SF Deluxe, a PV Bandit, and my NV112.
The Deluxe breaks up too easy, the reverb swith is broken on the Bandit, so I used the NV112.
I was surprised how well it did on 6str, of course with major tone adjustments, but it sounded a lot like the bandit, and the tube screamer worked really well. The guitar is a Carvin strat with stacked humbuckers.
JP