The Steel Guitar Forum

.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 17 November 2004 at 08:14 PM.]</p></FONT>

.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 17 November 2004 at 08:15 PM.]</p></FONT>

Jim,

Actually, I had already put the Gent back in stock. I've been playing a Les Paul Deluxe and/or a Samick L5-style jazz guitar... but missing "that great Gretsch sound"... and a Bigsby!

The Monkees model had Supertron pickups, which were supposed to be hotter. I actually saw a photo on the 'net of Nesmith playing a Monkees model... up to then, I had only seen him pictured with the White Falcon, the 12 string, and some very early shots of him with a sunburst Gretsch.

I spoke earlier of Stills and Nesmith, but no true Beatles fan could fail to fall under the Gretsch "spell" either! George loved them, especially the Tennesseean and that Duo-Sonic that he played for most of his life. They were/are the quintessential rockabilly guitar.

Good looking Washburn, Jim.

Actually Atkins modified his filtertrons on several instruments to low impedence. He stated in several interviews that he recorded a LOT of his work with these. If I had to take a guess, I would say that the input on the Ampex 350 electronics and the Ampex 300 three track that he used at his home studio up into the 1960s was the reason. In order to go direct into the electronics and to tape you would need to drop the pickup impedence down to match the input transformer. I have a lot of these old tape machines. The input has a three position switch that goes between a 50-150ohm mic and some higher impedence line signals. When you compare the recordings of the 70s to the 60s you start to hear all the solid state stuff come into play and a lot of the beautiful tone of the older recordings goes in a different direction. My favorite recordings are the Bill Porter/Jim Malloy engineered ones.

Just some more info on why the Atkins sound is so totally his own on a lot of these recordings. Not all can be traced to just the sound of a Gretsch with a stock filtertron on it.

Rick.

The early Gretsch that George played was a Duo-Jet. He bought it from a sailor in Liverpool that had brought it back from the States. The Sailors with the White Star line used to bring back all sorts of American stuff like records and musical instruments from New York and sell them in Liverpool.

The Duo Sonic was a small Fender Electric.

Harrisons Duo Jet I believe was in the possession of Klaus Voorman for a long time and then was restored by installing either one or both of the old DeArmonds that had sometime been removed and the instrument was returned to Harrison. He used it on the cover of one of his recordings.
Some one feel free to check me on this info.

Jim Phelps.

OK so I just saw your barb.

Actually I did not have a clue where the Gretsch instruments were made so I stand by my "probably made in Korea" original post. The Samick company there makes almost 70% of all the arched instruments in the world. I assumed that they ghostbuilt Gretsch.

I did a search and found that the USA made Gretsch guitars were ghost built by Heritage Guitars until the quality control varied and the Terade company in Japan took over.

The USA made Gretsch guitars for ZZ Top and Aerosmith were ghostbuilt by the JBG company.

The lower line instruments in the Gretsch line ARE made in Korea. Upper line stuff is made in Japan.

So sorry for not knowing EXACTLY where these instruments are made. I have not owned a Gretsch instrument for a lot of years and have no real interest in the repro line and make my living actually playing so I don't have time to know everything about every guitar in the universe.

I will say that I have repaired several of these new Gretsch "knock offs" used by some of the local retro guys and find them to be of good quality. Just my opinions.

Bill, I believe you're right about that. He states it in the big book on Gretsch guitars. There's also a cool Traveling Wilburys photo with all of them holding vintage Gretsch instruments, presumably his.

Sorry, I meant Duo-Jet. I do know the difference!

3 places of manufacture on the Gretsch stuff:

1) US for the "custom shop" Falcon and 6120 at $10k ea.

2) Japan for the "reissue" stuff. This White Falcon has the serial number and "Made In Japan" on the back of the headstock.

3) Korea (presumably by Samick) for the Electromatic series, which has the Gretsch look but is made up of entirely new designs. In my opinion, not nearly as nice as the Japanese stuff.

.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 17 November 2004 at 08:15 PM.]</p></FONT>

Phelps--no barb intended.

I spend so much time hustling trying to make a living playing music that I don't have much time to research everything and know it all. You are quite on the defensive to think I am putting down anyone who does not do it for a living. Where the heck that came from I have no idea.

Aside from that, the Filtertrons and other low imp. pickups including those of Les Paul are just the same pickups with reduced windings. Actually it is a great idea for a clean tone and such, but has never caught on with the massess that usually want high gain and cranked R/R stuff. 99% of the Atkins and about 100% of the Les Paul stuff is just clean guitar stuff.

I had a friend here in the Atlanta area (Bob Richardson,deceased owner of Mastersound Studios) that worked for Columbia records and traveled around with Les Paul for a few months doing some booking and record business. He told all these great stories of Les going in radio supply shops and buying all sorts of stuff to keep his multi channel (8 track Ampex 300) working. He bought an XLR connector and screwed it to the upper area of his Les Paul guitar for a mic that would always be connected to the guitar so he could talk into it. Also he told me about the contraption that Paul had bolted to his guitar that contained all the switching for bringing in the different channels of the multitrack for doing his multi track guitar stuff live.

.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 17 November 2004 at 08:15 PM.]</p></FONT>

Put all our knowledge together, and there's a treasure trove of "learnin'" right here!

Forget what....??

Rick....do you know why I wanted a new Gretsch? Because of Mike Nesmith! Not many would admit to something like that (though I am a huge Setzer fan as well!). No disrespect to Stephen Stills was intended....just surprising that he would have a very expensive White Falcon model vs. a more reasonably-priced Gretsch (if there is such a thing).

One thing has always interested me....many of today's Gretsch players have a Gretsch because George Harrison played a Tennessean and a Country Gent during the Beatles initial rise to superstardom. Yet, the "Beatles Gear" book notes that when the money started rolling in, George quickly dumped those two guitars and went with other brands (including his "Rocky" Strat), citing that the more he listened to the sound he was getting, the more he thought it sounded horrible.

So, we have George himself quited as saying his guitar sound on those early Beatles records was definitely not to his liking, yet thousands still play those models to sound like him. Interesting, I think!

And yes...I still want one. Too bad you sold that Monkees model Rick....if it had the original truss rod cover and pickguard, I'd have a check to you yesterday!

joe

btw....this is not to say that George didn't like all his Gretsch guitars....he was obviously very fond of his black Duo-Jet.

Joe

I can tell you with absolute authority that George played Gretsch guitars from the moment he could get his hands on one - because of Chet Atkins! (Listen to his 'Chet-type' solo on 'All My Loving'.)

It's difficult for Americans to appreciate our perspective in the UK back in those days, but we didn't really think of Chet as 'country' - just as a great guitar-player. His albums sold well, and 'Teensville' (1959) was a major influence on a lot of players (myself included). Chet was also heavily featured on Everly Brothers records - we didn't differentiate between rock'n'roll and the Nashville product. It was all just great American 'pop' to us! In fact, a lot of us weren't particularly aware of Nashville as being a country music mecca until many years later.

I can confirm all this, because George and I spoke at great length about music, guitars, Gretsches, and Chet in particular, when I worked with him in '76. We were almost exactly the same age, and had fallen under the same music's spell at the same time. Lonnie Donegan got us all started, then we went on to the stuff from the USA.

I've heard it said often that George's liking for Gretsch was a mystery, but a lot of us wanted one back then. Eddie Cochran and Duane Eddy were both influential in the UK, but Chet was the Main Man.

In our conversations, we also both agreed that our respective Gretsches (my Jet Firebird, and his Duo-Jet and Country Gentleman) looked a lot better than they actually were!

I traded mine for a Gibson Super 400....

RR

Roger- Thanks for the "primary source material". Unless someone else has had a conversation with George about this, I think that settles it! I AM curious as to when you worked with George, and in what capacity. Email me if you wish.

The Gretsches are super cool, aren't they? It's a major part of the allure for me. With these new guitars, I think they've brought the build quality up to par with the cool vibe.

Did I omit Chet? Omigosh. AND CHET!

Joe, Mike Nesmith is a great songwriter and not a bad guitar player. I ain't ashamed of being influenced by him. "Some of Shelley's Blues," "Don't Call On Me", "Different Drum" and "Sweet Young Thing" are some of my favorite tunes. Of course, I also liked most of the First National Band stuff.

One more thing... I personally don't care one whit as to where (what country) an instrument is made! I've owned a bunch of U.S. made Gibsons and Fenders, and some of them were pretty sorry. At present I have 2 Fenders (Japan), the Falcon (Japan), a modified '72 Les Paul Deluxe (US) and the Samick Lasalle L5 knockoff. I recently sold a nice 70's US-made Gibson Howard Roberts because I preferred the Korean Samick over it!! This mostly-offshore group of guitars contains some of the nicest instruments I've ever touched, regardless of origin... and I've been touchin' 'em for almost 40 years now.

All that being said... I DO love a nice Super 400!

Rick<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Rick McDuffie on 26 August 2004 at 12:50 PM.]</p></FONT>

.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 17 November 2004 at 08:15 PM.]</p></FONT>

Rick

Back in the mid-seventies, I was in a band with Neil Innes (we were called 'Neil Innes and Fatso'). Neil is a prolific song-writer and a former 'Bonzo Dog Doo Dah Band' member.

He wrote the music for the Monty Python material, hence a connection with Eric Idle. Eric and George were very close pals, and I knew George from Beatle days when we'd be on the same shows occasionally ('62 to '64).

Eric had the notion of writing George into a couple of skits on his 'Rutland Weekend Television' shows (a Python 'spin-off' - Neil & Fatso were the resident band for these), and George came and played shows with us, too. He loved steel (even with me playing it!), and would ask me and Billy Bremner to show him finger-style 'Tele' licks.

A thoroughly nice man, and he always acted like a total 'nobody'. We were a long way from being close pals, but it was a very enjoyable experience - we'd talk about Lonnie Donegan and our eyes would light up! He told of waiting for hours outside Donegan's Liverpool hotel in the hope of an autograph - I'd done the same thing myself!

He just loved talking music and guitars, and we all had a great time.



RR

Cool story, Roger. I heard someone say in an interview (I think it was Eric Clapton) "Lonnie Donegan has a lot to answer for"!

One of the neat things about this Forum is that you truly don't ever know who you're talking to, or what they've done. I've seen some "hometown heroes" (myself included) act like know-it-alls, and some REAL pros conduct themselves with great humility. You're in the latter category!

Best to keep your pride in check on here.

It IS interesting that someone like George had his musical heroes, too... Lonnie D., Carl Perkins, Chet. John and Paul were heavily influenced by the Everly Brothers in their duet style. On some recording I've got, you hear John say "Take it, Phil!" to Paul. That's cool.

Thanks!

R

(Edited for clarity)<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Rick McDuffie on 28 August 2004 at 10:50 AM.]</p></FONT>

.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 17 November 2004 at 08:15 PM.]</p></FONT>

I appreciate your kind words, Rick.

To be realistic, though, George - and the other three - were, to an extent, in the right place at the right time. They had the 'moment', as they say. I'd find it unnatural if George hadn't had 'idols' like all the rest of us, and it's surely an essantial part of that learning process. But for that 'turn in the road', we might never have heard George's name....

A further word of explanation: Rutland is England's smallest county - the title 'Rutland Weekend Television' was a spoof of 'London Weekend Television', one of Britain's major TV companies.

From these beginnings came 'The Rutles' - many of the songs eventually used in the film were written by Neil and we performed them for the TV series. (I particularly liked 'Your Mother Should Go' )

I was never a 'proper' Rutle ( ) only a 'seminal' one - but there is a 'still' used in the film of us (Neil Innes & Fatso) dressed in plaid band-jackets. I was the fat one (hence the name?) with beard and spectacles.....

Fun days!

RR

I never saw "The Rutles" movie, but I've been told that I should. Now I'll definitely rent it!
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Rick McDuffie on 28 August 2004 at 10:57 AM.]</p></FONT>

"The Rutles" is one of my favorite movies of all time....it's right up there with "Spinal Tap".

Joe

Good to see the testosterone is still pumping in you old boys...but hey take it easy on young bucks like me...

I'm only 20-something but I certainly know who Les Paul is and believe it or not... even own a Les Paul *Recording* with a Bigsby, just like the man's. Here's another surprise for ya Joe- I'm in the market for a Stills White Falcon. Even have a clean 6120-60 to trade towards it.

"he don't like the young folks I know... heard it one night on his radio show"
Gram Parsons.

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"Sounds alright to me"

I've found my guitars too, local luthier Juha Jottonen builds some of the best instruments I've ever had in my hands. His work can be found here: www.lottonen.com Models Centurion-B and NY are mine.