The Steel Guitar Forum

John, I think you mis-read the quote, with its double negative:

<SMALL>“One of the great problems is not that we aren't using good musicians on the recordings today, it is that they have been trained by the young rock producers to come up with the pop sound.” </SMALL>

He wasn't saying that they are bad musicians, he was criticizing the "young rock producers".

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR><SMALL>
It' not the "S" in NCS which is inappropriate--it's the "C."
</SMALL><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now, hold on... Personally, I have more of a problem with the "N".
Why does adding piano lines that Pete Johnson was playing in 1935, and 70's Motown bass lines make something "New" ?
-John
<font size=1> Maybe the C stands for corrupted...

<SMALL>Music is meant to be listened to. Not watched.</SMALL>

Yes, yes, yes.

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<font size=-1>Bill L | My steel page | Email | My music | Steeler birthdays | Over 50?</font>

Sorry about the mis-read. I had just finished a looong session.

It's really interesting about digital recording. I used to just have ear fatigue after a long day--now I add eye and wrist fatigue to the list.

My apologies to the poster.

The biggest problem I have with it is the hound dog singing with the fake falsetto. It makes my hair stand on end. (Garth Brooks, Aaron Tippin, Joe Diffie,) etc. It is all fake and uncalled for. The second thing is the use of all studio musicians. I realzie that they are used to save time and money at the studio, and all are creme of the crop pickers, but in the end, all of the music sounds the same. There is no definning sound of any artist band. It used to be, that when you heard Carl Smiths band, you knew who it was before he started singing, the same with Hank Snow, or Conway Twitty, or Johnny Cash, or Ray Price, to name a few. Now it is just an any band fit all deal. Also, around here there is a problem with playing the new songs in many places. You can't play these upbeat genric country songs and play them at the very low volume (about like a radio) that most clubs around here want you to, and still get any feeling in them. They lose all any potential they had. I recently sat in with a very good band here in Indy that played a lot of new country, and played it loud without any complaints from the croud or management,with a great singer singing them, (not a hound dogger) and I found it was a pleasure to play them. This is a rare situation around here though. All I ever seem to hear is TURN IT DOWN. I enjoy playing a great Ray Price song or maybe a Jim Reeves song at a low volume with a lot of feeling, but you can't do the new stuff that way.

Regarding multi-band compression, here's what I hear on the radio:

The singer is loud, front and center. In between phrases, the accompaniment swells to the foreground. When the vocal returns, the instrument volume decreases immediately. It's like the vocal pushes the instruments out of the way. This is very unnatural sounding. Real music doesn't sound like that.

I was listening to an AJ tune on the radio this morning. Paul was playing some very nice steel licks, but the last half of the last note on every lick was cut in half, volume wise, by the vocal. Even in the steel solo, when the fiddles came in Paul's sustaining note immediately dropped in volume by about 50%.

Now, I know that Paul's an incredible player, and he could do that deliberately if he wanted to, but somehow I doubt that he did. It's not "musical" sounding, and Paul's a very musical player (no flames, please).

Consider the position this puts us in, as live musicians. It is blatently impossible to recreate that kind of mix live, even if we wanted to. If the public is accepting this synthetic crap as a standard for "good sound", then all live music will sound "inferior" by comparison.

The Alan Lomax quote suddenly seems very relevant to this discussion:

<SMALL>We now have cultural machines so powerful that one singer can reach everybody in the world, and make all the other singers feel inferior because they're not like him. Once that gets started, he gets backed by so much cash and so much power that he becomes a monstrous invader from outer space, crushing the life out of all the other human possibilities.</SMALL>

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<small><img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

This is a facinating thread. I have playing for a number of years but never knew that radio mucked with the 'sound' of a song! Can someone elaborate more as to how a radio station re-processes a song??

As far as NCS, some I like some I don't. The same for OCS. I agree with Randy Pettit's observations. Some NCS has too many strings. Not enough separation of the instruments.

Just my $.02



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Bill Sampler
Carter S10 Double Body 4p/5k

well here's a different note. Just picked up a copy of "Daryle Singletary"
(That's why I sing this way)
OK, I'll be pushing 58 this December, so I'm sort of stuck in a time warp from the music and "Steel" parts. even though this is a fairly new performer,,,,the music is far from new. and has that sort of ol sound. The Various steel parts are superb, and the bottom line is the entire CD is 9.5 on a 1 to 10. it has a little of the new flavor added to some fantastic Traditional material. if you can listen to A-11, and when I heard Old Violin, I darn near fell off my pac-a-seat. I just hope that this new individual dont change, and stays on the road he's headed. yep,,,its worth it. and for my two cents,,,,has my vote and my following as well.. just listening to "I never go around mirrors" , an old KW tune, and the steel part ,,,well you'll just have to trust me on this one....

Joe
Derby SD-10, profex ll, Lexicon MPX 100,
Nashville 400, Fender twin

It just ain't TEXAS MUSIC.

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Steeling is still legal in Arizona

b0b, that was an excellent example of what dynamic range compression does to a mix.

I decicded to see what all the fuss is about, so I turned on KNCS 93.9 here.
What's up with the pitch? The first 5 songs are all 30 or 40 cents sharp. I have to close my eyes to play along. Surely they're not speeding up a tape or a turntable in the digital age.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Earnest Bovine on 23 July 2002 at 02:14 PM.]</p></FONT>

<SMALL>Music is meant to be listened to. Not watched.</SMALL>

I often thought about how much this Video technology changed music. Not for the better either!

I can remember when you heard a song and wondered what the band looked like.

Us ugly folks don't have a chance anymore.
People now "listen with their eyes".

It's not just the kids that do this.

I've read many comments by folks here on the Forum, knocking a performer because she was fat, or he had too many tattoos..

Joey,
I often wonder how well the sales would have been for "Ole Brother" if it had not been for the Movie first & of course the Video to follow. <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Theresa Galbraith on 23 July 2002 at 02:59 PM.]</p></FONT>

<SMALL>What's up with the pitch? The first 5 songs are all 30 or 40 cents sharp.</SMALL>

Yes...at least. The #1 "country" station here does that--putting the pitch between the frets.

My guess is that it's some stupidity about trying to sound or feel more "up" than the other guys.

The same station boosts the treble through the roof. So, if you get your EQ on your vehicle stereo set about right for normal listening and happen to stop on that station, it is glaringly bright. (Just what NCS needs: an even brighter sound.)

Of course, this is not exactly on-topic, but the station's tricking just heaps "S" upon "S."

<SMALL>"Ole Brother"</SMALL>

"Ole Brother?" Ole my.

Theresa,
I suspect without the movie, the "Oh Brother" CD would have gone un-noticed.

I'll admit that I first learned of Scruggs Style Banjo when, as a "Rock Guitar Playing Kid", a saw the movie "Bonnie & Clyde" and then Deliverance".

That led me to investigate Bluegrass and follow the trail back to Monroe, the Stanleys,etc.

Funny how one media affects another.

I am checking with our engineer to see what is done as far as our compression on the air is concerned. To be honest, unless I am traveling, I rarely listen to the radio. As far as speeding up the songs, it isn't done at all to change the sound, but, to get more music in per hour. It means extra music...OR extra commercials. LOL Pat

<SMALL> As far as speeding up the songs, it isn't done at all to change the sound, but, to get more music in per hour. It means extra music...OR extra commercials.</SMALL>

In the days of tapes and turntables, that was true. But now the tempo/length and the pitch of a digital recording can be changed independently. I don't know about the tempo, but somebody is messing with the pitch.

In general, i'm not down with busy mixes, fake vocalizations(dreaded anteres), or bad-rock arrangements. There is also what i would call a surround sound effect where it seems everything is coming at you from every direction. I don't care for that.

Still, i hear songs and music i like from time to time.

Holy smoke, now they're speeding the music up just to make time for more commercials (or more songs)? Talk about diddling with the artist's intent! So now we have dynamic range compression, data compression, and time compression. What'll they think of next? I like to refer to pop radio material as "squashed", and now there's even more reason!

Incidentally, there's another mindset out there in broadcasting which boasts about how they DON'T compress or otherwise process the music. Stations like classical, 'adult contemporary', and traditional jazz. I wish they'd all do that.

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<font size=-1>Bill L | My steel page | Email | My music | Steeler birthdays | Over 50?</font>

I could go into the whole rant. I agree with just about every thing that has been mentioned now and in the past. One of the things that has changed is that club musicians could play what they heard on the radio. I'm primarily a Tele player and there is now way I can play most of the "rock" guitar parts that I hear. Of course, there are virtually no clubs anymore so there are no club musicians like there used to be. In addition to the simplicity I think the other factor is honesty.
That my take on it.

Steve G

Now for my 2cts.
Great topic.
Rule #1: Always follow the money. That NCS is what the vast market is buying, even though I don't like it. (Hey, they didn't ask me if they could play it or not). This too shall pass.

Specifically what I don't like:
Over produced, over mixed, too many instruments on one song. I counted a banjo, a dobro, a PSG, and a big string section on on a NCS CMT video I saw., in addition to the rock drummer, the tele's, the booming bass.

Another specific, many songs sound too much like rap. Childish rhymes.

There is no way a road band could reproduce all that crap. Might as well lip synch it or do karaoke.

I like to hear each instrument.

Maybe this is way off.....

Before mixing boards and stacks of black speakers, each player was in charge of his own sound. The vocal sounded centered. The bass a little to one side, the guitar man, to another side, the drummer in the middle, piano man way to one side.

The NCS is all mixed and mashed and comes out the big black speakers. Might as well be playing a stereo track from a CD. I think this miixed/mashed sound is what we hear today.

I saw Acoustic Alchemy live a few weeks ago. If you know their music, it is a classical guitar and a steel string guiatr playing great duets. Well, they had the big stack of speakers in a very small venue, with a deaf idiot at the controls of the mixing board. I left after 5 songs. Over mixed Sh** coming out of those speakers.

In contrast, I saw Lyle Lovett and the LArge Band a few weeks ago, in a huge indoor venue, and I could hear every instrument. The volume was comfortably low. Great performance. Not NCS.

Steve, if you played through an amp or box with amp and cab sims you could get that Rock sound.

Thanks folks<BUMP>

I know I'll not be making any friends on this Board,but I've got to say that it was exactly the three chord arrangements and the constant dum/ching rhythm that made old style country a laughing stock outside the diehard fans.
OK it's not my Country anyway, but you can get a laugh at any British gig by mentioning Country & Western and playing dum/ching in A and a bass run to D.
You can play a Mary Chapin Carpenter song at any gig, Folk, Rock, Jazz, you name it!
Sorry guys but you need to be aware that Country haters are a pretty large group, and it's mostly old style Country they hate.
Cheers
Dave