Gibson Ultratone Build

[Mark Frederick Jr]

I don't know how much experience some of you have with 3d printing, I assume it is a wide range from zero to expert. I am not either, but I'll share my limited knowledge so far.

I thought when I bought the printer last year that is would be like a paper printer, but for plastic. I now know that is a common misconception, and there is often a lot of trial and error that goes into a successful print. I don't want to sound pessimistic though, it is really an amazing tool. As I post, please feel free to ask questions or share your knowledge, I know there are a lot of folks here who probably can offer some great advice.

Mark,
I've never used a 3d printer but I think they are a marvelous invention. Around 2004 I had a project that spec'd resin products. I found the name of a man who worked for a plastic company and did resin on the side. I contacted him and he invited me to tour the plastics company. The highlight of the tour was a prototype 3d printer. It was a large and sloppy machine but the true value of it was the research that got it that far. You could see it printing layer upon layer of the part it was manufacturing. From that research 3d printers have evolved into machines that are inexpensive enough that most anyone interested can afford one. Companies are now building houses and other buildings with them.

I don't have advise for you on how to use your 3d printer more efficiently but from the looks of your parts you have learned quite a bit about the 3d printer already. Well done!

Thank you! This has been a really fun process. That's a very cool story you shared, I can't imagine what that must have felt like before the technology was out there> I imagine it must have seemed like the future was being born in front of you!

[Jack Hanson]

Does anyone have an accurate body thickness measurement? I am seeing a bunch of numbers.

The measurements below are from this 1954 mahogany bodied, ivory topped Ultratone 7-string conversion. The top surface, of course, is perfectly flat until the point its headstock breaks behind the nut. Its break angle is about 5 degrees. The body thickness at the butt is about 1.72 inches. It maintains this thickness until the area beneath the 12th fret, in which it begins its gradual slope to the area halfway between the nut and the fist fret (where the headstock angle breaks towards the end of the headstock). The body is about .87 inches at this point. It gradually tapers to about .62 inches at the tip of the headstock. Hope this helps.

[Mark Frederick Jr]

Does anyone have an accurate body thickness measurement? I am seeing a bunch of numbers.

The measurements below are from this 1954 mahogany bodied, ivory topped Ultratone 7-string conversion. The top surface, of course, is perfectly flat until the point its headstock breaks behind the nut. Its break angle is about 5 degrees. The body thickness at the butt is about 1.72 inches. It maintains this thickness until the area beneath the 12th fret, in which it begins its gradual slope to the area halfway between the nut and the fist fret (where the headstock angle breaks towards the end of the headstock). The body is about .87 inches at this point. It gradually tapers to about .62 inches at the tip of the headstock. Hope this helps.

That is EXACTLY what I was hoping for, thank you for the details, and congratulations on that beautiful instrument!!

[Chris Clem]

"One mystery I am looking to solve is the hardware I cannot make. On the fretboard, it looks like they used 'mirror screws', which have a small flat cap. The smallest I can find is a 10mm diameter cap. It looks like it is closer to 8mm, or about .3", based on the perspective in the pics. The other mystery is the decorative cap nuts that hold the covers down. Looks like it may just be some sort of lamp hardware. Anyone have any leads or ideas? I am googling, but nothing that seems just right yet."

This looks about right for those plugs at the 12th fret. I didn't read all the reply's (may have been answered already) These are 11/32" dia or 8mm.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/261318263116?v ... dc9cd6f5b6

[Mark Frederick Jr]

"One mystery I am looking to solve is the hardware I cannot make. On the fretboard, it looks like they used 'mirror screws', which have a small flat cap. The smallest I can find is a 10mm diameter cap. It looks like it is closer to 8mm, or about .3", based on the perspective in the pics. The other mystery is the decorative cap nuts that hold the covers down. Looks like it may just be some sort of lamp hardware. Anyone have any leads or ideas? I am googling, but nothing that seems just right yet."

This looks about right for those plugs at the 12th fret. I didn't read all the reply's (may have been answered already) These are 11/32" dia or 8mm.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/261318263116?v ... dc9cd6f5b6

That is an interesting find!

[Mark Frederick Jr]

Man, I am sorry for the delays to anyone who has taken an interest in this. I know on builder's forums there are plenty of dead posts. I am pretty sure I had something worse than a sinus infection, because I am still not 100%, and I didn't have a sense of smell for a bit. I am a teacher, my wife is an ER nurse, and we have three kids, so some weeks we just bring home some nasty stuff. Anyway, I was sick enough to lack all motivation, but not sick enough to get out of the normal grind. I'm going to try and get moving this weekend and keep the project moving forward, at least the weather has been nice here in upstate NY.

Here is a general question; What color is the lighter part of the blue covers?

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Is it gray or light blue to you? I am hearing both as answers, and I don't know what is right! Maybe someone who has seen one in person has some insight there?

[Jack Hanson]

...congratulations on that beautiful instrument!!

I purchased the blonde '54 as a husk, stripped of its tuners and all its electronics. It's really sort of a beater, which is why I made the executive decision to convert it to a 7-string. Forumite Dave Peterson in Arizona fabricated the new 7-string bridge. I installed new Gotohs (it took most of two different sets), new electronic guts, and a custom pickup from Jerry Sentell -- which is sort of a cross between the wide-oval/racetrack pickup and a P-90. It's not much to look at, but it sounds wonderful and it plays like a dream, so I'm reasonably pleased with it. It sorta has the look of a Fender Custom Shop "Relic," an instrument with new components that looks like it's been dragged down a gravel road for a while tied to the back bumper of a F-150.

[Jack Hanson]

Is it gray or light blue to you? I am hearing both as answers, and I don't know what is right! Maybe someone who has seen one in person has some insight there?

I have a few of those Century covers, and I'd call it gray (the Ultratones are two-tone dark red and a similar gray). But since I've frequently been accused by numerous people (mainly females) of being color blind, take that with a grain of salt.

[Mark Frederick Jr]

Is it gray or light blue to you? I am hearing both as answers, and I don't know what is right! Maybe someone who has seen one in person has some insight there?

I have a few of those Century covers, and I'd call it gray (the Ultratones are two-tone dark red and a similar gray). But since I've frequently been accused by numerous people (mainly females) of being color blind, take that with a grain of salt.

My wife says the same about me! Thank you, that answer works for me, I kind of thought any of the blue tones I saw in the gray may just be reflective from the body.

[Mark Frederick Jr]

Got some electronics goodies courtesy of mojotone today. Well, not a courtesy, I had to pay for them.

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Pots, caps, jack, magnets, and knobs.

[Mark Frederick Jr]

Unfortunately I ordered P-90 parts and screws from a company that hasn't delivered them, or answered emails about the order that was paid for two weeks back. That's disappointing, I left a phone message today, hopefully they fix it. I have to fabricate a few parts for the pickup still, like the baseplate and the metal spacer bar.

I grabbed the least attractive piece of poplar to start with. I can work around all the sapwood and knots, but the piece is just shy of the width I need on it's own. So I have a little chunk I cut off from the end, and cut off the nice part on the bandsaw. Then I gave it a quick resaw to rough dimension.

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Then I used the mighty number 7 jointer plane to make some flat and square surfaces. I have a jointer in my tiny shop, but it is a pain to wheel out and clean up after. Over the years I have just used the plane more and more, it is just quicker. Sometimes I will follow it up with some sandpaper on my fret leveling bar to be sure. I built an amish wheelbarrow for my wife a few years back with only hand tools. That whole experience gave me a lot of solid practice. I'm no Paul Sellers by any means, but between the wheelbarrow and the workbench I have gotten pretty confident, and the shavings make great wood-stove kindling.

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[Mark Frederick Jr]

Glued those up for the body blank, I will use the thickness sander to take it all down to the proper thickness. It is about 2" still, i'll take it down to 1.75".

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I turned to the headstock cover. Files take down the high spots very quickly, and the spray filler/primer has done a good job filling the low spots. You can see the contrast, but it feels very smooth after some sanding. I'll give it one more final shot of primer and sanding before the color layers.

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[Jack Hanson]

You're making wonderful progress, Mr. Frederick. Very impressive!
I'm certain that many besides myself are following along with interest.

[Mark Frederick Jr]

You're making wonderful progress, Mr. Frederick. Very impressive!
I'm certain that many besides myself are following along with interest.

Couldn't have done any of it without all of your help and guidance, I received the screw nails yesterday, thank you!! I am using the wiring I believe you provided in a past post as well. I am extremely interested to hear how the tone controls work.

[Jack Hanson]

I am extremely interested to hear how the tone controls work.

Per Gibson Electric Steel Guitars 1935 - 1967 by A.R. Duchossoir: "The BR-1/Ultratone was fitted with an innovative three-control circuitry designed to broaden the spectrum of its tonal response. The volume control was supplemented by two tone controls with different frequency cuts, thanks to their wiring and different capacitors of 0.02MFD and 0.001MFD."

In my opinion, it's more of a marketing feature than a tonal revelation. To my ear, the two tone controls don't do a heckuva lot more than a single tone control would do. An unnecessary complication, but three knobs instead of two was a little different in 1946, looked kinda cool, and probably contributed to increased sales.

[J D Sauser]

That's really interesting, I wonder what the secret was? It would be cool to have an output measurement from one, I wonder if the spec was close to a standard pickup of the day. It could also be useful to know if it was early enough that the windings were completely by hand and scatterwound or did they have machines to make everything uniform at that point. If the latter, it could be that the wind counter was a uniform set that was applied to all pickups, which would have given them a unique identity to the wider spaced bobbins. Lots to ponder there..

Output measuring is not revealing the secret. Am by NO measure a electrician, much less an electronics specialist, but from I "learned" from a day with Bill Lawrence around 2000 at his factory, one needs to take into consideration of the wire gauge, the number of windings and the type, size, material, and strength of the magnet poles. Scattered winding vs. smooth winding can have an impact on the width of the windings too.
As he put it, measuring the output and much worse the resistance (which he called it NOT being the real "impedance" of a pickup) was senseless.

I would be inclined to consider to scarify one of my UltraTone's Pre-P90's for such a research by a QUALIFIED pickup specialist with a proven track record of actual scientific knowledge (NO redneck-hillbilly-voodoo tinkerer!), to so allow for these amazing pickups being re-issued and also try to create 10 and 12 string versions.

... J-D.

I bet Curtis Novak would take a look, he does high quality work, and has been very open to making reproductions of more obscure pickups. I think his fender electric 12 pickup repro description has a statement to the effect of "I'll never make the money back I put into reproducing this pickup, but I really wanted it to be available". If you ever reach out I would love to hear about it.

Bill Lawrence was very cool, what an innovator. What was he like in person?

I'll be the first to admit I am no expert when it comes to winding pickups. I made myself a winder a few years back, and I have made a fair bunch of pickups and interesting prototypes, but I am mostly just taking the general specs of those who came before me. Seems like Alnico 2 and 42awg wire were the norm at the time, but I am still digging. The internet is so vast now that you really have to weed the guesses out of the gems. I don't have the enamel coated wire, just the poly, but it should get me into classic p90 territory at least.

In 2000 fellow forumite Robert Segal (NYC) and I had finished a crude conceptual prototype of a PSG with left-change-&-tune capability... leaving a "clean" bridge on the right.
We had presented it to 3 select name players at the Dallas show and Robert had arranged for an audience at Bill Lawrence's shop, I believe upstate NY or near upon our return.
I really looked forward to the meeting because I knew (from reading) that him and Buddy Emmons had spent time together designing pickups for PSG and I wanted to know what the goal had been (although I had a suspicion, which BL would confirm at that meeting).
We met him in a room. He had a few electric guitars around. We explained to him WHY we built what we did. And I asked him about his collaboration with BE and he confirmed to me that BE's "beef" had been to voice strings to sound more similar in timbre, meaning looking for none to "stand out", mainly the pesky high G# and the other 4 high pitched strings on E9th and also the high G and E on C6th.
I explained that I felt that it wasn't the pickup but the large radius bridge as well the material of the changer fingers which I deemed as the culprit. He strummed over our strings, smiled, and said "well, you obviously got THAT solved".
He then went on to talk about his line of electric guitars, even put one on the floor and demonstrated their neck's sturdiness by standing on it. He was evidently not a kid anymore, sitting most of the meeting in a chair.
He was friendly, generous with his time, but most of the discussion ended being about his new electric guitars.
The TWO takeaways I got was that he explained to us that "impedance" in pickups was totally wrongly being mistaken as the resistance measured off the two wire ends of a pickup. He said it would tell you "NOTHING".
He went on to explain how to really measure it, but it was way too deep into electrophysics for me.
The other thing was that he tried to explain to us that old pickups, like the earliest ones from Rickenbacher and some of Gibson's were "low"-impedance pickups built for low impedance AMPLIFIERS. That it was Fender who "F'ed" everything up with their "high"-impedance pickups and amps and that the whole world followed a trend which he felt was detrimental to good tone. He even said that you could take Jerry Byrd's personal B7 and plug it into the most expensive boutique amp of todays (2000's) and NEVER get that tone, because ALL of today's amps are now "high"-impedance and that JB never sounded the same from the time on he started using newer amps (alluding to the Silver Face Fender Twin JB was known to use), since in early years he used a little VoluTONE amp creating the tone he was always remembered for.

I got several amps from the 30's and I must admit, my Pre-WWII steels sound much better, "fatter" thru these old crude amps than thru newer amps, and likewise, instruments from the 50's on up, just don't sound as good thru them (and BL seemed to suggest because of later "high"-impedance" pickups).
As I said, he tried to explain how to correctly measure impedance, and all it sounded to me was "complicated".

It was the first and last time I met BL. I am still thankful to him for the time he dedicated to us.

Back to the UltraTONE.
The UltraTONE only had ONE pickup: what is now called by some very few a PRE-P90. It's NOT a P90 as became known in guitars. And I suspect that it MAY fall into Bill Lawrence's category of what HE labeled a "low impedance" pickup. I have NEVER seen or read about a white/red of black UltraTONE with a Gibson "SoapBar" pickup. There are some which I am UNSURE if they are indeed an UltraTONE which have "dark butterscottish" finish with bindings and a slightly different shape with a pickup with screw poles.
I had "SoapBars" in my Gibson Console Grande. That guitar, while gorgeous in typical Gibson fashion, sounded inferior to a Japanese Guayatone Fender "immitations" which had pickups so microphonic I could lean into it and sing harmony to our singer thru them. I would NEVER want SoapBar pickups, even thou guitar players will go crazy over the vintage ones. Again my suspicion, but SoapBar pickups MAY already fall into the category of pickups BL labeled as "high"-impedance.
I have had 3 Gibson UltraTONES (white and red), my first one in the 80's in Switzerland, which the band jokingly called the "Blow Dryer" because it would blow any and everything off he stage, and two I still own which I have "collected" over the past Decade. ALL have the same pickup and ALL just "BLOW".

So, I still think that the way to reproduce THAT pickup, is to take one off, and have it taken apart to measure wire diameter and total length, while inspecting winding style and tension and then look at the magnetic poles, which I am unsure if they were already permanent magnets (Alnico).

Very few 7-string versions are around. I've seen pictures and they all showed the same pickup just with 7 poles.
But I have never played one of heard one knowingly.

Making a longer pickup (for 8, 10 and 12 string) has always been a desire of mine, but I a also suspect that size will alter the tonal characteristics.

Here is a picture of a PRE-P90 10-string UltraTONE: https://images.mecum.com/image/upload/c ... 7349_3.jpg?
I would LOVE to have that one in my hands!

As I said. I have two, and I am willing to risk one for such an inspection, with the hope that the donor pickup could at least be redone and sound as close to what it was. But it must be a professional KNOWLEDGEABLE person with a proven track record.

... J-D.

[Jack Hanson]

Here is a picture of a PRE-P90 10-string UltraTONE: https://images.mecum.com/image/upload/c ... 7349_3.jpg?
I would LOVE to have that one in my hands!

The instrument in the photo is actually a Gibson Century 10. The first edition Ultratones (1946 - 1951) were painted white, and the first edition Centuries (1947 - 1951) were painted black. The Ultratones had fancier tuner buttons, and hinged headstock and bridge/pickup covers. The Centuries had only a bridge/pickup cover, which attached via a threaded stud/thumbscrew arrangement. Both the Ultratone and the Century sported identical electronics. Both were available as 6-string models. Only the Ultratone was available as a 7-string, and only the Century was available as a 10-string.

All first edition Centuries and Ultratones were fitted with the postwar wide-oval/racetrack pickup. When the factory updated production in 1951 to the blonde Ultratones (with top binding) and the blue Centuries, both instruments were fitted with the new P-90 pickup.

The differences between the wide-oval/racetrack pickups and the P-90s are explained here, copied and pasted from a previous post on this thread:

"The first white-painted Ultratones (circa 1946) and black-painted Centuries (circa 1947) were fitted with the wide-oval/racetrack pickups with alnico magnet slugs for polepieces. The second generation, redesigned (circa 1951) ivory-topped Ultatones (mahogany body) and blue-painted Centuries (maple body) were fitted with a P-90 pickup, which had ferrous Fillister-head adjustable screws for polepieces which attached to a chunk of soft iron that contacted a pair of alnico bar magnets on each side, underneath the coil.

Both the wide-oval/racetrack pickup and the P-90 pickup fitted to 6-string instruments had their respective polepieces spaced approximately 58mm apart. A later run of the ivory-top/mahogany-bodied Ultratones (circa 1957 - 1959) were fitted with the new Gibson PAF humbucking pickup. These instruments had a narrower bridge to match the narrower polepiece spacing of the PAF."

I'm not by any means an expert. Virtually all of the info above is contained within the pages of the late A.R. Duchossoir's outstanding book on Gibson electric steel guitars mentioned in a previous post.

[Mark Frederick Jr]

Stopped by the hardware store today, figured it would be worth exploring the lamp hardware. Google hasn't given me a match for the brass cap nuts for the covers, but they look familiar. So I found some lamp harp caps with wide openings, and a pack of small brass thumb nuts that fit perfectly inside the caps. A little superglue to bond them and it looks pretty darn close.

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[Jack Hanson]

A little superglue to bond them and it looks pretty darn close.

Sure does! Good work, Mark!

[J D Sauser]

Here is a picture of a PRE-P90 10-string UltraTONE: https://images.mecum.com/image/upload/c ... 7349_3.jpg?
I would LOVE to have that one in my hands!

The instrument in the photo is actually a Gibson Century 10. The first edition Ultratones (1946 - 1951) were painted white, and the first edition Centuries (1947 - 1951) were painted black. The Ultratones had fancier tuner buttons, and hinged headstock and bridge/pickup covers. The Centuries had only a bridge/pickup cover, which attached via a threaded stud/thumbscrew arrangement. Both the Ultratone and the Century sported identical electronics. Both were available as 6-string models. Only the Ultratone was available as a 7-string, and only the Century was available as a 10-string.

All first edition Centuries and Ultratones were fitted with the postwar wide-oval/racetrack pickup. When the factory updated production in 1951 to the blonde Ultratones (with top binding) and the blue Centuries, both instruments were fitted with the new P-90 pickup.

The differences between the wide-oval/racetrack pickups and the P-90s are explained here, copied and pasted from a previous post on this thread:

"The first white-painted Ultratones (circa 1946) and black-painted Centuries (circa 1947) were fitted with the wide-oval/racetrack pickups with alnico magnet slugs for polepieces. The second generation, redesigned (circa 1951) ivory-topped Ultatones (mahogany body) and blue-painted Centuries (maple body) were fitted with a P-90 pickup, which had ferrous Fillister-head adjustable screws for polepieces which attached to a chunk of soft iron that contacted a pair of alnico bar magnets on each side, underneath the coil.

Both the wide-oval/racetrack pickup and the P-90 pickup fitted to 6-string instruments had their respective polepieces spaced approximately 58mm apart. A later run of the ivory-top/mahogany-bodied Ultratones (circa 1957 - 1959) were fitted with the new Gibson PAF humbucking pickup. These instruments had a narrower bridge to match the narrower polepiece spacing of the PAF."

I'm not by any means an expert. Virtually all of the info above is contained within the pages of the late A.R. Duchossoir's outstanding book on Gibson electric steel guitars mentioned in a previous post.

THANKS, Jack.

So, the so-called "PRE-P90" with alnico poles on the original white/red and SOME black Century are called "RACE-TRACK"-pickups? Are they known under that name outside the Steel Guitar community... in other words can the be found on standard electric guitars so that we could find someone to "clone" them and experiment with 8, 10 and even 12 stringers?

Thanks!... J-D.

[Jack Hanson]

So, the so-called "PRE-P90" with alnico poles on the original white/red and SOME black Century are called "RACE-TRACK"-pickups? Are they known under that name outside the Steel Guitar community... in other words can the be found on standard electric guitars so that we could find someone to "clone" them and experiment with 8, 10 and even 12 stringers?

Thanks!... J-D.

Andre Duchossoir refers to the early postwar pickup as the "non-adjustable Alnico pickup." I've seen it referred to as both the "racetrack" and the "wide-oval," both on this Forum and elsewhere. These pickups are much thinner than Gibson's various prewar pickups, and the postwar P-90s, Melody Maker/Skylark pickups, and humbuckers as well, but were constructed similarly to the prewar units with about 10,000 turns of 42 AWG wire with a DC resistance of about 8k Ohms, per Duchossoir. Duchossoir quotes Walter Fuller, former head of the Gibson Electronics Department: "...the magnets were the polepieces, so you didn't need to have the space of the magnets underneath." This style of pickup was exclusive to Gibson's early postwar steels, and was available in 6-, 7-, 8-, and 10-string variations. To the best of my knowledge, it was never used on any electric Spanish guitars.

[Mark Frederick Jr]

[/quote]

So, the so-called "PRE-P90" with alnico poles on the original white/red and SOME black Century are called "RACE-TRACK"-pickups? Are they known under that name outside the Steel Guitar community... in other words can the be found on standard electric guitars so that we could find someone to "clone" them and experiment with 8, 10 and even 12 stringers?

Thanks!... J-D.
[/quote]

I have been looking for more info on these as well, I was wondering about all aspects (size, general wind count, type of magnet, etc). They are pretty mysterious on google searches.

[Mark Frederick Jr]

So, the so-called "PRE-P90" with alnico poles on the original white/red and SOME black Century are called "RACE-TRACK"-pickups? Are they known under that name outside the Steel Guitar community... in other words can the be found on standard electric guitars so that we could find someone to "clone" them and experiment with 8, 10 and even 12 stringers?

Thanks!... J-D.

Andre Duchossoir refers to the early postwar pickup as the "non-adjustable Alnico pickup." I've seen it referred to as both the "racetrack" and the "wide-oval," both on this Forum and elsewhere. These pickups are much thinner than Gibson's various prewar pickups, and the postwar P-90s, Melody Maker/Skylark pickups, and humbuckers as well, but were constructed similarly to the prewar units with about 10,000 turns of 42 AWG wire with a DC resistance of about 8k Ohms, per Duchossoir. Duchossoir quotes Walter Fuller, former head of the Gibson Electronics Department: "...the magnets were the polepieces, so you didn't need to have the space of the magnets underneath." This style of pickup was exclusive to Gibson's early postwar steels, and was available in 6-, 7-, 8-, and 10-string variations. To the best of my knowledge, it was never used on any electric Spanish guitars.

Once again to the rescue! Excellent breakdown, thank you!

[Jack Hanson]

Once again to the rescue! Excellent breakdown, thank you!

For those interested in Gibson lap steels, the Duchsossoir book is a treasure trove of information. The photos alone are worth the price of admission. It's jam-packed with fascinating information throughout. Highly recommended.

[Mark Frederick Jr]

I did a cleanup of my messy little shop today, and went through my sanding machines. I have three kids aged 7-12, so that and my day job keep me really busy during the school year. I have neglected my shop since this fall. I am lucky to own three machines to help with sanding and shaping; a rigid ROSS spindle dander, a nice porter-cable belt/disc sander, and a ryobi 16-32 drum sander. I got very lucky with the last two items, they were absolute steals, just the right place at the right time.

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The drum sander in particular was an exciting find. I had made one myself, with an mdf drum. It worked really well for years, but every season I had to take it apart and true up the drum due to dimensional instability, mostly humidity related. I also had to push my materials through with a push stick. No complaints though, it was awesome and I would still be happily using it today if this hadn't fallen into my lap. I may convert to a hook and loop system though, I don't like the loading and retention mechanism. Tends to shred the belts where they attach.

Now that my shop is usable again (though still very cluttered), and my sanders are all freshly belted, I grab my #4, flatten the extra nub, and get to sanding. I don't work with poplar much, I use a lot of local walnut and maple. The sander devours the poplar, it goes very quickly.

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