Old ShoBud D10 steel guitar info

[Abe Levy]

Those are original pick ups.

[Steve Waltz]

Abe,

That is so cool that Shot has those pickups. I've never seen them before on any other guitar. Have You?

Jim, in case you didn't know, Shot Jackson is the original ShoBud owner. "Sho" is for shot and "Bud" is for Buddy Emmons. And if Shot Jackson has those same pickups on his guitar, I would go slow and careful on what to do if anything about changing those. I was wondering why the changer body had such a large opening for pickups and still had the third screw in the middle. I wish I could see the rest of the guitar in the photo. Not that we can see your original wood grain but to see if there is any similarity to it and yours.

[Jim Trantham]

Abe,

That is so cool that Shot has those pickups. I've never seen them before on any other guitar. Have You?

Jim, in case you didn't know, Shot Jackson is the original ShoBud owner. "Sho" is for shot and "Bud" is for Buddy Emmons. And if Shot Jackson has those same pickups on his guitar, I would go slow and careful on what to do if anything about changing those. I was wondering why the changer body had such a large opening for pickups and still had the third screw in the middle. I wish I could see the rest of the guitar in the photo. Not that we can see your original wood grain but to see if there is any similarity to it and yours.

Steve & Abe, Here’s a picture of the front of my guitar. The serial no etched in the body is 111164… Does that tell you anything?

[Abe Levy]

I have not seen them before. I was bidding on Jim’s guitar, but obviously did not go as high as he did. The front of the guitar looks great Jim! I don’t think it’s the same guitar as the one in the pic. I think this guitar is totally worth restoring, and I would definitely keep those pick ups on it, though I suspect that they will not have a very even tone - rewinding may help this. I do wonder if they have a humbucking quality to them even though they don’t cover all strings? I don’t know enough about pick ups to make an educated guess. I wish you luck with the guitar Jim, though I caution you that this will be a frustrating guitar to learn on. If I were you I’d try to get a modern guitar to play while you restore this one. Also, “restore” is a loose word in this case. If I were doing this guitar (which I hoped to do) I would go for a more “update”. I’d leave everything alone topside, but add a few modern Sho bud parts underneath to make it more playable with a few more useful changes. Anyway ‘nuff said. Enjoy!

[Abe Levy]

That serial number doesn’t look original, but I would guess it is intended to mean November 14 1964 (looks like 111464 to me) - though I believe that would make it a Nashville guitar not a Madison. In which case the sticker is a replacement. But there seems to be scarce solid info on when exactly the last original Madison guitars were made. Tough to say for sure. Maybe some Sho bud experts will chime in. Ricky Davis? The front does look original - I would guess that black is the original Color - of at least some of the guitar. That inlay looks original.

[David Ball]

With those blue pickup bobbins, I would suspect that the necks and maybe top were originally painted blue as well. Shot seemed to match up colors of the bobbins with the color of the guitar in those days.

That's a pretty big changer axle, but the blocks holding the axle aren't adjustable. The earlier permanents had small changer axles. The bigger axles came later, as did the adjustable blocks. Also the spacers in place of unused changer finger positions and the rollerless nut--both very early. I'd guess that the guitar was built before 1964, but with Sho Bud, who knows.

Dave

[Dave Mudgett]

I am no expert on these early Sho Buds. So I'm no help determining what parts are original or not. But looking at the new front photo and the close-up of the top, I would very much hesitate to assume that guitar has been refinished. I have handled a lot of vintage guitars over the years, and that may well be an original Fender-style Lake Placid Blue Metallic, which with a nitrocellulose lacquer finish tends to green out with age. That is what I'd expect an original early-60s LPB Strat finish to look like. And overall, cosmetically, that guitar looks very nice to me - again, for a vintage guitar. I would never refinish a vintage guitar like this. Call me crazy, but I like the look of a vintage guitar.

Have you re-strung the guitar, as per the detailed photo of the top? If so, definitely tune them up and see what happens. See if you can tune the changes. I have a 60s Fingertip, and I figured I'd have to completely disassemble it and start from scratch. Nope - it mostly works - all 9 pedals and 2 of the 3 levers can be set. One of the levers has a mechanical issue - it appears to be all there and hooked up but doesn't actuate the changes. The pedal action is stiff and short, the two working levers' actions are loose and long, but they tune up.

Guitars I've had with dirty, out-of-order mechanics needed to ultimately be taken apart, cleaned up, have any problems addressed, and re-assembled, lubed, and set up to really operate at a good level. As far as restoring the mechanics go - yes, you have your work cut out for you. But if the parts are all there, you might be surprised what pulling that apart, cleaning everything, sorting everything out, and re-assembling might do. I would definitely take detailed, close-up pictures of everything, maybe make a movie of you hitting all the pedals etc., and watching what happens, before doing anything. And then, maybe pull just one pedal off, clean up, re-assemble, and set up the changes, just for practice.

Good luck. I don't think this one is ready for the dumpster, by far.

[Scott Swartz]

Those pickups should work exactly like P bass pickups (just more poles) and be hum cancelling.

I would suspect the two halves are series connected (once again like a p bass) however they could theoretically be parallel connected and work audio and hum cancelling wise.
Parallel would be super bright since split coil designs tend to be bright in general even series connected.

Jim pm me if you would like to discuss further.

[Jim Trantham]

I am no expert on these early Sho Buds. So I'm no help determining what parts are original or not. But looking at the new front photo and the close-up of the top, I would very much hesitate to assume that guitar has been refinished. I have handled a lot of vintage guitars over the years, and that may well be an original Fender-style Lake Placid Blue Metallic, which with a nitrocellulose lacquer finish tends to green out with age. That is what I'd expect an original early-60s LPB Strat finish to look like. And overall, cosmetically, that guitar looks very nice to me - again, for a vintage guitar. I would never refinish a vintage guitar like this. Call me crazy, but I like the look of a vintage guitar.

Have you re-strung the guitar, as per the detailed photo of the top? If so, definitely tune them up and see what happens. See if you can tune the changes. I have a 60s Fingertip, and I figured I'd have to completely disassemble it and start from scratch. Nope - it mostly works - all 9 pedals and 2 of the 3 levers can be set. One of the levers has a mechanical issue - it appears to be all there and hooked up but doesn't actuate the changes. The pedal action is stiff and short, the two working levers' actions are loose and long, but they tune up.

Guitars I've had with dirty, out-of-order mechanics needed to ultimately be taken apart, cleaned up, have any problems addressed, and re-assembled, lubed, and set up to really operate at a good level. As far as restoring the mechanics go - yes, you have your work cut out for you. But if the parts are all there, you might be surprised what pulling that apart, cleaning everything, sorting everything out, and re-assembling might do. I would definitely take detailed, close-up pictures of everything, maybe make a movie of you hitting all the pedals etc., and watching what happens, before doing anything. And then, maybe pull just one pedal off, clean up, re-assemble, and set up the changes, just for practice.

Good luck. I don't think this one is ready for the dumpster, by far.

Thank you Dave for you advice. I’m really excited to get her up and playing.
I do believe your right on the money about the color. Additionally, I do believe it has a nitro finish

[Steve Waltz]

Tech tip here: As Dave mentions cleaning. The easiest way to clean the fingers is to remove the strings, unscrew the philips head screws holding down the parts holding the fingers and rod to the top of the changer, at that point you should be able to push out the rod that the fingers ride on. Clean it, oil and replace. If you don't do this you will have to remove all of the fingers, rods with their screws which are most likely in a good position at the moment. It's just a lot more work and the other way isn't. With the rod out you might also be able to clean between the fingers which is where they might stick to each other and cause problems.

I agree the changer finger shaft size seems bigger than what would be expected on an early sho bud. My pull release guitars with larger shafts seem to do better for knee lever changes as the movement of the finger seems to create a larger change in pitch per the same movement of the finger compared to a smaller shaft such as the one on my permanent. So it's a good thing.

If pedal feel is too stiff, look for other holes in the foot pedal rod attachment. There might be two and they actually make a huge difference. Also look at where the rod going to the finger is attached on the finger. You might have two holes per finger already drilled and less likely you have three. Lower to the body is quicker pull but stiffer. Also where that same rod attached to the bell crank might have different holes. Same thing. Closer to the body is quicker and stiffer, higher will have a longer travel and will be easier.

Since you are new, you aren't going to have an opinion about stiff pedals and you might want to wait with the bother of those smaller adjustments until you have your thoughts on what feels good. But I thought I'd tell you how you could adjust.

Steve

[Jim Trantham]

Tech tip here: As Dave mentions cleaning. The easiest way to clean the fingers is to remove the strings, unscrew the philips head screws holding down the parts holding the fingers and rod to the top of the changer, at that point you should be able to push out the rod that the fingers ride on. Clean it, oil and replace. If you don't do this you will have to remove all of the fingers, rods with their screws which are most likely in a good position at the moment. It's just a lot more work and the other way isn't. With the rod out you might also be able to clean between the fingers which is where they might stick to each other and cause problems.

I agree the changer finger shaft size seems bigger than what would be expected on an early sho bud. My pull release guitars with larger shafts seem to do better for knee lever changes as the movement of the finger seems to create a larger change in pitch per the same movement of the finger compared to a smaller shaft such as the one on my permanent. So it's a good thing.

If pedal feel is too stiff, look for other holes in the foot pedal rod attachment. There might be two and they actually make a huge difference. Also look at where the rod going to the finger is attached on the finger. You might have two holes per finger already drilled and less likely you have three. Lower to the body is quicker pull but stiffer. Also where that same rod attached to the bell crank might have different holes. Same thing. Closer to the body is quicker and stiffer, higher will have a longer travel and will be easier.

Since you are new, you aren't going to have an opinion about stiff pedals and you might want to wait with the bother of those smaller adjustments until you have your thoughts on what feels good. But I thought I'd tell you how you could adjust.

Steve

Great thank you. I’m in the process of cleaning everything up. It smells like someone sprayed WD-40 in everything. I can’t imagine that is an appropriate lubricant for this type of instrument. I plan to use a light machine oil on the changer finger shaft.
Additionally, I’m trying to straighten out the pull rods. They are bent, crossing over each other and rubbing fiercely. That has got to cause a lot of additional drag on everything. I’m learning alot all of a sudden. I’m studying your advice avidly!!
Thank you again.

[Jim Trantham]

With those blue pickup bobbins, I would suspect that the necks and maybe top were originally painted blue as well. Shot seemed to match up colors of the bobbins with the color of the guitar in those days.

That's a pretty big changer axle, but the blocks holding the axle aren't adjustable. The earlier permanents had small changer axles. The bigger axles came later, as did the adjustable blocks. Also the spacers in place of unused changer finger positions and the rollerless nut--both very early. I'd guess that the guitar was built before 1964, but with Sho Bud, who knows.

Dave

The changer shaft is damn near 1/2”. I pulled it on the E9 side and polished it up. Seems straight doesn’t exhibit any excessive wear.
Thank you for helping!!!!

[Johnie King]

What Erv Niehaus said.

I was coming from the same angle when I put up my post. A student can learn nothing on a guitar like that! One more potential PSG player scared off in another direction musically!

The rollerless nuts alone would have him retuning after every tune, sometimes during the tune!

To a collector, some parts from this guitar might be invalueable, the cabinet would be a crap shoot.

It is a parts guitar anyway you cut it. You can't polish a t3rd!

I'm sure I am being percieved as a real "D" bag due to some of my comments, but nothing I've said about this guitar can be easily disputed.

Wishing Jim the best with his PSG endeavors.......

[Johnie King]

Kelsey your post gets my vote.
Jim I would be proud of your Bud purchase!! Perfectly fine project for you too restore you will learn a lot about the mechanical part of a steel, too learn how too repair an keep your steel in top notch condition! That's worth much more than the price you paid.
Wish you were closer I would love too help you bring that bud back too like new condition.
These old Buds an Emmons push pulls set the mark for good tone.

Does anyone have a copedent for the ShoBud Permanent E9 with 3 pedals and 2 knee levers that will render a i iv v chord setup….
Also, how bout a copedent for the C6 with 5 pedals and 1 knee lever for the ShoBud Permanent that will render a i iv v chord setup…
Desperately trying to learn my new (old) 64 ShoBud Permanent!!!!! I’ll never give up!!! Thanks. Jim “The Newby”

Jim,
I'm sorry you've had to endure the overwhelming support of our forum experts, it can be at least entertaining if not helpful.

The truth is you have an instrument that with maybe a pickup swap would put almost any modern guitar to shame in the tone department. As you have already ascertained, you don't even need pedals to play C6 and the ABC pedals for E9 could be put in order very quickly. You would probably do well to totally exhaust the capabilities of AB pedals before you concerned yourself too much further, you will then be able to better use whatever additions you may have.

Also, the solid nut is not a big deal for strings that are not raised and lowered(which that guitar can't reliably do anyway), maybe just some lube like you'd use on a guitar nut.

Consider just ABC pedals for E9 and lowering string 8 a half tone on a knee lever. It would be possible to raise string 4 a half tone on a lever but it would have to be tuned under the guitar.

Standard C6 tuning for pedals 4-7 should be possible with little fanfare, but pedal 8 would be limited to only raising the 7th string a half tone.

And for the record, from what I can see from the pics the pedals could be made to work with zero parts needed other than some nuts or springs; a lot of playing could be had for a day's worth of work.

[Johnie King]

Johnny Cox :: Sure makes his Sho Bud restored Sho Bud steel sound sweet.

[Bobby D. Jones]

Congratulations, You may have a rare piece of Sho-Bud history in this guitar. I wonder if the guitar was a experimental guitar to prove or disprove new designs and changes.

From the pictures posted after cleaning the guitar up.
There is pick and finger damage to the front edges of the fret boards. Where a player's right hand has been picking. This is evidence that this guitar was set up and played by someone. Or the fret boards was removed from another guitar and placed on this guitar.

I suggest you go slow and check out the set up and rodding of A-B-C pedals, They may already set up properly. Just need cleaning and some lubrication.

In many common E9th tunings, 1-2-3 pedals are the same.
A pedal Pulls strings 5-10 from B to C#.
B pedal pulls strings 3-6 from G# to A
C pedal pulls string 4 from E to F# and String 5 from B to C#.

Example of use.
G Chord . Bar 3rd fret strings 3-4-5-6-8-10 G. Shove A&B pedals C. Holding A&B slide to 5th fret D. Bar at 8th fret C. Bar at 10th fret D. At fret 10, A&B down G. At 3rd fret A pedal Em, 10th fret B-C pedal Em.

About 1970 I built a guitar using a Sho-Bud pull and Release changer guitar as a pattern. Played and learned a lot, Learned bar slants, Then got a guitar with knee levers which made playing a Steel easier.

Good Luck on this project, Happy Steelin

[Jim Trantham]

Congratulations, You may have a rare piece of Sho-Bud history in this guitar. I wonder if the guitar was a experimental guitar to prove or disprove new designs and changes.

From the pictures posted after cleaning the guitar up.
There is pick and finger damage to the front edges of the fret boards. Where a player's right hand has been picking. This is evidence that this guitar was set up and played by someone. Or the fret boards was removed from another guitar and placed on this guitar.

I suggest you go slow and check out the set up and rodding of A-B-C pedals, They may already set up properly. Just need cleaning and some lubrication.

In many common E9th tunings, 1-2-3 pedals are the same.
A pedal Pulls strings 5-10 from B to C#.
B pedal pulls strings 3-6 from G# to A
C pedal pulls string 4 from E to F# and String 5 from B to C#.


Example of use.
G Chord . Bar 3rd fret strings 3-4-5-6-8-10 G. Shove A&B pedals C. Holding A&B slide to 5th fret D. Bar at 8th fret C. Bar at 10th fret D. At fret 10, A&B down G. At 3rd fret A pedal Em, 10th fret B-C pedal Em.

About 1970 I built a guitar using a Sho-Bud pull and Release changer guitar as a pattern. Played and learned a lot, Learned bar slants, Then got a guitar with knee levers which made playing a Steel easier.

Good Luck on this project, Happy Steelin

Thank you Bobby… I’m really excited to get to playing…. Your advice is very valuable to me as a complete beginner….

[Jim Trantham]

Congratulations, You may have a rare piece of Sho-Bud history in this guitar. I wonder if the guitar was a experimental guitar to prove or disprove new designs and changes.

From the pictures posted after cleaning the guitar up.
There is pick and finger damage to the front edges of the fret boards. Where a player's right hand has been picking. This is evidence that this guitar was set up and played by someone. Or the fret boards was removed from another guitar and placed on this guitar.

I suggest you go slow and check out the set up and rodding of A-B-C pedals, They may already set up properly. Just need cleaning and some lubrication.

In many common E9th tunings, 1-2-3 pedals are the same.
A pedal Pulls strings 5-10 from B to C#.
B pedal pulls strings 3-6 from G# to A
C pedal pulls string 4 from E to F# and String 5 from B to C#.


Example of use.
G Chord . Bar 3rd fret strings 3-4-5-6-8-10 G. Shove A&B pedals C. Holding A&B slide to 5th fret D. Bar at 8th fret C. Bar at 10th fret D. At fret 10, A&B down G. At 3rd fret A pedal Em, 10th fret B-C pedal Em.

About 1970 I built a guitar using a Sho-Bud pull and Release changer guitar as a pattern. Played and learned a lot, Learned bar slants, Then got a guitar with knee levers which made playing a Steel easier.

Good Luck on this project, Happy Steelin

Thank you Bobby… I’m really excited to get to playing…. Your advice is very valuable to me as a complete beginner….

Bobby, I’ve really looked this guitar over very closely using your and others guidance..the conclusion I’ve come to is that the E9 is not setup as you suggest. So, I think I’ve got that setup now. However, the existing pull rods don’t seem to be long enough to accomplish the tuning you suggest. Now, I don’t have a problem re-Redding the E9 pulls. I’m really having a very difficult time trying to get the raises to pitch. The pitch seems to be high. Example, trying to raise the B’s to C# the rods don’t seem to long enough to accomplish the required tuning.
What would you suggest? I can make new pull rods if that’s the answer. Please advise. Thank all of you for your continued help getting my guitar up and playing!!! Jim

[Jim Trantham]

Here are a couple photos of a similar guitar that I restored, it is very possible but a lot of time and work. It all depends on how far you want to go.

Your guitar is absolutely beautiful!!!!!!
I have a small machine shop, I am retired and have the time and expertise to rebuild my guitar.
I’m contemplating doing the same kind of rebuild you have done. Can you send me your copedent for the C6 and E9 side of your guitar????
I’m really not concerned about future value as I am about it’s playability… I have two knees and 8 pedals. I can add more knees if you think it is necessary for playability..Thank you. Jim

[Bobby D. Jones]

HI Jim. I went back to your first post pictures. From the picture of the bottom of the guitar. On this pull and release changer, The 4&5 string changer fingers are very close to the stop bar.
To tune a pull and release setup, You push the P pedal down till the changer levers hit the guitar body stop, Tune the 4th string to F#. Tune the 5th string to C#. Then release the pedal and tune 4th string to E with the screw on the back of the changer. Then the 5th string to B with the screw on the back of the changer.

From what you wrote in you last post. Are the rods to short to to allow the changer finger to follow the adjustment screw to come down to 4th string to E and 5th string to B?

If you would like send me a private message. A phone number and time I could call to discuss the problem.
I live in Eastern Standard time, Mountain time would be 2 hours behind me.

[Steve Waltz]

Jim,

If you think your rods aren’t long enough try this: those nuts on the treaded rods behind the finger might be screwed in too far. Do as Bobby suggested and step on the pedal and tune the raised note and make sure the finger bangs into the wood body as a pedal stop then let off the pedal. If the note now is too high, make sure the screw on the back of the changer is backed out as far as it needs to go to lower the note. If it is screwed in the note will be sharp. If the nuts behind the rod are keeping the finger from going back, then continue to unscrew those.

If you are a machinist, I’ll send some close up photos of easy changes that you can make.

Here are collars behind the fingers instead of threaded rod ends with nuts.

[Steve Waltz]

Jim,

Since you mentioned machining parts I'll post some photos of types of parts. I would really suggest making a whole plan now so that you don't have to move things later as I did. Choose a set up. I put F raises on left knee left, E lowers left knee right, 2nd string and 9th string lowers on right knee right.

Choose bell crank style: My guitar and Bob Mullers have what I call sho bud fingertip style. They work fine but sometimes can be in the way and you have to run rods for one change through the bell crank of another change. That can bind or it rubs and a slightly mcrophonic pick up will hear it. The rod for a single pull also sometimes can slightly bind in the bellcrank depending on how far the arch of the bell crank travels. Because of this I think the sho bud Pro 2 bell cranks and the MARlen versions are better. They hold the rod in a rotating brass piece attached to the finger. The emmons push pull cranks are similar. You can purchase the sho bud ones but I think they are $25 each and you are going to need potentially 12! So if you can make a version that might help.

I'm not a machinist so what I am showing is not what it could be but even as it is it works. Yours could be better.

Fingertip style




Sho bud pro 2 style. These won't bind and they stay out of the way of other rods.





MArlen style



You could start by changing your A B and C pedals so that the rods travel in a straight line. You create a rod across the E9 neck, mount bell cranks in line with the changer finger being used and lock down behind the bellcrank by eitehr a collar or threaded rod with a nut. This threaded issue will come up later because it is a method of tuning one of two changes.

This could get long winded so I'll stop unless this is the direction you are going. The best thing I can do for you is to show what I built that I made a mistake on or what I would have changed.

[Johnie King]

Here are a couple photos of a similar guitar that I restored, it is very possible but a lot of time and work. It all depends on how far you want to go.

Your guitar is absolutely beautiful!!!!!!
I have a small machine shop, I am retired and have the time and expertise to rebuild my guitar.
I’m contemplating doing the same kind of rebuild you have done. Can you send me your copedent for the C6 and E9 side of your guitar????
I’m really not concerned about future value as I am about it’s playability… I have two knees and 8 pedals. I can add more knees if you think it is necessary for playability..Thank you. Jim

[Jim Trantham]

HI Jim. I went back to your first post pictures. From the picture of the bottom of the guitar. On this pull and release changer, The 4&5 string changer fingers are very close to the stop bar.
To tune a pull and release setup, You push the P pedal down till the changer levers hit the guitar body stop, Tune the 4th string to F#. Tune the 5th string to C#. Then release the pedal and tune 4th string to E with the screw on the back of the changer. Then the 5th string to B with the screw on the back of the changer.

From what you wrote in you last post. Are the rods to short to to allow the changer finger to follow the adjustment screw to come down to 4th string to E and 5th string to B?

If you would like send me a private message. A phone number and time I could call to discuss the problem.
I live in Eastern Standard time, Mountain time would be 2 hours behind me.

Thank you Bobby, I will… I’m deep into fixing my guitar, when I get there I’ll call….

[Jim Trantham]

Jim,

Since you mentioned machining parts I'll post some photos of types of parts. I would really suggest making a whole plan now so that you don't have to move things later as I did. Choose a set up. I put F raises on left knee left, E lowers left knee right, 2nd string and 9th string lowers on right knee right.

Choose bell crank style: My guitar and Bob Mullers have what I call sho bud fingertip style. They work fine but sometimes can be in the way and you have to run rods for one change through the bell crank of another change. That can bind or it rubs and a slightly mcrophonic pick up will hear it. The rod for a single pull also sometimes can slightly bind in the bellcrank depending on how far the arch of the bell crank travels. Because of this I think the sho bud Pro 2 bell cranks and the MARlen versions are better. They hold the rod in a rotating brass piece attached to the finger. The emmons push pull cranks are similar. You can purchase the sho bud ones but I think they are $25 each and you are going to need potentially 12! So if you can make a version that might help.

I'm not a machinist so what I am showing is not what it could be but even as it is it works. Yours could be better.



Fingertip style




Sho bud pro 2 style. These won't bind and they stay out of the way of other rods.





MArlen style



You could start by changing your A B and C pedals so that the rods travel in a straight line. You create a rod across the E9 neck, mount bell cranks in line with the changer finger being used and lock down behind the bellcrank by eitehr a collar or threaded rod with a nut. This threaded issue will come up later because it is a method of tuning one of two changes.

This could get long winded so I'll stop unless this is the direction you are going. The best thing I can do for you is to show what I built that I made a mistake on or what I would have changed.

Wow!! I really like your work. I’m deep into repairs now. I’ll send you pics when I get it redone. Then tuning will be my next learning experience… Thank you Steve for your patience, time and expertise helping me!!