Do All Emmon's Push Pull have "that sound?"

Brett Cookingham · From: Sherman Oaks CA

I think all you guys ought to get rid of those junky old p/p's ASAP. I'll be glad to give ya' $50 each!

[This message was edited by Brett Cookingham on 11 June 2003 at 10:06 PM.]

George Kimery · From: Limestone, TN, USA

Whoa! I never dreamed that starting this thread would generate so many responses! Thanks to everybody that has contributed. I think we have all learned something. However, there is still questions that have not been responded to. Perhaps the answer is simply, "Who knows, it varies from guitar to guitar".
The questions are: Is there a difference in sound between a cut tail, bolt on, wrap around, single neck, single neck on a double frame, double neck, or 12 string vs. 10 string? I assume thatt just because one particular guitar sounds great doesn't mean that all of them of that design will. But, Bobbe can make any of them have "that sound", because he knows the secret, right?

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Big news ! I have just traded the Brooklyn bridge for the Seymore "secret". There is a hidden pannel with a gizmo right behind the thinga-ma-jig that you turn left while clicking your heels together and humming old man river. Wow ! It really works.
I tried it on my mostly push 1978 Buick Skylark and now it has THAT SOUND.

Bob

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

[This message was edited by C Dixon on 11 June 2003 at 07:24 AM.]

Jay Ganz · From: Out Behind The Barn

George,
If you're looking for a real "meat and
potatoes" P/P tone, then the bolt on is the
way to go. Nice full low-mids & mids.
But, if you'd rather skip
the main course & head right over to
the "dessert" tray, then the sweeter
tone goes to the wraparound. A ton
of sustain with a smoother tone that
really rings out.
The cut tail falls somewhere inbetween,
with a bit more pronounced highs than
the others, not quite as full in the
mids. This is figuring the exact same
pickup in each one. Each is just a
variation of the old classic Emmons tone.

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

Jay, all the guitars you mention have "That tone" As a matter of fact, most (including myself) perfer the later guitars tone and playability. Collector like the "Bolt on" only because there were so few of them. To be perfectly clear, the fact that it may be a bolt on or not has very little at all to do with the Emmons tone. Fingers, changers,body thickness, the endcasting method of attachment have the majority to do with string feedback that creats "That Tone". As I said before, I can adjust the timbre on a P-P guitar, but not on all pull guitars.
Most players that are after the last increment of great tone prefer the '68- up guitars. Weldon Myrick, Sonny Garrish,Steve Hinson,Russ Paul,Mike Sweeney,and about all the Nashville players play the "split neck" guitars.
Not to take anything away from the originals,there hasen't been a bad P-P ever made, (a few ugly blue and green ones though).

[This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 11 June 2003 at 08:00 AM.]

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

The original question here was "Do all Emmons P-P guitars have "that sound". The general answer is "YES".

Jerry Roller · From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA

I am very curious as to the difference in tone of a wrap-around and a split. It appears to me that the design is basically the same since both have the changer pillar blocks mounting thru the neck and onto the body. It seems to me the only difference is the back of the neck is open on the split but the mounting of the changer is the same.
I have not had a wrap-around apart so I can't be sure if this is correct or not. It also appears to me that most other builders use the same design of mounting the changer and the wrap-around neck design. The bolt-on seems to me to be the most radical departure from what is currently being done.
Jerry

Gino Iorfida · From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA

Never seen a wraparound close enough, but I can bet that the block at the tail of the split tail design DOES contribute to the tonal differences between the split-tail and the wraparound. Witht he 2 caphead screws holding this block to the body, (and which anchor on the underside of the endplate) and the screws holding the end of the changer to this, I would say it significantly makes a difference in the tone. I would guess this to be the reason the split tails tend to have more defined highs than the wraparound. I would also go out on a limb to venture an educated guess that the split tail design was NOT to cut manufacturing costs/labor costs, but was a tone enhancement design. Common sense says that because now you need ANOTHER piece of machined aluminum, plus 6 more screws that parts AND labor will go up. I could be wrong, but it would make sense.
I can see how the bolt on design would save time in assembly, and there must be some reason why Emmons still used the bolt on design with the wood neck guitars as well (I can see how it would cause tuning problems with an all aluminum neck design... a piece of AL that long with the changer bolted to it woudl easily cause tuning issues, but the wood neck only having that @6" or so piece of aluminum would eliminate that as well...
In the amp business there is a motto "an amplifier is the sum of it's parts" -- in other words, "that tone" is a function of just about eveyr single thing on the guitar that matters (body type/size/shape/material, endplate size, shape thickness/casting/material and so on...) just the little things like bolt-on vs. split tail, vs wraparound, or wood neck vs. aluminum neck, mica vs lacquered... they all can have 'that tone' due to the important things, just the other things make them all a little different.
I will say that I have seen an ugly emmons or two, but hey, bodies can be refinished/remica'd.... some of the best sounding 6 string guitars are also the ugliest (stevie ray vaughn's strat, roy buchannons tele etc)... we listen to music with our ears, and not with our eyes. Although, that robin's egg blue push pull that Bobbe had a month or so back... don't think I coudl play something like that w/o getting a LOT of flack from the guys at the bar *laugh*

[This message was edited by Gino Iorfida on 11 June 2003 at 10:26 AM.]

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

Regardless of how they are made at the bridge, they all have "That timbre". The amount of treble , bass, lower boom, highs etc. isn't what Emmons P-Ps are famous for,it's the Timber, quality of overtones,color of the notes, you know, the things that can't be fixed with the controls on the amp. All Emmons guitars have "that sound". The bridge, wood, mica,color,whatever, isn't what's important, that's not where the tone is coming from,

[This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 11 June 2003 at 06:35 PM.]

Pat Burns · From: Branchville, N.J. USA

...give ya a dollar if ya tell me...

Johnny Cox · Posted 11 Jun 2003 12:48 pm

Gino, please allow me to comment here. Your assumption of who is playing on most sessions is pretty correct in the sense that you are most likely referring to current records that you hear on radio. Those sessions are done in most part by Paul Franklin (Franklin Guitar), Mike Johnson (Franklin Guitar),Dan Dugmore(Sho-Bud). Sonny Garrish (Emmons) still does many sessions, but you don't hear him on radio as much as the other guys. Several of the other players mentioned do demo and custom sessions here. A great portion of the other gentlemen mentioned in Bobbe's post do very few if any sessions here. The folks that do lots of sessions that were not mentioned like John Hughey, Doug Jernigan, Tommy White, Hal Rugg, and I could go on, are not playing Emmons guitars. There must be a reason and there is. It is called keeping up with the times. One of my heros told me many years ago that you can live in the past or live in today and look toward the future. There are many steel guitar players that will never play anything but an Emmons PP, that is each individuals choice. I do a few sessions myself and I don't play an Emmons.
Now I will address Mr. Seymore. Bobbe, you don't need to call anyone an idiot to make your point. Not everyone may have the same level of intelligence as you, but that does not make them an idiot no more than Mr. Lashly showing you how to fix the PP made you an idiot. If you know the secret to getting that magic sound and you are the supporter, promoter and friend of steel guitar and steel players that you claim to be why would you not want to share this information with the hundreds of PP owners that would love to update their guitars? By the way Bobbe, you mentioned that your knowledge of whats going on stems from you being in the middle of the action. You also said that most people are focused on Alan Jackson, The Judds etc. I hate to tell you this but The Judds broke up about 10 years ago, and Neil McCoy is not the new kid on the block anymore.

Respectfully, Johnny Cox

[This message was edited by Johnny Cox on 11 June 2003 at 02:03 PM.]

[This message was edited by Johnny Cox on 11 June 2003 at 02:11 PM.]

Marco Schouten · From: Amsterdam, The Netherlands

Maybe I missed something, but I don't see Bobbe calling anyone an idiot. I think he has a right to protect his bussiness, I also don't tell others my special tricks in my profession.

------------------
Steelin' Greetings
Marco Schouten
Sho-Bud Pro III Custom; Sho-Bud LLG; John Pearse bar; Emmons bar; Panther amp

Frank Parish · From: Nashville,Tn. USA

I tend to think that no matter what guitar any of the session players or road players choose would make a difference in them working or not. If they play well then they play well on any guitar that's functional. I have to concede that by and large the all-pull guitars will outplay the Emmons p/p but not by much and certainly not enough for me to change over. I tried that remember? If you want to play in your sock feet then get an all pull although I doubt you can play many gigs or will be allowed to in your sock feet. I kind of think if the session guys all swapped guitars out tomorrow, nobody would lose their gig.
As for the post that commented on why everybody doesn't play an Emmons, I'd say there's a couple of reasons. First one is they've made the sacrifice of playability over tone. If they didn't have a well adjusted p/p it probably played terrible so they dumped it. Second they just preferred the all pull for tone and don't appreciate the tone of the Emmons guitars. That doesn't mean they're tone deaf but just prefer something else. Nothing wrong with that. I believe that a lot more players would play the Emmons p/p guitars if they weren't so hard to make changes to. Once they're in adjustment they stay in tune forever but changing the set-up is another story. They sound great but you better like the set-up for a long time.

[This message was edited by Frank Parish on 11 June 2003 at 03:41 PM.]

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

Frank Parrish, as always, well put, your whole post is well put. Now I'd like to say that within ten years, the Emmons P-P guitars will be to valuable for most players to own ,or at least play out in a bar or on the road. This well keep the number of players from owning one, not the fact they don't want one, or want to play one everywhere. All I can say is, if you think you might want one, get one now, it's going to get expensive out there.
Sorry Johnny Cox but it is very obvious that you have choosen to air your personal problems with me on this forum because of your trying to be brand loyal to some other brand of steel guitar your are paid to endorse and hype. If you see need to continue this "Idiotic" approach to picking apart every fact that I have eluded to, how about doing it by coming over or using your e-mail?
All these guys I mentioned that work in Nashville and make a fine living and play Push Pull Emmons guitars,Should take deep offence at your "Idiotic" post. I guess Sonny Garrish isn't doing any sessions now? BOY! The Judds have had more "Reunion tours" than Porter has hair perms. Is Allen Jacksons career over? I don't think so. The P-P guitar hasn't been made for over 17 years, I am not pushing them or hyping them for any personal reason other that the fact that, love them or not, they have "That sound". Find me another guitar that sounds that good and I'll change brands in a second. New or old. I'm not paid for "Pushing Push -Pulls". I just appreciate great tone, like I heard you get on Sho-Bud several years ago Johnny. If I wanted to be a hipocrate, I'd push the new guitars I have on the floor of my store and be like all the other players in Nashville that "Push guitar brands for money". I can't and wont do it. I don't have to and I don't want to.

Sorry bOb, If he was a member of my forum I'd be glad to take it over there.

[This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 11 June 2003 at 05:28 PM.]

[This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 11 June 2003 at 06:34 PM.]

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

AND, another thing that I feel you should do Johnny is apoligise to not only the steel players you belittled because you don't think they do enough sessions to be first class citizens, but also to all players everywhere, because they may play just as well or better than your studio idol does, and they are definatly just as fine human beings as studio players in Nashville may be. And most of them probably make more money in the process with their day jobs. No steel player is over paid but still shouldn't be judged as a "person" by how much money he makes.
I meet the finest people everyday in the steel business in my store, most don't play professionally, but are the most wonderful folks in the world. Most are very happy, well adjusted folks, that play and enjoy steel guitar for the greatest reason of all. These are MY idols,regular people that love steel guitar.

Rick Collins · From: Claremont , CA USA

Boy! At this point, I'm about ready to start looking for an "all-push" guitar.

...anybody know where I can get one with a black and white checkered cabinet?

Rick

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

No, but I do have a car like that! Actually Rick, if you just lower strings, the Emmons is a all push guitar! As a matter of fact, the ONLY all push guitar!

[This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 11 June 2003 at 06:15 PM.]

Mike Sweeney · From: Nashville,TN,USA

Man!!!

This is better than Jerry Springer.

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

Hey Mike, it may not have even started yet!

Boy, I wish this was on my forum, bOb gets ALL the good stuff!

[This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 11 June 2003 at 07:55 PM.]

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

Yes Marco, I called no one an idiot. Just gave anyone a chance if they wanted to be one. Only one responded! I put no one down and never will because I have great respect for all steel players , at any level, as I really feel there is only one level. There is no "class distinction" in steel guitar. you are either a steel player or you aren't. We are all in it together, because we love it.

[This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 11 June 2003 at 07:42 PM.]

Johnny Cox · Posted 11 Jun 2003 6:56 pm

I would like to post my last comments on this thread. First, most of the steel guitar players that were mentioned in Bobbe's post are friends of mine and true professionals. That being said, they know who are and who are not doing session work. My intent was to never diminish the ability or careers of any of these players. I truly feel that none of these gentlemen would take offense to my statement. If anyone has, please accept my humble apology.

Bobbe, in a previous post which has now been edited by you, you made the comment that you had to straighten out some new guys and old idiots. I took great offense to the fact that a person in your position would make the slightest reference to any steel guitar player, be they professional or amateur, that one might be an "idiot". My comment was "not everyone may have the same level of intelligence as you, but that does not make them an idiot no more than Mr. Lashley showing you how to fix the PP made you an idiot". My comment should have read "not everyone may have the same level of intelligence as you, but that does not make them an idiot no more than Mr. Lashley showing you how to fix the PP WOULD HAVE MADE you an idiot". Bobbe, I apologize if you feel that I called you an idiot. I certainly had no intention of doing that.

My comments to this whole matter come from Johnny Cox, the steel guitar player, and have nothing to do with my business association with the MSA company.

If anyone has taken any offense to any comment that I have made, please accept my apology. As a member of the steel guitar community, I have opinions and feelings as all of you do. I will try to refrain from sharing my personal feelings, but will continue to share my professional opinions and knowledge on this forum.
Sincerely,
Johnny Cox

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

Good, we have most of this cleared up, Now, I called no one an idiot, as I said before. Marco and many others saw it before I edited it for you Johnny, and didn't see/ read it the way you claim to have. I did give anyone a chance to be one if they wished though, and thanks for the nice e-mail. Thanks, I enjoyed it, but I'm not telling everything I know about steel guitar on this forum, that took me a lifetime to aquire, just so all my friends can argue with me about that too!
Will I always help with any owner/dealer problems? Offer hard to get parts? Yes I always will, and have. I'm always here to help. Anyone can call or e-mail me anytime for any kind of steel guitar assistance.
Yes, you too Johnny, We have a lot of years in this town together, we both had fun. Diana Curry (singer) said to tell you hello. Tell Joan I send my best.
Bobbe

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

(Music starts. Fade to black)

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

Jerry Springer here, signing off until tomorrow night, Don't touch that dial!

Good night bOb, send me a bill for the new hard drive. I think I'm up to 78% now.

Cohen, you are hilarious!

[This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 11 June 2003 at 08:32 PM.]

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