Tone and Sustain Mod

Curt Langston · Post by **Curt Langston** » 1 Nov 2006 6:14 pm

You make it sound like there is absolutely no room for improvement on anything.

I believe there is room for innovative ideas.
So, lets see this new "mod".

What harm can be done by showing and telling?

Let us all see and learn together.

My problem is not so much with the "mod" per se, but all the secrecy that enshrouds it.

Even if it turns out to be nothing more than a popsicle stick making contact with the fingers, I want to see it.

Someone take a pic of this "mod" and post it!

Mitch Ellis · Post by **Mitch Ellis** » 1 Nov 2006 6:53 pm

I have no idea what this mod is, but it has been sugested that it might be the adjusting of screw's, bolt's ect. If that is what Tommy does, he may very well be on to something. Not long ago, I had to take the keyhead off of my SD10. when I put it back on and played it, it sounded "thin". It didn't seem to sound as "clear" and had lost some sustain. Thinking that my little girl had "adjusted

" my amp, I checked the setting's. The amp had not been touched. Two bolt's and one screw holds the keyhead in place. I loosened each 1/2 turn, and the tone and sustain came back. I had tightened the keyhead too tight. I know it sounds far-fetched, but it's true. whatever Tommy does to a steel, if it improves the tone, and makes the owner happy and enjoy playing more, then I wish him success.
Mitch

Al Terhune · Post by **Al Terhune** » 1 Nov 2006 7:14 pm

He had spent years learning exactly which pot and capacitor combination would deliver what desired result depending on wood type and density. Now you can call it crazy for not wanting to share what he knows with the free world, but he has a very special skill and thats why just about every pro player takes their guitars to him to tweak.

Curt and tb -- this evidently meant nothing to you. That's okay. It didn't go everybody's heads. Good examples (but I know these won't mean anything to you either): I don't think anybody else--at least for decades, makes chicken like Colonel Sanders. Why? He didn't let anybody know how he did it! Coke! Pepsi! They all have "secret" ingredients. If you're going to knock Tommy, you're putting him in great company with the likes of KFC, Coke and Pepsi.

If you can't see the anlogies, then again, that's okay. I can tell you one thing -- Tommy doesn't give a hoot.

bOb -- you're a smart guy. Can you argue with the above analogies, along with the one presented about the guitar guy in Nashville?

These analogies show why it's rather ridiculous to show what you do, irregardless of what Carter chose to do.

Al

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 1 Nov 2006 7:34 pm

These analogies show why it's rather ridiculous to show what you do, irregardless of what Carter chose to do.

Public disclosure of an invention is required in order to obtain a patent. It's not ridiculous at all, if what you've done is patentable.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog 
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Eddie D.Bollinger · Post by **Eddie D.Bollinger** » 1 Nov 2006 7:41 pm

Ok, Langston, For the sake of intelligent conversation. Let's call Tommy's work an "adjustment." If you are going to quote me,I simply ask you to do it completely.
The word "Mod" has you all out of sorts, IMHO. Tommy took my Carter guitar and adjusted,Very meticulously, every neck screw, keyhead screw, and anything else that could kill vibration on my guitar. I play every Saturday night and I am digitally
recorded every Saturday Night straight to my
Engineer's hard drive. When I returned the Carter to the stage and played my normal
set on Saturday Night. The engineer, who is not a steel player, asked me after the show
what I had changed. He said he backed all my
steel EQ on the board back to "Flat". In other words, he didn't have to help me none.
That is an improvement Curt.
If you have got a problem with this idea,
you have that freedom. I don't think it is
in anybody's best interest for you to hijack this thread time after time. So there, Tommy "adjusted" my guitar and it's better than it was before he adjusted it. It is not in my head. If it is, I managed to get everybody on that stage to think the same way without saying a word to them.
[This message was edited by Eddie D.Bollinger on 01 November 2006 at 08:19 PM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 1 Nov 2006 8:23 pm

Thank you, Eddie, for letting us know the principle behind what Tommy does. That's all most of us wanted to know, just a general rough idea of what type of alteration he is doing. I don't think any of us expected him to tell us exactly what he does for any particular guitar. It seems to be an art he has gone to some lengths to perfect. Now that I know what to expect, maybe if I lived nearby, I'd take a guitar in to see what he could do with it. I think a little openess like that will get him more business and trust than a complete stone wall of secrecy.

P.S.: I grew up in North Mississippi and lived in Columbus briefly as a kid. Glad to see so many steelers kicking around down there.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 01 November 2006 at 08:32 PM.]

Al Terhune · Post by **Al Terhune** » 1 Nov 2006 11:09 pm

Public disclosure of an invention is required in order to obtain a patent. It's not ridiculous at all, if what you've done is patentable.

Bob, I hate to say it, but you're skirting the issue. We're not talking about an invention. Keep on the subject. We're talking about a personal touch, like our guitar pro in Nashville. Come on, buddy.

Al

Per Berner · Post by **Per Berner** » 2 Nov 2006 12:26 am

If it's all a matter of re-tightening the screws - which may very well have an audible effect - I don't see any need for keeping things secret.

By knowing that fact, I wouldn't all of a sudden know HOW to do it - that would take years of hands-on experience to get right. You wouldn't try do-it-yourself brain surgery after watching a documentary on Discovery, would you?

If it was about installing an easily copied electronic circuit, I'd understand the need for secrecy, but not when it comes to performing "non-invasive" adjustments.

Sadly, anyone who chooses to be this secretive automatically puts himself in the zero trust category - no matter if the mod works or not. I would never ever consider leaving my guitar/amp/car/etc for a tune-up etc to someone who wouldn't tell me what he intended to do with it.

Am I right, or am I right?

------------------
´75 Emmons p/p D10 8+4, '72 AWH Custom D10 8+3, '06 Hybrid Zum SD10 4+5 , Peavey Nashville 1000

Brian Henry · Post by **Brian Henry** » 2 Nov 2006 3:05 am

Now we know. The secret is out. Tightening screws. That is not a new mod!! I have taken many guitars apart and experimented with different screw tensions. The official name for it is adjusting the torque. We do the same thing every day in our BMW workshop.

Many of us have been doing this for years. It takes time. I will continue to adjust my own screws on my pedal steels, but if someone doesn't have the ability or skill to do that, just send it to Tommy. He will tighten your screws for you and you can pay him to do it. After all if you can't remove and tighten your car's oil filter you pay someone to do it. Basically, if you have a screw loose Tommy will take care of it for you

[This message was edited by tbhenry on 02 November 2006 at 03:07 AM.][This message was edited by tbhenry on 03 November 2006 at 05:31 PM.]

Curt Langston · Post by **Curt Langston** » 2 Nov 2006 3:14 am

Sadly, anyone who chooses to be this secretive automatically puts himself in the zero trust category - no matter if the mod works or not.

Agreed.

See, this thread was not hijacked. Basic questions were answered.

Thats all I ever wanted. To say that I wanted to hijack the thread was silly.

Does that mean that anyone who questions something is trying to hijack a thread?

I think not.

This has been good.

Al Terhune · Post by **Al Terhune** » 2 Nov 2006 6:25 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Sadly, anyone who chooses to be this secretive automatically puts himself in the zero trust category - no matter if the mod works or not. I would never ever consider leaving my guitar/amp/car/etc for a tune-up etc to someone who wouldn't tell me what he intended to do with it.

Am I right, or am I right?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, Per. I don't think you're right. Tommy invited anyone -- including you, to call him on the phone to talk about this mod. He has chosen not to do it publically. Until you call him on the phone, you are certainly not correct.

Al

Curt Langston · Post by **Curt Langston** » 2 Nov 2006 7:00 am

The word "Mod" has you all out of sorts, IMHO.

Not out of sorts, just questioning.

He has chosen not to do it publically.

And that is the reason his "mod" was questioned.

I know that proper tension on the screws to the keyhead and changer make a lot of difference. If they are too loose, then you will lose some sustain, and the wood cannot resonate as it should. Thats common sense, not a "mod". I also realize that you have to know how much torque is required, and in what areas.

I'll agree to call it an "adjustment", as opposed to a "mod"

Bobbe Seymour, Billy Cooper and several others do this to a guitar when they service it. And they know what they are doing.

Yet they do not advertise it as a "mod"

It is simply part of their overall setup or reconditioning of the instrument.

I am not certain, but I would wager, that the "mod" or "adjustment" is included in the price of servicing the guitar.

They have been in the business way too long to worry about promoting a gimmick.

They don't need to. They stay busy, from what I hear.[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 02 November 2006 at 07:05 AM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 2 Nov 2006 8:07 am

Sorry Al, I thought you were calling Carter's BCT patent disclosure "ridiculous". I misunderstood your post. My bad.

You are correct. This modification is more like a trade secret than an invention. Trade secrets are a form of intellectual property that can only be protected by keeping them secret.

I have spoken to several people about this, and I'm convinced that Tommy's modifications will change the sustain envelope of the instrument.

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog 
<div style="display:none">

Curt Langston · Post by **Curt Langston** » 2 Nov 2006 8:49 am

Sierra does this with their S-8. The keyhead, nut, and bridge are tightly anchored to a solid piece of aluminum, that runs the length of the guitar. The strings go through the tailpiece.

Thats how they achieve that wonderful sustain!

Eddie D.Bollinger · Post by **Eddie D.Bollinger** » 2 Nov 2006 1:12 pm

IMHO. There has to be many variables in this
process beside proper screw tensions and
adjustmests, Everything plays a part in the
resonance factor. Things like sequence of
procedures could even play a part. I just don't know. Tommy does. I am just speaking
for myself and a few others that I know here
in the area. We are proud to have Tommy in our arsenal when it comes to the search for better sound. Anybody can turn there own screws. It is just nice to have someone who can do it with a great result.

Does that mean that anyone who questions something is trying to hijack a thread?

I am sorry for that comment,Curt,that was unfair. I just go about questioning things
differently than you do, I guess.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 2 Nov 2006 2:23 pm

the only 'mod' i need is on my own diligence and discipline....how could i expect my steel to make something happen when i'm not even giving it all i have to offer in the first place?

Al Terhune · Post by **Al Terhune** » 2 Nov 2006 2:43 pm

Sorry Al, I thought you were calling Carter's BCT patent disclosure "ridiculous". I misunderstood your post. My bad.

Well...I guess in a way I was, ha! I shouldn't have lumped Carter in with the trade secrets, but I was trying to "advance" debate and nip any retorts in the bud, but I weakened my own point.

Thanks for standing by Tommy. He's part of what makes this forum a family that should be on the same side of progress for our beloved instruments. I personally think we're all a smart group, and if one of us gets cheated, it rings out loud and clear, and honest, reputable businesspeople can't afford to mislead us. We're a strong, lobbying group (see Peavey). To me, Tommy comes across, especially with the testimonials, as a smart cookie--who might speak in tongues, but all the speaking we need to hear is through his work and happy customers.

Al

Johnny Harris · Post by **Johnny Harris** » 2 Nov 2006 5:14 pm

Come on Guys,
I don't know Tommy at all, but as I see it, he did not start this thread, or advertise his services,
The thread was started by a very satisfied customer, who should be able to recognize an improvement in the sound of his guitar.
If what Tommy does is simply an enhancement of the guitar's tone, then no one could tell anything from a picture, since his work is stated to be non-invasive.
It may also be that he cannot say what he will do to a particular guitar before he has the chance to listen to it, any more than your doctor could tell you what drug he will prescribe until he see's you.
Tommy has invited any one to call him, So indstead of flaming the man, why not just call him? It seems like some folks just have to keep a flame going.

Al Terhune · Post by **Al Terhune** » 2 Nov 2006 6:43 pm

Well put, Johnny.

Al

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 2 Nov 2006 10:59 pm

I should know better, but here goes: I got no dog in this hunt other than I am a Mullen player. The guitar has a great sound with plenty of punch and sustain. I'm happy with the sound. Someone else might not be.

As an admitted hopeless gearhead, I see nothing wrong with improving on an already great product if you want.
Whether it's needed or merely wanted, is at the discretion of the owner.

As and example, I still have people tell me I'm nuts for buying the LeMay mod for my 400. I don't care what anyone else thinks. I like what I like and I know what I hear. I don't really know or care what he did to it, I just know it sounds better and other people can hear it too. It puts a grin on my face and that's all that matters.

As for the guitar treatment, at least 3 people here have testified to the legitimacy of this man's service and are obviously very happy. And according to them, it is not brand specific.

The negative connotation of some of these replies not only discredit the technician, but your fellow steel players. Seems to me some of you are accusing the tech of selling 'snake oil' and saying those that have bought it don't know when they have been had.

Guys, even pros, are always looking to improve on their sound. I see posts all the time about black boxes, match boxes, speaker swaps, pickup changes....what's different about this?
Even the slightest bit of improvement is worth a lot to some of us. Using the best cords, bars, electronics, speakers, etc. Perhaps not one single item might make a big difference, but all things summed could make the difference in one's satisfaction with the total package. For many of us, if we're hearing a sound we like, we tend to get jazzed on it and play a lot better. If you're one that's not so fussy, just pass on it and let the rest of us waste our money.

Noone is begging anyone to send their axe in for this service. You can just ignore it if you have no interest. You really don't have the right to ask this man to disclose the information to the entire forum just because you think he should. Or to cry wolf without cause.

He has stated that he can be contacted for information about the service if you have a genuine interest.

Peace

[This message was edited by Jerry Overstreet on 02 November 2006 at 11:23 PM.]

Jerry Roller · Post by **Jerry Roller** » 2 Nov 2006 11:03 pm

I sorta have a feeling I know who is gonna have the last laugh here. Speaking of laughing, those Wright Brothers sure must have been nuts thinking they could actually make a machine that could fly.

If this guy has not taken any of your money I don't think you have a gripe, and the guys who have paid him money seem quite happy. I have an idea that will eliminate hysterisis but I think I will keep it a secret until I get a chance to trade it for a brand new D10. I sure would love to have a new LeGrande III, 8+9, Day setup.
Jerry

Tommy Young · Post by **Tommy Young** » 3 Nov 2006 7:27 am

i would like to thank each of u that replyed to this topic because it has gotten my work increased very much and the interest is great the changes that i make are different on each brand of guitar that i have worked on thus far and even some of the same name brand guitars are different as people do require and desire different sound qualities and therefore the pup must differ and ((i do try to change the way it hears the timber of the guitar, most guitars dont let the timber shine thru )), and try to satisfy the individual as to his ability what he wants the end result to be which is sometimes very hard to do, but i do work on the varibles of each guitar and try my best to improve the overall end result ----sometimes a great deal sometimes not, it differs with each PICKER,and GUITAR because if u have a younger inexperienced picker u get medeocre results then if u have a more experenced picker then u get a better end result as the tonal qualities show thru and the difference i have made shines even more thanks for this great forum for allowing this to get to more pickers so that we all can be friends and improve the sounds of this beautiful instrument we have and love thanks very much TOMMY [This message was edited by tommy young on 03 November 2006 at 07:37 AM.][This message was edited by tommy young on 03 November 2006 at 07:49 AM.][This message was edited by tommy young on 03 November 2006 at 07:54 AM.][This message was edited by tommy young on 03 November 2006 at 08:00 AM.][This message was edited by tommy young on 03 November 2006 at 08:05 AM.]

Brian Henry · Post by **Brian Henry** » 3 Nov 2006 3:47 pm

Tommy said,

"(i do try to change the way it hears the timber of the guitar, most guitars dont let the timber shine thru ))"

This is a very erudite statement. I agree with Tommy that the shine on the "timber" is critical. Most pedal steels are made from maple "timber" and you can hear the sound comming through. But as Tommy says most guitars don't let the "timber" shine through. Last time I checked my pedal steel I could see the "timber" shining through clear and strong. Perhaps if one was to apply a laquer underneath the guitar one could see the "timber" shinning through.

Perhaps if you want top improve your "resonance potential" in addition to tightening your screws you could do something to let the "timber" shine through. I am considering stripping off the mica on my Emmons Legrande so that the "timber" can shine through. (PS I really do know what timbre is!!

[This message was edited by tbhenry on 03 November 2006 at 10:03 PM.]

Al Terhune · Post by **Al Terhune** » 3 Nov 2006 4:32 pm

Tommy -- that's great this have given you high exposure and more business.

As mentioned by Jerry, most innovaters have to wade through the hecklers. You've maintained your integrity in a stand-up fashion. I'm proud we're brothers through this forum.

Al

P Gleespen · Post by **P Gleespen** » 3 Nov 2006 5:13 pm

tb, I think if you're going to rag on a guy for spelling timbre incorrectly, it's important not to screw up the spelling of so many other words.