The Steel Guitar Forum

Chris Walke wrote:Get someone to record a few songs at a gig and listen back. If he is definitely stomping all over your moments, play them back and ask how the two of you can work together to avoid this and make the band sound polished. That's about as diplomatic as you can get, I think.

Exactly, I couldn't agree more.
Recordings taught me and my band mates when we overplay,underplay,have poor dynamics as a group.

I am fortunate to play in a group that is unselfish,and finally realized that less is more.

Billy
I played with one local band where the lead player was ludicrously loud all the way through each number. It was (is) a Tex-Mex type band. From the first number everyone just played louder to match the lead player. I simply stopped playing as I wasn't going to get into that game of who can play loudest.

I just left the band shortly after much to the band leader's disappointment. He was also the band's lead vocalist. Despite repeated requests from the gig organisers for the band to turn down they just continued. The band leader didn't have the balls to tell the lead player to turn down. He know what the problem was, and could have easily sorted it out. He just needed to grow a pair.

Fred Treece wrote:Speaking of vocals...As I noted in the other thread where that clip was posted...

Is there a discussion about this video somewhere else? If so, mind giving the link?

I've been watching this live video very often and it has unexpectedly become my favorite live video featuring steel of ALL time. The steel player here (Mike Bourque) plays the most perfect parts, with perfect tone, with the steel being perfect in the mix, even the camera angle and lighting are perfect! not mention the other musicians being
also super-awesome. This video made me realize that steel sounds best when it's mixed slightly louder than the lead vocals, electric guitar next, then vocals together with everything else. For this mix to work, everyone must play without stepping onto each other which is what this discussion is about.

Oh yeah, there's also part two of the show: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMcP0ObCgBw

Here ya go Jacek.
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtop ... sc&start=0

He must be from Florida.

I played in a band 2003 to 2005 that had a fiddle player that had played square dances for years. He would kick all the songs off and play the whole song to shave and a hair cut on the end. He could not get out and back in songs. If he played through a microphone it was not to bad, He would step back from the mike and lead guitar, keyboard and steel could do some fills and rides.
The last night I played with the band, They came up 1 microphone short on stage. He plugged his fiddle into an open back amp. and set it in front of me and Eddy the keyboard player. We could not hear ourselves. What a bad night for both of us.

Deja Vous now with a young lead player.

Fred Treece wrote:Here ya go Jacek.
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtop ... sc&start=0

Thanks, Fred. Lots of good videos in that discussion.

Dave Hopping:

And where did most six stringers cut their musical teeth? Rock and roll, the MORE ME genre. While Jim's right to point out that the bandleader has final say about SPL, and that for innumerable reasons it's unhelpful for one sideman to tell another what and how loud to play,rock's anti-authoritarian DNA operates against that sort of good sense. Jim's also right to say that MORE ME territory has a goodly proportion of vocalists, drummers, bassists ,keyboardists, string-players and blowers of horns as well, all of whom would rather listen to themselves than the rest of the band.

WHAT?

And where are your sources for THAT absurd data? First, your implied correlation between 6 string plsyers in a band with pedal steel "cutting their teeth" in rock and roll; and second, the ridiculous "More ME genre" mental picture painted of players in rock bands,.

I assume you have between zero and 2% on stage experience playing in rock bands. Every one I have played in, produced, mixed or managed has been as...and in the majority of the cases more democratic, cooperative and aware of the overall levels and mix than most of the country bands I've worked with.

It may have been that I played in some bad country bands - which is true - but The idea that rock players as a whole are compltely self-centered and could n'y care less about burying bandmates volume wise is stylistically prejudicial position not based in fact. My guess is you WANT it to be like that so you say it is.

again - absurd.

And nowhere did I state - as you attribute to me - that other players of some specific instruments AND singers are concerned only with hearing themselves.

Don't put words in my mouth, especially contentious ones.

Do not mention me again - go find someone else to play your silly lie-filled games with.

Jim Sliff wrote:Dave Hopping:

And where did most six stringers cut their musical teeth? Rock and roll, the MORE ME genre. While Jim's right to point out that the bandleader has final say about SPL, and that for innumerable reasons it's unhelpful for one sideman to tell another what and how loud to play,rock's anti-authoritarian DNA operates against that sort of good sense. Jim's also right to say that MORE ME territory has a goodly proportion of vocalists, drummers, bassists ,keyboardists, string-players and blowers of horns as well, all of whom would rather listen to themselves than the rest of the band.

WHAT?

And where are your sources for THAT absurd data? First, your implied correlation between 6 string plsyers in a band with pedal steel "cutting their teeth" in rock and roll; and second, the ridiculous "More ME genre" mental picture painted of players in rock bands,.

I assume you have between zero and 2% on stage experience playing in rock bands. Every one I have played in, produced, mixed or managed has been as...and in the majority of the cases more democratic, cooperative and aware of the overall levels and mix than most of the country bands I've worked with.

It may have been that I played in some bad country bands - which is true - but The idea that rock players as a whole are compltely self-centered and could n'y care less about burying bandmates volume wise is stylistically prejudicial position not based in fact. My guess is you WANT it to be like that so you say it is.

again - absurd.

And nowhere did I state - as you attribute to me - that other players of some specific instruments AND singers are concerned only with hearing themselves.

Don't put words in my mouth, especially contentious ones.

Do not mention me again - go find someone else to play your silly lie-filled games with.

Gosh,Jim....The catchphrase "It might get loud" sure DIDN'T come from the Time Jumpers or the Texas Troubadors,now did it? And neither did "If it's too loud,you're too old".

Jim Sliff wrote:.. playing in rock bands. Every one I have played in, produced, mixed or managed has been as...and in the majority of the cases more democratic, cooperative and ..

Makes me wish I had been in your band instead of playing with all those unpleasant people that I've played with.

Makes me wish I had been in your band instead of playing with all those unpleasant people that I've played with.

Indeed, Earnest.

Bring a dog to pet to your next gig. When stuff is getting to be too jumbled, you and the 6-stringer can take turns petting the dog. Problem solved

I had thought that the ability to be unpleasant was a necessary component of a successful career in music, but it's possible I missed a memo or something

Are you making your living off playing? If not quit and find another group, you don't see that in Nashville with live bands. They play for their living and if not done the right way they don't get work. I've been to Scotland and seems there is a LOT music being playing to sound tracks, with one or two live musicians. Sign of the times economically, even more so now...oh and part of the problem logistically for guitar players that overplay is that they've spent a lot of time playing in a three piece band where they HAD to play all the time. Hard habit to break unless there are consequences. Just to be fair same goes for steel guitarist, nobody is immune

Billy Murdoch wrote:Thanks for the prompt replies Gents.
I have no wish to start confrontations and possible bad feeling. I wonder if the Jeff Newman story could be implemented.Whist visiting London jeff had been asked to sit in for a little while with a local band and after a couple of songs(Very loud band) the bandleader asked jeff why they could not hear the steel Oh said Jeff I didn't think You wanted Me to play !!
I was thinking about backing off and letting the lead player be heard as top dawg and see If I get any comments.

And in one of Jeff's classes I attended he would say that playing in the right spot and doing it properly was like waiting at the train station ready to board while everyone else in the band was on the train rolling down the tracks.. hard temptation to resist

By the way,spectacular Scotland! I played at the Thurso British Legion (Northern Nashville Connection) surreal, seemed like it could have been in my own backyard

Another issue is that I believe a large amount of the problem with most lead players is that they simply must have some level of crunch, overdrive, or distortion in most everything they play. We eschew distortion, while lead players love it. Distorted sounds carry or "cut through" better, and they're also more offensive to anyone who plays clean (or possibly those who don't scream when they sing).

The fact is...country players can play rock, but rock players CANNOT play country.

Rich Upright wrote:The fact is...country players can play rock, but rock players CANNOT play country.

My heart ain't ready for THIS....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwEOZtJm8pU

Dave Hopping wrote:

Rich Upright wrote:The fact is...country players can play rock, but rock players CANNOT play country.

My heart ain't ready for THIS....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwEOZtJm8pU

Well, for a rock band, it was OK. Better than most. When rock guitar players try to play country, they all sound like Dickey Betts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWKwTkL-gvY

Another "rock" band that could surely do country when they wanted to....

Michael Stephens wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWKwTkL-gvY

Another "rock" band that could surely do country when they wanted to....

True, except the bass line in this song is totally innapropriate, which is exactly what I was referring to about rockers trying to play country. They might hit the right notes, but rockers just don't have the "feel". I more prefer the American Beauty/Workingman's Dead albums.

Rich Upright wrote:The fact is...country players can play rock, but rock players CANNOT play country.

I agree with this 99%.

The exceptions that are being made are groups rooted in the 60’s, fresh out of the Folk music revival and who indeed cut their teeth on Country and Delta Blues, Appalachian Mountain songs and British Isle tunes from that period, and always included attempts at country music on their albums. Many of those attempts were pretty bad. The Doobs’ Black Water is the only real quality hit (Please don’t mention The Girl With The Far-away Eyes - It’s funny and it’s cute but it ain’t great Country). Dire Straits could out-Country just about every Rock band that ever was, but again, look at their deep folk roots. 80’s Rock bands like Van Halen and Metallica or 90’s Green Day have never touched Country, and probably for two good reasons - they can’t play it and their audiences would not tolerate it.

And when you get down to the local-yokel level, it has been my experience that Rich’s comment is 100% correct. In fact, some of the country bands are better rock bands than the many of the rock bands.

Fred and Rich, why do you think that is?

I've got an idea that the difference is in rhythmic feel. Old country swings a lot, and most more modern rock is straight up eighths almost exclusively.

You can't play a country shuffle like that.

Then there's Waylon, who had his own thing that is neither of those.

The fact is, most musicians play rock for 2 reasons:
1.It's the easiest music to play & 2. You can suck at it & still sound pretty decent.

" 80’s Rock bands like Van Halen and Metallica or 90’s Green Day have never touched Country, and probably for two good reason"

Actually, Van Halen used to end their shows with a killer version of "Happy Trails".

https://youtu.be/nRaKs8triCY

Not that much really pretty musical structure in some sub genre of rock. A lot of big power chords and fast wailing guitars to really hard beats and loud stout bass....to some equals music. To me...it’s pure noise that just about any average player could fake enough to get by.

There are exceptions. Some “rock” is very good and clever, and with some reservations, a pleasure to listen to. Not all that challenging to play, and not necessarily “pretty” but pleasurable to listen to.

Some really die hard country purists would not be able to play r&r to a high level, imho.

But, the typical commercial, hard country musician I do agree can play both styles equally well.

I’ve been on some commercial jobs where they had hired “rockers” and they were purely lost on most all commercial country tunes.

Everyone’s experiences will vary on this. There are exceptions to every generalization here I think.

Bill