Steel Builders - roller groove calculator

Karlis Abolins · Post by **Karlis Abolins** » 23 Mar 2005 7:12 am

I recently completed a machine shop course at a local vocational school and decided to put my roller groove calculator to a test. I made a set of gauged rollers for my 12 string Remington Sustainmaster tuned to Extended E9. I used http://home.comcast.net/~k.abolins/groove12.xls to calculate the groove depth and made the rollers out of 1/2 inch brass stock turned to .493 inch. The results have exceeded my expectations. I am able to slide to the open position and back without any appreciable string noise. Here are the specs and pictures:

<pre>Extended E9 gauged rollers
string note gauge groove depth
1 F# .013 .0135
2 D# .016 .0168
3 G# .011 .0081
4 E .013 .0099
5 B .018 .0163
6 G# .022w .0211
7 F# .028 .0289
8 E .030 .0307
9 D .036 .0385
10 B .038 .0404
11 G# .048 .0542
12 E .060 .071</pre>

Karlis

Jim Palenscar · Post by **Jim Palenscar** » 23 Mar 2005 7:35 am

repeating what Ed said- GREAT THREAD

Hans Holzherr · Post by **Hans Holzherr** » 25 Mar 2005 7:22 am

Karlis, my own groove calculation table has been up on the web for at least a year at http://homepage.hispeed.ch/updowncat/roller_grooves.htm It covers standard tunings and string gauges, as well as variations thereof.

The table differs from yours in that the exposed amount is not a constant, but the numbers are optimized for least working time if you convert non-gauged rollers, because there is always an inclination angle across the tops of the rollers to be calculated which insures that 3, 4, or even 5 rollers can be left as they are, or cut to the same depth if made new.

Hope that helps anybody willing to do a conversion.

Hans

Jimmie Martin · Post by **Jimmie Martin** » 25 Mar 2005 10:11 am

does the brass help the tone.

Karlis Abolins · Post by **Karlis Abolins** » 25 Mar 2005 11:30 am

Robert, Does brass help the tone? I really don't know. I know that brass is easy to work and is used fequently for rollers. My Sustainmaster had brass rolloers on it when I got it and I just went with it. I don't know if I am ready to experiment with other metals. I would want something that wouldn't rust like stainless steel but I would have to defer to people who have more experience.

Karlis

Danny James · Post by **Danny James** » 4 Apr 2005 4:39 pm

Fellows I just had to get in on this great thread. I made a set of gauged rollers out of stainless steel that worked very well with what for me was a very simple method.
We ordered a set of pin gauges from wholesale tool company. Using a pin of the same diameter as each string I turned a piece of stainless steel. Then cut a 60 deg groove and using micrometers mic'ed the distance from the opposite side of the roller to the top of the other side with the pin gauge laying in the groove. Making about .015 clearance for the first string then as I machined the next one I cut the groove to a depth where the next string dia. pin laying in the groove gave the same reading as the last one from the opposite side of the roller to the top of the pin gauge. All strings were on the same plane this way. I always ended up with the same reading no matter what diameter pin gauge was used which was determined by the depth of the groove.
Danny

Karlis Abolins · Post by **Karlis Abolins** » 5 Apr 2005 10:04 am

Danny, Your technique for making gauged rollers is simple but to the point. No calculations are required - all you need is the string gauge and a corresponding pin gauge.
My technique is to calculate the depth of the grooves using my excel fornulas and then using a dial gauge on my lathe cross-slide to go the calculated depth while cutting the groove.
The key to my formula is the 60 degree threading tool. It makes all of the calculations a snap. Other groove angles would require much more complex calculations. Your method eliminates any calculations.

Karlis

Danny James · Post by **Danny James** » 6 Apr 2005 7:07 am

Karlis,
Thanks for the reply I'm sure your technique is accurate and will work and I appreciate all your time and effort to explain in detail how you machined your roller grooves, however I notice you give your groove depths carried out to tenths of thousandths. I have a new lathe that I can usually hold to .oo1, but I am not precision enough of a machinest to hold in tenths on a lathe. I used to do it all the time on a Cincinatti External Grinder at Cummins and using a profilometer ( shadow graph ) to check my work in tenths. How much tolerance do you calculate is allowable without effecting form fit or function?

Karlis Abolins · Post by **Karlis Abolins** » 6 Apr 2005 7:56 am

Danny, That is a good question. Clearly my dial gauge is calibrated to .001" but there is a lot of white space between the lines. I am probably getting no more accurate than .0005". But practically speaking, my completed set of gauged rollers on my Remington Extended E9 show no appreciable gap on the strings and no buzzing even if I fret at the nut. When you think about it, .0005" or even .001" is a very small distance. I think that tolerances of .005" or .01" may be tolerable to some players and still be an improvement over what they have to work with today.

Karlis

Danny James · Post by **Danny James** » 6 Apr 2005 7:22 pm

Karlis,
I agree, the main thing is the end result. A person once told me if you can't see it or hear it as far as he is concerned it ain't there.
It's a lot of fun ironing out these difficult problems.
I appreciate your research and what you have accomplished. This is a great Forum and it's neat when we can get technical with our ideas and once in while we learn some valuable info.
Danny

Klaus Caprani · Post by **Klaus Caprani** » 7 Apr 2005 12:07 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>An adjustable STEEL, specially designed for Farris by a book-genius.
No more string rattle!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL. Peter! You gotta have way to much time at your hands. Simply amazing

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Klaus Caprani

MCI RangeXpander S-10 3x4
www.klauscaprani.com

Hans Holzherr · Post by **Hans Holzherr** » 7 Apr 2005 1:49 pm

Other groove angles would require much more complex calculations.

Not very complex, really, but once it's done, it's done. You can enter any groove angle you want in my table (see my earlier post), but 60° is the standard, I think.

Hans

Jim Thompson · Post by **Jim Thompson** » 5 Jun 2006 3:53 pm

jay thompson · Post by **jay thompson** » 5 Jun 2006 5:08 pm

Within the last year or more, Carl Dixon posted a photo of a keyhead that had individually adjustable rollers. The keyhead had been accomplished using only a drill press. A search for Carl Dixon's past postings comes up empty. were all of his posts erased?
Regards, Jay thompson

Dave Burr · Post by **Dave Burr** » 6 Jun 2006 5:16 am

Here it is Jay. http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/007770.html

I sure do miss Carl! God bless him.

Respectfully,
dBurr

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 6 Jun 2006 6:01 am

The left hand is the answer to the buzzing problems at the first fret of any steel with the same guage rollers. I've heard this debate for years. I don't see any need for gauged rollers.

If a keyless guitar with no rollers and the guitars that use the same guage rollers work perfectly fine at the first fret without buzzing, why become so consumed with gauged rollers as the answer?

Why are so many Bud's and PP's found on recordings in the key of F using every possible combination of strings at the first fret, if buzzing was a problem for those players?

The string gauges determine the bars angle across them and this is all any guitar design needs to have a perfectly playable instrument at every fret. Proper bar control solves any buzzing problems at the first fret.

Having taught many seminars with Jeff, we would always ask the attending "If anyone had problems, playing or mechanical"? "Strings buzzing at the first fret because of soft bar pressure" always came up. We would sit down and play at the first fret without any problems and emphasis the importance of mastering the left hand.

The bar pressure needs to change per fret, however minimal, to maintain the proper sound and tuning. The first fret requires the most downward pressure. What's the problem with that? I know, the guaged roller argument is that it makes it easier to play, to which I say, "Watch Buddy Emmons play to see why we all should master a firm bar pressure as well as a softer bar pressure. Both need to be mastered. The bar is also used for creating dynamics all over the guitar. Those that want it to be easy and constant across the neck don't understand the musical dynamics that will eventually benefit them.

The plus about not having rollers or gauged rollers is that the player is not locked in to using the same guages on that guitar.

I am not a fan of guaged rollers. I love the freedom of changing guages at will without having to consider if the guage of the roller needs to also change with the string.

Paul[This message was edited by Franklin on 06 June 2006 at 07:54 AM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 6 Jun 2006 7:42 am

This is one place where I completely disagree with Paul. I will admit that I never noticed the problem on 10-string E9. Also, on C6, C# is not a very common chord. So I can understand why D10 players don't see this as a serious problem. But on a 12-string extended E9 there is a problem, not only at the F fret, but especially if you want to slide over the nut and slide back onto the strings. The biggest offender by far is a 12-string E9/B6 universal. One is at the first fret a lot for F and C chords, as well as Am with the E-lower lever. I like to be able to slide up to those first fret chords from the nut. With that huge low B string, which really needs to be about 0.072 gauge, if that roller is not gauged, there is a huge gap under the bar. It is very difficult to press hard enough at the first, or even second fret, and sliding over the nut is like scraping fingernails on a chalk board.

Again, I understand why D10 players don't see this as a big problem. But for 12- and 14-stringers, it's a mechanical problem with a mechanical fix that several manufacturers have mastered. It doesn't have to be perfect - close works way better than "no attempt."

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Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 6 Jun 2006 4:11 pm

David,

Its cool if you disagree. I play in C# all the time as well as F and have had no problems sliding from frets 0 to 1 or o to 2. I have alot of licks out of those positions with slides using the open position. I have played 12 strings and also had no problem.

Long before there were gauged rollers guys were sliding off and on from the open position and also playing songs behind singers in C# and F.

Paul

Dick Wood · Post by **Dick Wood** » 6 Jun 2006 4:59 pm

I played guitars with regular rollers for 24 years and it never was a big deal. I just got a new Williams Crossover with gauged rollers and I have to say it is a huge improvement over non gauged in my opinion.

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Cops aren't paid much so I steel at night.