The Steel Guitar Forum

There was a thread about "Is there such a thing as a single C6?" and the answer came back "not many".

Maybe an E9 with four pedals might be a suitable subject for conversion.

I see a lot of posts about why not to have a C6th neck. I've always had a D-10 pedal steel and never gave it a thought that I shouldn't or didn't need it. My first pedal steel was a Fender 2000 then on to a 71 PP Emmons and finally to my current Franklin.

Most of my band playing, over the last 59 years I've played pedal steel, I've had free will to play what I want. Its mainly E9th but I may throw in some C6th just for a different sound. I may just lower the E's on E9th ALA a universal and play some 6th or same way with the AB pedals down.

I've taken my wife's GFI Expo S-10 out on a few jobs and I miss the double neck guitar (I wish it was an SD-10) or the C6th neck.

I'm trying to think who actually cares what neck you're on. As long as the right sounds are coming out, not the band, and not the audience unless it contains a steel buff or two.

Ian Rae wrote:I'm trying to think who actually cares what neck you're on. As long as the right sounds are coming out, not the band, and not the audience unless it contains a steel buff or two.

While this is true, the voicings are different which may match a particular piece of music better...or worse I suppose ! We are part of the band and the sound of the band/songs should be important to the band, even if there are no listeners ! No different than using different guitar chord voicings for various songs, 9th's or 6th's , based on the piece.

We would be surprised at how many "Steel literate" people are indeed in an audience or attend a dance. They know the difference in the sound from a Hank Sr song and an Alan Jackson song.

We have recently started playing Night Life, using Buddys extended intro and progressions. Its very identifiable and not well fit for the E9th, although some will say it is. It may very well be capable on the E9th but it's extra work, while on the C6th , it's right there in front of our noses, just waiting for us ! Why would we want to learn it on the E9th when the C6th is right there in front of us. thats not a trick question !

I believe the point of this discussion might be why are we carrying around a D10 and never touching it.

thats a different subject.

Tony, according to the OP that's exactly the point of this discussion

I don't claim to be an expert, but I'd wager that the (10-string) C6th offers a chordal impact that just can't be done on E9th, probably due to the lower notes and the different intervals. Chalker's "Big Hits On Big Steel" is a landmark album, and I recommend it highly for anyone interested in non-country C6th. It shows a style and insight that no other player had.

For those interested in getting into their C6 necks: C6 Essentials

Donny Hinson wrote:I don't claim to be an expert, but I'd wager that the (10-string) C6th offers a chordal impact that just can't be done on E9th, probably due to the lower notes and the different intervals. Chalker's "Big Hits On Big Steel" is a landmark album, and I recommend it highly for anyone interested in non-country C6th. It shows a style and insight that no other player had.

Just wondering, does extended E9 make up for the lower strings on the C6 to some degree?

Yes.

Paul Sutherland wrote:I think it all comes down to the styles of music you (and the rest of the band) want to play. E9 is pretty universal; virtually everyone likes it to varying degrees. C6th, on the other hand, has a sizable, but somewhat smaller audience.

Many groups I've worked with don't seem to know how to play any chords beyond major, minor, and dominant seventh. My time spent trying to get a handle on jazz theory and progressions has been mostly wasted. The musicians you play with may present a roadblock to developing as a solid C6th player. Of course, there are exceptions.

If you're motivated to make money, make E9 your main focus. If the music calls for C6th it's great. But if you're not playing that kind of music then it becomes just an arm rest.

I pretty much agree with Paul, it depends on the kind of music your playing, most importantly, if your making a living playing, I find it pretty hard pressed that anyone is making a living playing more C6 than E9th. Unless your playing a lot of Western Swimg gigs, Western Swing sessions or a lot of steel guitar shows where you can showcase the C6 more, there’s just not that much call for it in today’s music. Sadly, it boils down to this, if you want to work, you have to somehat adapt to some of today’s music, which mostly calls for E9th. As the saying goes, C6 for show and E9th for dough. I’ve been playing a D10 guitar for 32 years now, and I’ve probably only used C6 about 20% of the time. There’s also this consensus from some players that have D10 guitars but don’t play any C6, is that D10’s sound better. I know that that’s a subjective opinion, but that is a reason alone why some players play a D10. I think a person has to pretty much do what they feel is best. There’s really no right or wrong. Just my opinion, I myself do not feel the C6 is an easy neck. To me, some things just don’t lay as well or easy as it does on the E9th.

Many of us have good jobs during the day and we do good work. We are high quality employees or we run our own business. But thats not who we are. We are something totally different.

Playing E9th is what we do to stay active musically in and around our locality. Thats a VERY GOOD thing. If we decide to jump into the lower ten or play another Instrument , that may be for us personally, even if we only show our new skill now and then.

Guitar players or Piano players don't play their full blown skill when they perform in a pop band or a Country band either. They play the music that is called for. No different than E9 vs C6. Difference is they do it on ONE instrument while we do it "basically" on TWO. Its the same thing.

What Tony says applies to any instrument - the full range is rarely shown on any job, just the bits the composer or arranger (which includes ourselves) has need for.

As Tony said:

While this is true, the voicings are different which may match a particular piece of music better...or worse I suppose ! We are part of the band and the sound of the band/songs should be important to the band, even if there are no listeners ! No different than using different guitar chord voicings for various songs, 9th's or 6th's , based on the piece.

Exactly. I've heard many 6th players (Maurice Anderson, Sneaky Pete) play the E9 licks, and they just don't have bite and general tonality, to me, that the E9 has. All the stuff that Pete did for Ronstadt, I would rather have heard an E9 player like Dugmore, Emmons, Al Perkins.. I could go on forever on players I would rather hear than Pete. Never really cared for him..

There is a guitar player that I have had the misfortune of playing with numerous times. Doing a strait (misspelled on purpose because of the rest of this sentence) country song like The Fireman. He is a jazz player trying to play country (unsuccessfully in my opinion). Jazz chords all over those kinds of songs. Very innapropriate to me.

And, the part about being part of a band and the sound should be important to the band. That should include taking your hands off the guitar when the steel guitar shouldn't neccessarily be heard. Don't over play.

We would be surprised at how many "Steel literate" people are indeed in an audience or attend a dance. They know the difference in the sound from a Hank Sr song and an Alan Jackson song.

Another great point. They know the difference (maybe), but don't know why. How many actually say, "that steel guitar sounds great, it makes the band", or "that band really needs a steel guitar, why don't they have one". Or even, "why doesn't this major artist no longer have a steel guitar in their band". I would imagine that those numbers are really small.

Interesting discussion and I can only speak for myself.

I play a bi-monthly show (that's twice a month by the way ) and have for 4 years now . The regular audience is older and are "mature" music fans , country, some rock and roll, bluegrass etc... In many cases the regular attending audience members and the band are now on first name basis. Many of them also attend different shows a few of us band members may also play in the area.

During my tenure with this particular group, I was also playing a dance with another group not far away on rotating Fr nights for about two years, many of the same folks attend .

You would be totally shocked to learn how many people indeed are very familiar with records and various Steel players thru the years that played on records. I am approached constantly with " did you ever hear xxx play with xxx ?

Many of these folks are very tuned into the music and can tell us who played on what record with who ! I have been asked about songs with Steel that I didn't even know existed !

I play Tele's on many songs as well and it's not uncommon to be approached after our shows for someone to say. "Tony, you know you're supposed to play Steel on that song " !

Maybe some people don't know much about the music or the Steel,

But many DO KNOW !

I'm also asked many times how I like the Emmons compared to a Sho Bud ! No lie !

I've come to learn that having a Steel in the band for many of these folks is a bright spot for them , they love it as much as we (the players) do. For me it's quite rewarding, getting to know these folks and talking with them after each show. They are just so appreciative of the whole thing. And me, I'm just so appreciative to be part of this small show.

A few tunes that are on our regular set list, because they keep asking for them

Farewell Party- E9th
I Love You Because -C6
Night Life - C6
Danny Boy -E9th ( Instrumental )
Sweet Memories- E9th ( Instrumental )
Last Date - E9th

just to name a few

The people in the audience who know and recognize the pedal steel and it's unique sounds are, by and large, older folks. Even when I play where there are young people in the audience, they seldom express any interest in the steel guitar. Of course, if I did goofy stuff, like making race-car or airplane sounds, that would probably change.

Tony...

Maybe where you are they know. You are in a totally different world down there than I am in northern California. You are very lucky for that. You rarely find a band that has "regular" gigs. You might play a place and it could be a month or two before you are back there. The places here, you very rarely have someone even come to talk to you. Back in the old days when you had a sit down house gig, you could get people that turn into friends, but those days are gone. I had one house gig, two nights a week during the Urban Cowboy era, for over a year. Then some four and five night a week jobs in larger venues that were not so easy. Some of them knew me and what my instrument was. Those days are gone (unfortunately).

There are no real country gigs here any more. I imagine it's that way in a lot of places. Those songs you mentioned are almost never done, and instrumentals are pretty much extinct. I've played tons of instrumentals on gigs in the past, mostly on C6. They just don't go over in the new country world. Some bands I have been with don't even want to do an instrumental. It's a shame, really. It's all new country now. Steel gets buried. Nowadays, these younger crowds are more interested in getting drunk and trying to get laid. Older people stay away because they can't stand the music and the rowdyness of the younger folks.

I wish I was lucky enough to be in a situation like yours.

Oddly in the greater Baltimore area (within an hours drive) (everything is odd here) we have at least 5 excellent steel players. The music scene is unique. There seems to be a lot of people playing, sometimes people are listening. Mostly based around cool singers and bands (Caleb Stine and Arty Hill are both drivers here).

I could see the music scene crumbling here but currently it’s so great. I don’t totally get why. The jazz scene is out of control. Makes no sense but it’s true.

Richard, I left Ct in 1989, I played the Dance circuit there , pretty much the same songs for 20 years. When I moved to NC I hooked up with bands playing the Dance circuits, same songs,same older age groups. We are not playing bars,we are at Legion Halls, Armory's, Lodges etc...Just as I did in Ct.


I guess I was lucky, I filled a seat that someone left open. The bands been there 7 years, me only 4 of them ! But even at that my regular band, 50/50 Country and Rock played around town for near 10 years non stop. We still do !


My bi monthly gig is a mix of 50', 60's + Traditional Country ,some new Country, some Blues. We are primarily a Country band though. I am expected to front two songs each gig, each band member is. I am not held to any specific style. The dances we play around the region are the same. I know several Steel players who work a very similar circuit and they are 200 miles away for me !

I also play multiple outlets ( Custom Beer joints) where we play duo's or trio's usually I'm on Dobro or Acoustic with these. These places are popping up like flies , while they are Beer joints, they are family oriented with a Food Truck.

If nobody around you is providing a venue or Dances with this music then obviously nobody will show up. Its sad.


And yes, the audience is NOT bar huggers or New Country big hat fanatics. Agreed , there are very few venues providing anything like that .

Charlotte is a Rock and Roll / Blues Town but there is still plenty going on around the perimeter.

I can't say why Ca hasn't joined the party. Sad. Why not find a venue and start a small show, see what happens. Ya just never know. Of course you are not going to earn $150/gig. Find a way. This is how this 4 year gig I am on began which was 7 years ago. Many older people reside in Assisted Living Homes etc, those places have music all the time. Just a thought

Paul McEvoy wrote:

Donny Hinson wrote:I don't claim to be an expert, but I'd wager that the (10-string) C6th offers a chordal impact that just can't be done on E9th, probably due to the lower notes and the different intervals. Chalker's "Big Hits On Big Steel" is a landmark album, and I recommend it highly for anyone interested in non-country C6th. It shows a style and insight that no other player had.

Just wondering, does extended E9 make up for the lower strings on the C6 to some degree?

The pedals and levers on the E9 tuning is based on diatonic harmony with parallel motion in the voicings. The C6 pedals are all about creating tri tones and altered notes

Plus the C6 tuning can be played without pedals or slants and all the basic chords are available. Not so on the E9.

They are very different animals. The only thing the extended E9 with contribute is some low notes. It will not give you the logic or elegance of the C6.

I agree wthDonny about the chordal thing.

In defense of E9, major and minor triads and inversions are laid out fairly logically and can be played with no pedals or slants. The no-pedals minor grips are not as convenient as they are on C6. Several tritone intervals are available with and without pedals. I agree that altered dominants seem elusive on E9, but strategic use of 9th and 13th chord voicings in tritone positions, as well as augmented chords, can make up for some of that.

The truth about C6 is that it has been mythologized as the “jazz” neck, while E9 has been mythologized as the “money” neck. Buddy and Curly played all their jazz on C6 and all their country on E9. Something tells me they could have reversed that if they wanted, but it was in their bones and habits and history (and paychecks) to do it the way they did.

I have a tangential question in regard to this topic. Of all the pre-pedal tunings, is it fair to say C6 was the granddaddy that most players cut their teeth on? Did some of the great players of the swing/bop era resent the popularity and development of E9?

Jerry Byrd famously disliked pedals and the E9 sound. others like Don Helms made the switch to pedals but eventually returned to non-pedal.

I'm very interested in the development of pedal C6. I've been under the impression that Buddy Emmons came up with most of the pedal and lever changes, but is that the case?

I'm not familiar with the pedal changes that Alvino Rey and others developed, and if/how they relate to pedal C6 as we know it today. this may not be the proper thread for it, but I'd love to see a history or timeline of how the C6 tuning evolved and who all was responsible. has anyone done this?

scott murray wrote:Jerry Byrd famously disliked pedals and the E9 sound. others like Don Helms made the switch to pedals but eventually returned to non-pedal.

I'm very interested in the development of pedal C6. I've been under the impression that Buddy Emmons came up with most of the pedal and lever changes, but is that the case?

I'm not familiar with the pedal changes that Alvino Rey and others developed, and if/how they relate to pedal C6 as we know it today. this may not be the proper thread for it, but I'd love to see a history or timeline of how the C6 tuning evolved and who all was responsible. has anyone done this?

paul franklin talks about this on this video.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phDJy_IiR1Y

To me, the C6 pedals make a lot more sense when trying to learn non-pedal C6. Every time I would have to learn to use a slant, I would think, "Hm. A pedal would be useful here."

Then I started learning C6 on a pedal steel and saw that all those changes I was wishing I had were already there!

FWIW, somewhere I read on the forum that C6 is an attitude as well as a tuning. YMMV