The Steel Guitar Forum

Bar slants are required, not only for harmony, but to enhance the tonal separation between notes. Two distinctly different string lengths, terminated on one end by a slanted bar, produce a unique harmonic content not possible with pedals. The steel player who does not slant the bar cheats himself and his listeners out of one of the most sublime qualities of the instrument.

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<small><img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic

Bobby Lee,

There was never a dull moment using pedals, since Bud Isaacs introduced the split pedals with a song called, "Slowly I'm Falling More In Love With You". When steel guitarists who played "straight" steel heard those changes, they converged on him to inquire about the new sound. I would have to look into the facts, by making inquiries, but there is no need to go there. My musical pleasures are derived from the same sources as those of yours. Jerry Byrd's "Among My Souvenirs" is a good example of music that I enjoy. I actually have a great deal of respect for Dobroists, and lap steel players. I attended the Canaan Valley Music Festival about 20 years ago. It was there that I met a Dobroist with the name Johnny on his guitar strap. I sat in with him, during his set. He was unbelievable, and I
marvelled at his abilities. I would imagine he could have torn the place up playing lap steel.

BOb, you have presented a very strong argument by pointing out the merits of straight steel, and bar slants. I'm in agreement with you, and I thank you for the informative reply.

Bill H.

The first instruction I ever owned was the Winnie Winston book, and I believe it states, as well as other publications on steel 101, is you rarely look at your right hand, but look at the left for bar position and what strings you are picking. If I had to look slightly above this position and without fret markers, I would be missing notes all night. If you say this is good for beginers, at what point do you do away with this device, or this intended to be a permanent attachment to your steel? I think it's fundamentally the wrong way to teach.
(IMHO)

<SMALL>I'm against it. What is it?- Archie Bunker</SMALL>

I admit I have doubts about Bill inventions, but not having seen or tried out either of them, I'm not in a position to pass judgement.

Maybe Bill is on to something, maybe not. For all we know he might be a mechanical genius whose ideas will totally revolutionize our instrument and prove to be the most significant improvement since the inception of pedals. He might also be a total kook whose ideas are utterly worthless. The bottom line is that we don't know.

I suggest that 1- Bill you build a prototype and bring it to the convention and rent a booth so we can all try out your inventions and see for ourselves how they work and whether or not they improve the instrument. and 2- the rest of us reserve judgement on them until we've had some hands (and feet) on experience with them.

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My gear: A piece of wood with some wires attached

Chris S.,

Please do me a favor, and go back to where you quoted me ever saying that the HUF was designed for beginners. Nothing could be further from the truth. Someone else mentioned that in one or two of their replies. I became very annoyed with the comment, but I refused to respond because I'd hoped that others would quickly read through that bit of nonsense. Instead you seem to have a penchant to proliferate someone elses view, which leaves me no other choice, other than set the record straight. The truth of the matter is that beginners never once entered my mind while developing the HUF. It is designed for players who wish to advance their technique by knowing precisely where to place the bar at all times. Beginners may progress to this advanced state of the art fretboard when they have paid their dues, (as I have done). I'll repeat my words one more time, never did I say that the HUF was designed for beginners.

Bill H.

<SMALL>It is designed for players who wish to advance their technique by knowing precisely where to place the bar at all times.</SMALL>

Sorry to chime in again ...but I'll help clear up who brought up the word 'beginners'. My advice to you, take it or leave it, is to focus your design on aiding beginners...intermediate-pro players shouldn't need a fretboard to know precisely where to put their bar.

Again, this is just MY advice based on MY experience...my thoughts here are not aimed at insulting anyone...you should stop taking them that way.

Regardless, I love the spirit of invention...my brother is always tinkering to make things better or creating completely new designs for things. My Dad spent hours customizing his Pedal Steels. I admire what you're doing...I just happen to think some of your energy is being misplaced.

Agree to disagree and all that...best of luck to you.

Found this on the melobar-page, isn't it about the same?
JJ
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Johan Jansen on 09 November 2002 at 10:46 AM.]</p></FONT>

Johan J.,

No Johan, it does not resemble the (HUF). The fretboard is no longer needed in the (HUF) application. I really need a clear close-up photo to make a determination that would reveal any similarities. Thank you for noticing the unusual photo, and for sending it with your reply.

Bill H. <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 09 November 2002 at 12:07 PM.]</p></FONT>

Wow........It takes all kinds!

I love that pull-out ashtray on the changer end !!

..sorry, Folks...I was adding this link to the "Ouch" 3rd string topic, and accidently hit the "post new topic" button instead of the "add a reply" button...

<SMALL>Let's not put another barrier between the steel player and the audience.</SMALL>

Good point, I think, and--no offense or disparagement given--at the same time, the thought occurred to me about how a mirror in front of the fretboard might serve the purpose (such as on fine pianos). But then, my next thought was to bet you had tried it as a preliminary testbed!<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by James Cann on 23 January 2006 at 08:31 AM.]</p></FONT>

I think the curtain print pattern is beautiful. <font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Ray Minich on 23 January 2006 at 11:11 AM.]</p></FONT>

I'd like one with chord names, please.

Thomas Edison was once heard to say, "I know 999 things that won't work, but one thing that will." This befitting quote has found a good home in this thread.

Bill

Bill, I don't think I have ever seen a Post that yanked as many chains at one time as this one. You should have had a fish hook on the end of this Thread. Gave me a chuckle!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Sho-Bud S-12 and a brand new N112

Nice to see you, Bill.

Hi, I'm still a brand new member here, but I have spent many a year playing many different instruments.

I started on violin and piano, later moving to woodwinds, primarily saxophone, which I studied at college. For the last three years have been playing dobro, mostly in bluegrass situations, and backing your standard sensitive singer/songwriter type. I also play guitar, mandolin, and bass. Now, I am adding the pedal steel to my long list of stuff that I will never be able to practise enough.

I'm sure there are some, even plenty of people that can play pedal steel well without sight. That is amazing, but there are a great number of different ways in which people learn. I think that this should be factored into this sort of situation.

For those that don't learn at all visually, the answer seems fairly simple...don't attach a visual learning aid such as an upright fretboard to your instrument.

I think it is good that someone feels that he need not be bound by history to learn only in a way that others before have done. His own needs spawned his creativity, and he has shared. I appreciate that. And as to other members contention about other points he has made, well, I imagine all of us can become rather defensive when our imagination, creativity, and skills are challenged. Please give a guy a break. I hope you'll do the same for me too. He's proud of what he has made. He didn't post his picture to say that anyone else is doing anything wrong; but we have tried to tell him that it is wrong because it is not the right thing for us. Different strokes, no?

I have held an odd assortment of day jobs in my life. I have often wound up teaching things to people, and from my experience I can tell you that there are people who can only learn to dance by having moves explained to them aurally. There are people who can only learn to throw punches properly if you actually put your hands on them and mold them like clay. There are also some who can learn everything you do just by watching, but will stand by dumbfounded if you describe it to them.

There are also a lot of people who are better than me at any of the things that I do, but have greater difficulty teaching those things because they don't know why they are able to do the things they do.

The use of visual references I, personally, find more useful on steel guitar than on any other instrument I have spent any time on. I think the reason is largely because of the lack of direct contact with the strings. Sure, the trailing fingers and blocking palm are in contact at most times, but it is the bar and finger picks that come into contact with the actual ringing strings.

On the piano, guitar etc, there are set points to place your fingers at which you don't actually need to be 100% accurate to be in tune or at least relatively close.

On fretted instruments, you can feel the relationships between the frets as your fingers move up and down the board.

With keyboards you can feel the relationships between the offset white and black keys. You can feel the edge of the next key over from one you have depressed, all of the keys are the same size, and lay in the same order, etc.

On any string instrument that has you push the string all of the way down to a fingerboard, you can feel the string you are playing. Behind a steel bar, you can't tell if you've picked the wrong string from how it feels, you need to hear or see...or both.

I'm not saying any one instrument is harder than another, as they all have their ups and downs (ever try playing something fast on the trombone? or attempt a glissando on the mandolin?). I am however saying that from my experience it is harder to make large, fast jumps on steel with accurate intonation, without the use of visual markers.

I can't imagine doing any gig in which I could always hear myself clearly. Perhaps it is because I have always played acoustic instruments, often with electric instruments in the band. There are times, mostly mercifully brief, when one has to use any weapon in one's arsenal to get through a situation when you are unfortunately deaf to your own playing.

I think it might be an interesting experiment to cover one's fretboard, and try to play a set of relatively complicated changes without any visual markers whatsoever. I think one might really find out how much one does play with the aid of sight.

Alright, enough from me. Thanks for the space to write.

Rob.

Rob,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I am no longer pursuing my ambitions relating to the development of new ideas. Poor health has vastly decreased my energy. I want to wish you the best of luck in your steel guitar practice sessions.

Bill

Terribly sorry to hear of your health troubles.

I just noticed that this thread started in 2002!

I have now realised that I was getting into material that was largely in response to posts from that time.

I apologise. I will try to keep it all a little more current from now on.

My best regards and good luck with your health of course.

Rob Fenton.

...well, Hello, Bill Hankey...long time, no see (or read)...I'm sorry to hear that your health is still not good...I hope it's good enough that you can join in on occasion...we miss you.