The Steel Guitar Forum

Carl Dixon wrote:

<SMALL>Taking a customer's money and buying parts to use in another's guitar is a Ponzi scheme and it is immoral; and should be illegal.</SMALL>

I agree with you 100%, Carl. It really ticks me off.

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Bob Wood,....was that photo company RGB?<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by HowardR on 06 March 2004 at 11:48 AM.]</p></FONT>

This is a semi-flammable question, but one man's accellerant is another man's anathema...

It doesn't really pertain to me, because as I say. " If it ain't ***~***, it aint ****."

Is this the company that had a split, and/or legal difference with a gentleman of the same name?

Are there terms spelled out in the initial contract? Is there one?

Wouldn't a reasonable person expect some sort of assurance in case of fire, theft, death of the owners or some other contingency?

Some companies are in the category where there is no need for anything but a verbal understanding. When it gets to the point where there needs to be more, it has to be understandable and enforceable. I'd say when the sum involved exceeds a couple grand and the time frame exceeds a year.



EJL

Howard,

I'm not too sure. That name sounds very familiar, but back then, quite a few labs were cropping up, offering film and developing of the 5247 Eastman film. Some of them were honest, and did their best to keep up with the demand of the film. They all offered negatives and slides. I'm sure you remember the product. I've been out of that industry for a long time now, and I don't even know if Eastman 5247 (formerly 5254) film is still around. It was a good film. The owner of the company that I worked for had all his film developed by a Hippy Commune in Mountain View, Calif. Remember those days? I bet a lot of people hadn't thought of "Hippy Commune" in a long time, and a few people probably don't even know what one is!

Bob

Yep, I remember those days and the film.

When I spoke to Paul Franklin Sr. few years back about ordering a Franklin guitar he said there is a year wait and deposit of $500 ,if I wanted to pay in payments or have the rest of the money ready when the guitar is ready was up to me.If I had have decided that I don`t wont the guitar after it was done ,the complete deposit would be given back to me without a question.That was by far the best and the fairest deal ever .I tried to contact Emmons Co. couple times for some parts and I never heard nothing from nobody there.I was very disaponted since I love Emmons guitars (even tho I played some that sounded like s@#t)and they are supposed to be one of the bigest manufactures of the steel guitars.They sure don`t act like one.

Damir, that's odd...I got my parts and materials from Emmons with no problems at all.

In fact, the transaction including the shipping was exactly as fast and efficient as the stuff I ordered from the forum.

However, when I order from a certain Steel Guitar shop in Nashville, there are always problems, like mistakes, or not stocking items without telling me, and then ignoring my emails. They have done that BS twice now.
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Peter on 07 March 2004 at 12:35 PM.]</p></FONT>

Damir,

Paul Sr. gave me the same estimate. That it would be a year for my guitar. Within three months, he had it done! He and his wife are the nicest people you'll ever meet anywhere. They go out of their way to please you, and make you happy. I was playing in a little night club in Livermore, California for about four years, and I would just leave my Franklin in the club. Now mind you, Livermore is a little, dusty cowboy town! Lots of dust, and they would leave the doors open to the bar all the time during the day. My Franklin had dust all underneath the guitar, and I knew it needed to be cleaned real good by someone who knew more about it than I did. So, I sent it back to Paul Sr. It took him about two weeks, and when I got it back..., it looked like a brand new guitar! And, it played even better than when it was new! You just can't beat the attention that he gives his guitars. I swear, it looked like he replaced just about every piece on it! Real sweet sounding too. In fact, if I could afford ten or twenty guitars like some of the "Monster" players, every one of them would be a "Franklin"! Franklin gets my business!.......Bob

Let the fireballs start flinging. But if I wanted a new Emmons and knew there was a year wait then that is what I would do. Not sell my guitar until I had my new Emmons in hand. Definitely not pay 100o/o up front.TRUE, there is some business end items that need to be corrected. But we have 1 of 2 choices. We can either brow-beat Emmons Guitar out of business, which would be a very sad state of affairs, OR we can now follow the rules that EMMONS has forced upon us. NOW we All know the rules on buying a NEW EMMONS. I wouldn't want to wake up and hear that Emmons has folded, NOR any other steel co. All IMHO. Now set'er down and let the loose end drag.

When is the bashing of the worlds greatest steel guitar going to end? Never! I will answer one question, no pro player or anyone ever received a guitar sooner than anyone else. This is in my 12 year experience. I have read this thread a couple of times and have tried to stay out of it but it is getting out of hand. I will say again, until you've been in the shoes you have no idea of what you are talking about. So to those who seem to know so much about building guitars, start your own business and see how long before everyone is throwing stones. A couple of years ago I left this forum all together because of threads like this and it looks as though I will leave again. It is completely unfair for people to pass such judgement when they have no idea of how difficult the steel bsuiness is. Good luck to you all especially Ron Lashley Jr. who is trying to feed a family and keep his dad's business a float. Please, no need in responding to my post because I will not be reading.

I'm all done with my steel guitar buying unless one of my guitars gets stolen or damaged, so I made myself a rule!! There's no more ordering steel guitars!! If I can come close to what I want on the floor somewhere, I'll take it!! I never thought I'd like a white guitar but it sure grows on ya, right Bobbe?? Both my steels were purchased from a dealer and they're the best!! If you can compromise on the color, mechanically they can be set up any way you want! Loren.

Carl, good customer service is one reason why Carter sells so many guitars. I fully agree with your post.

It's too bad that Jack is choosing to leave the forum again. He used to be a great contributor. BUT, facts are facts. We have heard too many times of this crap with Emmons. I would never buy a NEW Emmons, just based on this problem alone. If I want an Emmons (I do think they are great guitars), I will buy a used one.

Edited to say: Although I had no responses to emails to Carter, I now realize it was due to my not putting the word CARTER in the email subject. Evidently they sent out a letter that I never got explaining the junk mail problem they are having. I have no reason to not believe them as I am also having trouble recieving other very important tax documents. I moved twice this year and am having trouble the mail forwarding system. Carter, in my mind, still has great service.

If my comments stirred up the rest of the "blast Carter" post, I sincerely apologize to everyone. I tried to make a point that even the best have problems. By the way, My Carter came on time as promised.

And a note to the manufacturers: PLEASE LIST REPLACEMENT PARTS AND PRICES ON YOUR WEBSITE. I only know of one manufacturer that does (Emmons, by the way). This would cut down on the amount of emails they would get bogged down with and could spend more time building guitars and cut down the wait times a little for new guitars. Just a thought.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Richard Sinkler on 10 March 2004 at 01:39 PM.]</p></FONT>

Richard, for reasons of SPAM (or whatever reasons), email is about the worst way to contact any steel guitar manufacturer. With Carter, they warn to be sure to put CARTER (all caps) in the email subject line to avoid the spam filter...

I had a call answered at the Carter offices about a technical question on a Sunday afternoon- it was a wild shot on my part, I planned to leave a message, but there was John Fabian, preparing guitars for a show. John told me they aren't there every weekend, but sometimes- so probably the phone is the way to go, certainly so during biz hours. Email is great, but only when it works! I've found this true with both businesses and individuals- not everyone is as computer-enabled as we Forumites.

FWIW I contacted Emmons Gtr. Co. via email about instructional material and heard back within a day or so.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by John McGann on 07 March 2004 at 04:19 PM.]</p></FONT>

I have just a couple of comments, based on my limited experience in business.

First, the Ponzi Scheme accusation. A Ponzi Scheme, where the money collected from the last investors goes to pay the first investors, is set up that way from the git-go by the design of the schemer. That is NOT what the Emmons company, or any other steel manufacturer that I know of created.

No manufacturing business builds a guitar, or widgets, or whatever, one at a time based on the money received by one customer. John Doe's money, received by the company, goes into the general fund, as does Joe Blow's money, and the rest of the customers' orders. This money is used to buy parts for many guitars, keep the factory open, utilities turned on, meager staff paid, interest on business debt, etc. No one puts John's money or Joe's money into a little jar with the label "use only for John's guitar."

What happens when a company changes hands, like the Emmons co. a couple years ago, and suppliers/vendors change means that there are delays in getting parts for dozens, if not hundreds, of guitars. Sometimes weeks are spent finding a new vendor for certain parts, then weeks waiting for the parts to arrive, then if the parts that are finally delivered are incorrect, the process starts all over again. This can result in interminable delays.

If the company is financially underfunded, like many steel guitar companies can be and have been, this only adds to the problem. Vendors wait until past bills have been paid before sending new merchandise. These bills generally get paid from orders coming in.

This is not due to larceny on anyone's part, just plans that have gone awry.

Unfortunately, this does nothing to help the poor customer who only wants a good guitar delivered in a timely fashion. Well, he calls up the factory, and rather than say "we hope the parts will come in next week," the answer is "your guitar will go out in a couple of weeks... (we hope!)" But really, the guitar builder's butt is in a crack since he's dependent on his parts suppliers.

This may or may not be what has happened to Emmons Co., or it may be only part of the delay in delivery. But it's a common one among small manufacturers who think beyond the "one guitar at a time" model.

I had a long talk with Ronnie and Rebecca a couple of years ago about this topic, and he's well aware of his dad's legacy and how he should keep it going. When the previous owners turned over the company, a great number of new vendors had to be found, and a new company basically started from scratch. This would be an overwhelming task in an of itself, not to mention dealing with irate customers. But I believe Ronnie and Rebecca will hang in there.

I might be talking out of school, but these things happen in business. They just do.

If you absolutely, positively, must have a new Emmons, buy it from a dealer who has one in stock, find a used one, or understand there will be a wait. It seems like those are the choices. Chewing the butts of the builders most likely won't get your guitar any quicker.



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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

<SMALL>"It's too bad that Jack is choosing to leave the forum again. He used to be a great contributor"</SMALL>

I agree. I have a tremendous love and admiration for Jack Strayhorne and I have made that point on this forum on several ocassions.

Also, I have gone on record stating that (outside the Anapeg) the Emmons' PSG is the finest PSG ever built. I do not budge from that opinion.

However, and I agree, "facts are facts".

Mike Richardson created this thread and posted the following:

<SMALL>"I went to North Carolina March 10,2003 and ordered my SD-10 Lagrande ll, and I am still waiting.I guess I should not have paid for it in full.I keep getting the same thing when I call,"It will be here next week."I wonder if next week will ever get here?"</SMALL>

Now the facts are, whether any of the posters on this forum have ever built a steel guitar or not is not the point. The point is that Mr Richardson did NOT give his money to the Emmons' company to subsidize Ron's business or his personal obligations.

He gave that money to pay for an Emmons' Pedal Steel guitar. To date he has not received it. Those are the facts of the matter. It is fine to defend a person or a business against unwarranted attacks.

But is the above unwarranted and are they attacks? Or are they stating truth? I too paid hard earned money IN advance for my guitar and ONLY after threatening to sue did I get my guitar.

Now get this, during the year I waited to get it, Emmons Guitar company brought 11 brand new PSG's to the ISGC in Stlouis. But NOT one was for me and MOST were not sold yet. Yet they sold most of them on the floor.

Now my question is, where did the Emmons' company get the money and the parts to build and bring all those guitars to ISGC? I do not think it takes a Rocket scientist; or a person who works for a PSG manufacturer, to know where they got the money. SOME of it came from me! But did it go for MY guitar?

I believe we all know the answer. So in that case a number of people got their guitars BEFORE I got mine. EVEN though I had paid in full for mine 8 mos prior!!

If this is an attack, so be it. But it was not right to do business with me that way; it was unethical and immoral and SHOULD be against the law. As a matter of fact it WAS against Federal law.

And when I realized I was sent a flyer in the mail, is when I checked and sure enough there IS a federal law that states you must deliver the merchandise within 90 days IF you have advertised it. Congress enacted this law to put a stop to just this type of chacanary.

Such was the case. It was ONLY then after I made it known that I was going to use that Post Office federal law to bring law suit that I suddenly got my guitar.

Now again, I love and admire Jack. I love the Emmons' Guitar. To me it has the best sound of any guitar I have ever heard. But those are the facts. And NO company is going to stay in business if this type of practice does not come to a screeching halt.

Especially in this day of the internet; where unsuspecting buyers can receive instant reviews and critiques.

It goes like this folks. If you are going to be in business, then ya gotta be a business man. If it means you work 20 hour days, 7 days a week, ya do it. If it means you eat beans and cornbread, Ya do it. If it means ya gotta bite the bullet, ya do it. Etc, etc, etc.

Because if'n ya don't, ya better close the doors and get a job at Mcdonalds to support your family cuz, if'n ya don't your customers WILL close your doors for ya, as they go to manufacturers that WILL deliver tha bread,

Ron Jr is a very nice person. Rebecca is one of the sweetest persons around. But If I was Ron Jr and got wind of this thread, I would call Mr Richardson IN the morning and tell him,

"I will make NO excuses. We goofed. I will cut you a refund check in full NOW if you want it. Or if you still want the guitar, YOURS will be the first one out the door. No IFs, no ANDS and no BUTs.

Either way you have been done wrong and I would not blame you if you never bought another product from us."

So help me Jesus, I would do it. Because this is the right thing to do.

That is my story and I am sticking to it,

Jesus WILL right all wrongs,

carl

I guess it time for my two cents. I have had nothing but positive things from the Emmons Company.Whether it was parts or a question ,they have always been right up front and timely with their response.
Now I will add this little note...Many members of the Forum rave about the service and sales at the number one dealer , repair ,advice ,facility in Nashvile.
I drove eight hundred miles one way to have my LeGrande lll set up by the professionals at this facility.
It took longer than promised and cost a little more that quoted . But the worst part was when I got home and set it up it was far from the set up I had ordered. Also all the BS about not leaving the shop until everything was cleaned, lubed , etc , etc
was exactly that BS....If any one of their Pro's played this guitar he must have been recovering from a giant hang over or something.
I have only been picking for fifty seven years and this Emmons in the greatest guitar I have ever owned.I ordered a vertical knee and installed it myself. It was very easy to do...There is a whole world of help and advice out there , but not all of it rings true..
God bless Ron And Rebecca for hanging in there.....Bud

I guess it time for my two cents. I have had nothing but positive things from the Emmons Company.Whether it was parts or a question ,they have always been right up front and timely with their response.
Now I will add this little note...Many members of the Forum rave about the service and sales at the number one dealer , repair ,advice ,facility in Nashvile.
I drove eight hundred miles one way to have my LeGrande lll set up by the professionals at this facility.
It took longer than promised and cost a little more that quoted . But the worst part was when I got home and set it up it was far from the set up I had ordered. Also all the BS about not leaving the shop until everything was cleaned, lubed , etc , etc
was exactly that BS....If any one of their Pro's played this guitar he must have been recovering from a giant hang over or something.
I have only been picking for fifty seven years and this Emmons in the greatest guitar I have ever owned.I ordered a vertical knee and installed it myself. It was very easy to do...There is a whole world of help and advice out there , but not all of it rings true..
God bless Ron And Rebecca for hanging in there.....Bud

Willis,

I'm with you.

Best regards,
Jay Thompson

O.K. Guys, here is my two cents worth.
I feel that Ron and Rebecca should be commended for trying to re-structure the company and get going again. I am sure that there would be a lot of easier occupations for them.
Instead of brow-beating them to death, why don't we pray for them.It seems to me that they are taking a lot of flack for past problems within the company that occurred long before their time.I don't feel that a kind word, a little understanding, and most of all, a prayer would be lost here. Thanks
Johnny

Jay, Willis- you're not the only ones who feel that way.

I had a horrible experience with Carter guitars- the same people jumping on the "bash Emmons" parade tried to make me feel like I was completly out of line when I objected to Carter's customer service on this forum.
By the way, besides other tremendous customer service gaffs, my Carter guitar came late.


Some folks have waited a long time for their Emmons -no one waits long for a Carter-or would.
Some people rave about Carter Guitars- but then there's folks that think the Carter Guitar sounds terrible.
EVERYONE loves Emmons guitars.

Ron and Rebecca need all our good will- they deserve a chance to succeed- and all those here throwing stones are not working in that spirit- even if their gripes are justified.

I agree with what Jack Strayhorn said, Emmons is and always will be the world's greatest Steel Guitar. Even though I've ordered a new ZumSteel I still think NO GUITAR can top a good Emmons. I've got 4 of them.
Jack Ole Buddy, thanks again for building me, my LeGrande III before you left the Company. Nick

I have had nothing but good experience with the Emmons Company and am happy to be a dealer for them. I am also happy playing the Emmons guitar and can't see myself ever switching. I do know delays happen but I think the product is worth the wait. I would certainly advise against asking them to rush on a guitar that is close to delivery. That is the time to give them all the time they need to tweak it and make sure it is just right.
Jerry

I am an Emmons player and proud of it. I have never had a problem with an Emmons or the people that run the company. Whatever I've asked of them has been handled in a very courteous and timely manner.
If you want a new Emmons NOW. I suggest you contact an Emmons dealer and chances are they would have one in stock. I ordered a new Emmons Loafer directly from the factory but when I wanted a new D-10 right NOW, I looked around and bought one from Steel Guitars of Mississippi for no more that I would have had to pay right from Emmons. Instead of bashing Emmons why don't some of you cry babies give the dealers a try.
Uff-Da!

I made a statement about the delivery time of the Carter Guitar I ordered. Today I recieved a call from John Fabian asking me to retract that statment. I refused.
Here's exactly the sequence:
I ordered and paid for a guitar from Carter on 10/28/2003.
The guitar- remember this was a standard S10, 3/5 which they promise on their site to ship in 30 days- was shipped on 11/30/2003. This is 2 days late. Carter can moan about the fact that Thanksgiving was involved- but the 30 guarantee makes no mention of holidays.

Now, I am not making a fuss over 2 days- Ann had called to tell me that they would be shipping it two weeks late.
I put up a fuss and they told me they'd honor the 30 day pladge. In fact, they even put in their $50 bundle of accessories ( 3 picks and a container of oil) to make up for the fact they shipped late.
But when Carter makes a statement that they've NEVER shipped a guitar late, they are leaving themselves open to this kind of critisism.
When a company ( Carter) does not give a HOOT if they leave a trail of dissatisfied customers, well, this is what you get.