The Steel Guitar Forum

Dale Rottacker wrote:I found what b0b said about substitution chords interesting as my mind doesn’t think in those terms... perhaps it should, and perhaps I should learn more about it... I know that I use substitution chords, I just don’t think about them that way... Now where’s that Aspirin

I didn't say anything about substitution chords. I usually try to stick to the chart. I might add a diminished or augmented now and then as a passing chord, but that's about it.

Knowing how the same chord can have a different name is a really valuable skill. For example, a G major chord actually is an Em7. It's not a substitution, it's a partial. All of the notes in the G chord are in Em7. If the chart says Em7 and you play a G, you are right on.

I studied music theory in high school and college.

Mostly it was from the old Paul Hindemith book Traditional Harmony. That deals more with classical composition.

I learned the basics of intervals, chord structure, and scales. It was invaluable in getting me started and learning to speak a common musical language. It didn't do me much good when it came to playing rock and roll. As a matter of fact R&R basically broke most of the rules laid down in that book.

It wasn't until I learned how to speak in the Nashville number system that I was able to apply some of that knowledge to popular vs classical music.

I took a few private lessons with Jeff Newman. I kept wanting to know how theory applied to the PSG and he kept telling me to forget theory and concentrate on learning the positions and patterns on the PSG.

IMHO Great advice for a beginner bad advice if you really want to learn the instrument.

So I still think in patterns and pockets when I play even though I'm very conscious of the scale degree.

No matter what chord I'm playing in a particular key I know where the other chords of the key are by patterns and not theory.

NOW connecting those patterns and positions by using pedals, levers and bar movements is where theory is invaluable and the real magic happens.

Tony Prior wrote:Thats probably real common Don, many of us are probably in that same category . We live in a small "theory" world and have either no reason or no desire to expand, we do other things which we enjoy more.

Tony, an overwhelming number of members here have forgotten more about the steel than I will ever know. And a majority of them say theory is a very good, useful thing to know. So from their assertions comes my desire to learn theory.

However, I can't - at this point - quite understand how this will help me improve. I don't dispute it, I just don't sense the gaps in my progress that it would help. NOT saying I don't have gaps, I sure do.

I seem to be able to soak up stuff by ear, and make progress by doing the same thing at different places on the instrument. So I'd say I DO have the desire to expand and learn theory, but danged if I can figure just how to apply it once the light finally (hopefully) comes on in my brain.

Actually Don, and I'm not giving you any guarantee, wish I could ! ...

By knowing a bit and having it in your pocket,then applying it to the fret board, all of a sudden as you are playing , you feel a 9th or 7th is coming up , or another sub chord will fit, you grab it in a different location on the fret board , slide up or down to that location and execute because you know exactly where it is on the fret board, then your band mates look over at you and say " SWEET " .....

have we not heard (read) a few people say , and sometimes right here on the forum... "ok I know all these chords but where do I use em" ?

b0b wrote:

Dale Rottacker wrote:I found what b0b said about substitution chords interesting as my mind doesn’t think in those terms... perhaps it should, and perhaps I should learn more about it... I know that I use substitution chords, I just don’t think about them that way... Now where’s that Aspirin

I didn't say anything about substitution chords. I usually try to stick to the chart. I might add a diminished or augmented now and then as a passing chord, but that's about it.

Knowing how the same chord can have a different name is a really valuable skill. For example, a G major chord actually is an Em7. It's not a substitution, it's a partial. All of the notes in the G chord are in Em7. If the chart says Em7 and you play a G, you are right on.

Sorry b0b... my interpretation!

Tony Prior wrote:

Jamie Mitchell wrote:what's funny is that even when people get the D#/G# aspect of it right, they miss the E# lever!

Ha! well I solved that by adding the F lever...

that's what I'm talking about!!!

Unless I've missed it, no-one has mentioned learning styles, at least not directly. These apply to all subjects, not just music theory.

Some folk learn best from a teacher, some from reading, some by trial and error; and with a teacher they may prefer to be told things or to just look and copy.

To make a fist of playing music you need to have some sense of what notes and chords belong together and what direction they can send you in. Those who disregard music theory (or even despise it) have found other non-academic ways to order their thinking. If you're the kind of person who has tried reading the topic and found that you glaze over - try a different method. You don't need a thread chart to sort a box of nuts and bolts, but it can help you to know what you're looking at.

b0b wrote: Knowing how the same chord can have a different name is a really valuable skill. For example, a G major chord actually is an Em7. It's not a substitution, it's a partial. All of the notes in the G chord are in Em7. If the chart says Em7 and you play a G, you are right on.

Not to quibble but, to be clear, an Em7 woud be the same notes as a G6 chord (because it would include the E), which is not the same as a "G chord", although it will work in many settings (especially if you have a bassist playing an E in the root so it sounds more like Em7 than G6).

But I think what b0b is saying is that if the chart calls for Em7 and you play a G major triad (GBD), those three notes are found within Em7 so you'll be fine. But the opposite may or may not work as well, i.e. if the chart calls for a G major chord and you play Em7, you'll be adding an E note which may or may not taste good in that setting.

Hence I don't really think of them as the same chord but they are often substitutable, IMO.

In the "finding what note is where" department as a guitar teacher I have my students chant this mantra: B&C E&F, B&C E&F.... I explain that these two pairs of notes are the only natural notes that are one fret apart. I then tell them to name all the notes on each string up to the 12th fret. This works well when only the modifier "sharp" is introduced. This leads to teaching the C major scale where the half steps are E&F and B&C. Of course they already know the positions for this scale so the diatonic pattern begins to reveal itself for any key. I find it helps to demystify the core of musical understanding. It is a start.

At least on a guitar you can see the intervals. I used to teach beginner horn players from notation, which only serves to disguise the different-sized steps; and it doesn't help to explain that "scale" is from the Latin for ladder (which they then imagine to have equally-spaced rungs).

On the pedal steel, of course, we have the two-dimensional version to keep us busy - scales harmonised in 3rds and 6ths with the corresponding pattern of major and minor intervals.

I definitely know every note I'm playing, and its implications to the chord and the key center...

In my line of work, jazz guitar and now jazz steel, it's extremely useful. Also, being able to read unfamiliar tunes on the bandstand is an almost daily requirement, on the guitar. My hope is that someday I will be as fluent a steel player as I am a guitarist, but that's a loooonnnnggggg way off, still

The knowledge sure has helped make it go quicker, though.

http://www.melbay.com/Products/98207/mu ... world.aspx

I also wrote a supplement for steel players, explaining how the concepts in the book relate to what the pedals do. I will send the file of the supplement to the book to anybody who wants it.

Somebody mentioned substitute chords and a very practical use of theory for me was for substitute dominant 7 chords on the C6 neck. I’m in the key of F, on the 5th fret, and I have to do a 6 - 2 – 5 turnaround using dom 7th chords. F – D7 – G7 – C7 back to F.

I have to know the notes in the chord and their position (1,3,5,b7). What makes a dominant chord is the tritone ( #4 or b5) interval of the 3rd and b7 notes in the chord. So C7 has E (3rd) and Bb (b7) to go with the root and 5th, C and G. Substitute dominants share the same tritone notes in the 3rd and b7 position, but their position in the chord is reversed. Instead of the E being the 3rd, it will be the b7th and the Bb (A#) will be the 3rd. The dom7th chord with those notes is a F#7, which is a tritone away from C7.

Dom7 chords a tritone apart can substitute for each other. Why do I want to know this?

I’m in the key of F on the C6 neck and I have to do a dom7, 6 – 2 – 5 turnaround. F – D7 – G7 – C7. I play F on the 5th fret. The substitute dom7 for D7, a tritone away is G#7 which I can get on the 6th fret with the 5 pedal. G7 is 5 pedal on the 5th fret. As we saw above, the substitute dom7 for C7 is F#7 which I can get on the 4th fret with the 5 pedal back up to the 5h fret,no pedal, for F.

To get my 6 – 2 – 5 all I have to do is push ped 5 and go up 1 fret, back down 1 fret, then down 1 fret. That’s one of the beauties of theory and now that I know the pattern, I don’t have to know what the chords are to get the turnaround. I can concentrate on how I’m going to deliver it rather than find it.

Now, back to doing my taxes.

Chas, that's EXACTLY why I don't understand theory!

Yes, the fact that we can listen to many players on different instruments , and then take what we hear, and assimilate this into our own style, all without theory, is great.

At some point, ideas need to be communicated. You may have the strongest ears, able to hear and play a complex chord for example, and someone asks "what is that chord?" A bit of theory may be needed to communicate it, and you don't know the answer. I've been that guy , and it sucked. I didn't have the common musical language to communicate to others. You get called for a gig or session, and the bandleader says "bring your music stand". Hmm...might need to call someone else ?

Your three chord country band gets a sweet wedding gig, but the gig demands three or four songs out of your genre. Everyone gets a chart, but you don't speak the language.
Might need to call someone else ?

The degree to which you need to use theory can differ, but at minimum, you need to be able to communicate with others in a musical language.

Theory is why I love playing bossa nova.

My mom talked me into taking guitar lessons back in grammar school. The old man I took lessons from made me learn to read music. I am so glad he did.

I was an accounting major in college; yet, most of my friends were music majors. I spent a lot of my free time hanging out with them over in the Fine Arts part of the campus. Two of the guys that were in the band I was playing in at the time were music majors. I got a free education from those folks.

Lee, from South Texas

The more theory I understand the more I can hear. playing by ear is immeasurably improved by an understanding of harmonic function.

If I know where the notes are on the neck I can hear a steel lick and see 4 or 5 places I can play it. If I understand what it is doing in terms of the harmony I can chose the way to play it that best expresses whatever it is I want to express.

The lack of understanding theory is one of the main reasons steel is not used as much as it could be in non country music. I can't tell you how many times I've seen steel players play there way out of bands and studios because they could not adapt or actually comprehend what was needed.

Bob, for me that post is worth reading 2 or 3 times - makes sense!

I agree with Bob H.

To really learn music theory, it's necessary to learn to read its written symbols. Imagine trying to learn arithmetic without knowing how to read numbers.

For some reason, many musicians feel that learning how to read is a bad thing. That it will cause you to forget how to play by ear.

On the contrary, playing by ear and being able to read are complimentary skills. Being able to read helps me okay be ear netter, and being able to play by ear makes me a better reader.

A few years ago I played "Venus" by Frankie Avalon at the Phoenix show. I figured out most of it my ear, but there was one chord that I couldn't identify. I looked at the sheet music, saw what it was, and played it, no problem. It was actually very easy to play.

The problem with notation on the steel is that it notes don't tell you whether to play the notes with the pedals up or down.

I have written a short (4 pages) article that addresses this issue. I will send a free PDF of the file to anybody who requests it. Please send requests via E-mail rather than a PM.

My method for reading music while using the pedals is not quick and easy. It requires some serious effort and study from whoever is using it. But it really does work.

Chas, that's EXACTLY why I don't understand theory!

Don, well, I always like to be helpful ... damn. Mike's point of, "trying to learn arithmetic without knowing the numbers" is a good analogy. It looks difficult at first, but after you learn the "vocabulary" everything in there is connected and it really does make sense.

Mike Perlowin wrote:...To really learn music theory, it's nec4ssary to learn to read its written symbols...

Well, yes and no. If your talking about the formal study of music theory, yes absolutely. But to understand the fundamental concepts of music theory as they apply to mainstream music and musical instruments (perhaps to folks like Don B) I don't think so. Particularly if it dissuades someone from learning those fundamental concepts simply because they believe that reading notation is a prerequisite to understanding them. As many have mentioned, there are plenty of really great musicians who never learned formal music theory, who can't explain what a chord substitution or a tritone is (even if they use them all the time), but they understand how music works, how things fit together.

I took four semesters of music theory in college. Endless amounts of scoring and notating, sight singing, etc. Like most of the stuff we all learned in college, it is mostly useless to me now. It certainly gave me a deeper insight into how everything fits together, but this is not the stuff that makes musical "theory" comprehensible to the average Joe.

For most folks, just a basic understanding of the intervals and relationships in the seven tones in your ordinary brown bag major scale will open way more musical doors than did all the additional stuff from my theory classes (stuff I've had little use for since). I can read and write musical notation but I rarely do, and I don't feel that skill is relevant to my actual understanding of music. While it might make me more technically proficient, it doesn't make me a better musician. And for those of us who choose to dig deeper, the rest is all still there to learn.

It has just occurred to me that when I played bass back in the 70s and 80s the gigs I got were because I was one of the few players in the city (Birmingham) who could read notation at sight. I was only an adequate player, but my theory helped me to spot mistakes in the parts on the fly, so they thought I was Mr Reliable

Knowing basic music theory really helps me when sitting in with a new group of musicians at a gig or studio session.

I have often "faked" my way trough a song having never heard it before, just by listening to the melody and chords.
I could then add my parts and then predict (90% of the time) where the tune was going and come up with some very good parts often amazing myself that I could actually do it.

This works because I know some theory and have been playing music for many years.

Another big advantage is that the steel guitar does not always have to play the downbeat, we can hear the chord, then answer it with a slide or lick and come out sounding like a champ!

You cannot fake that way on a bass or rhythm guitar, because you need to play the chord changes at the right time.

Dom