Your E raise and lower on right side anybody?

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 15 May 2004 11:14 am

If Buddy did that (which I don't think he will), I wonder how many others will switch too. Over the years, I have heard many times that "I set mine up this way 'cuz it's the way Buddy or Jimmy or Paul or (fill in any name here)" have theirs set up. When I switched to the Day setup, I had no idea who Jimmy Day was.

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Carter D10 9p/10k, NV400

Buddy Emmons · Post by **Buddy Emmons** » 15 May 2004 11:44 am

Very funny Jim

I may have to have the octave B's raising together on the third pedal for some things, I'm not sure yet, but pedal A will give me a 4 over 5 chord I've wanted for some time. The left knee cluster on the JCH will allow me to put the E to F# on a knee and leave the third pedal to experiment with. If that doesn't work, I'll go to the Day setup.

Ronald Moore · Post by **Ronald Moore** » 15 May 2004 12:41 pm

Well said, Paul. Thank you Ron

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 16 May 2004 12:52 am

Buddy, how long do you think it would take you to be totally comfortable playing the Day (the right way

) setup? 4, 5 minutes maybe.

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Carter D10 9p/10k, NV400

Buddy Emmons · Post by **Buddy Emmons** » 16 May 2004 5:57 am

Richard,
That would depend upon whether I had to use knee levers with the Day (right way

) setup. When Jimmy and I played either way, the two primary E9th levers we use today were not yet available. We made the middle E to F and E to Eb changes by a forward or reverse slant of one fret. The slants applied to any guitar we played so that left us with nothing to have to concentrate on but the pedals.

If I were to use the Day setup with bar slants, it wouldn't take long to become comfortable. Applying the proper knee levers to the pedals would make it more of a challenge; so I'd say it would probably take a little over seven minutes, maybe eight, tops.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 16 May 2004 7:33 am

Paul,

"De nada",

carl

Buddy Emmons · Post by **Buddy Emmons** » 16 May 2004 8:13 am

I love it.

Ronald Moore · Post by **Ronald Moore** » 16 May 2004 8:48 am

Buddy and Paul: Sorry I wound up in the middle of your conversation. Ron

Bob Snelgrove · Post by **Bob Snelgrove** » 16 May 2004 11:35 am

Paul Franklin,

I would like *your* opinion on why you lower the E's on the right knee? I told Bobby Black that you did and he was curious too.

thx

bob

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 17 May 2004 2:49 am

Interesting discusion I come back too.

I was just playing John Davis' PP set up "Gordon Huntley" or Day to yanks...
And it had the levers reversed too of course.... fried my mind.
My 1st encounter with this situation... yow!

I just went to C6 where I at least could feel at home for most of the time.
Even with no dedicated C6 left knees.

ABC is fine with me. But I was also talking with Joe Wright between sets yesterday,
and he had his very nice cream and brown Sierra Uni, and we were discusing it's setup in the back room.

I can see the utility of having E's raised and lowered on RK's, leaving the left to do lots of things. And no question Joe was all over the map in and out of the box, changing styles and harmonic attitude at whim, this weekend.

He played better than he did in St Loui last fall.
Between him and Doug J., they pretty much cleaned the floor in the jams.
But the British steelies did hold up their end too.

I have been thinking I really would like a S-12, mostly universal, with a few additions.
Joe's set's convinced me this would be very good for me.

So I might think when I get a Uni, to also put the Sho-Bud's Eb-E-F on RK's also to limit confusion.

On the other hand the logic of Paul's spliting it on both knees looks very good also.
I don't quite grasp his mathamatical calculation, since I have only had 4 hours sleep....
But it looks logical.

I wonder how a Uni would work with Paul's E levers split? Carl?[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 17 May 2004 at 03:52 AM.]

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 17 May 2004 7:07 am

David,

The "standard" Uiniversal 12 has the E's split. Usually it is: LKL raises the E's and the lowering is on RKR or RKL. This is what Jeff Newman had for years. He lowered the E's on RKR.

I agree 100% with the smooth transition of having them split. IMO, this transition is extremely difficult (if not impossible) to do if they are on the same knee.

There is another reason for having the E's to Eb lowering on the right knee on a universal. IE, as has been stated, it frees up the left leg more to span all the pedals more easily.

For this and other reasons, I would not go univ for over 30 yrs. I MUST raise (LKL) and lower my E's on LKR do get all the combinations I want. This meant the standard U-12 would not work for me. NOR would putting both on the right knee.

So I had to sacrifice some of that "smoothness" for other more important reasons. I say "some". I have a part of both worlds. Since I also have moved pedal 6 (C6) to RKR, it allows that smooth transition on string 4 at least. Can't do it on string 8 of course. But it is nice to have it at least on string 4.

MY strong suggestion to anyone going Universal is to raise the E's on LKL (LKR if JD setup); Lower them on either right knee lever; and then raise the 9th string to D on the other right knee lever; along with lowering the 2nd string to a C#.

I do not recommend lowering the 2nd string to C# (as Jeff did) with the knee lever that lowers the E's to Eb. IMO, it simply makes that very often used knee lever too dang stiff for most players.

carl [This message was edited by C Dixon on 17 May 2004 at 08:11 AM.]

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 17 May 2004 10:03 am

Bob,
I lower the E's on my RKL and raise the E's on my LKL. I need the E to Eb and E to F levers seperated to utilize the way these levers work together.

Donald,

I was refering to the physical math of combining pedals and knee levers in my earlier comment. So for the sake of clarity we would all have to agree that the LKL can't activate simultaneous with the LKR's release using one leg because of physical limitations.

Considering that as an accepted fact, on the basic 3 pedal 4 knee lever configuration, When these levers are on one knee and are used in combination with -only- the knee levers on the other knee. There is a total of 4 physical moves possible within the knee levers only options. They can also be used individually with various combinations of the 3 floor pedals.

When they are split to seperate legs, there are only 3 physical knee lever -only- combinations. Exactly like the one leg choice they can be used individually with the same various combinations of the 3 floor pedals.

Up to this point having them split to two legs loses one physical option.

Having them split allows for a full tone raise or lower between the Eb and F note.
On one leg its not possible to active one while the other is being released which is what it takes to create a smooth whole tone bend between the Eb and F notes.

The options the smooth whole tone bend allows can also be used combined with the 3 floor pedals almost as if it were a seperate change altogether. For my musical needs the smooth whole tone bend gives me more mathematical options with my floor pedals.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 17 May 2004 11:56 am

To carry this even further, consider the following:

<pre>

LKL LKR RKL RKR

D
E
C B C#
A Ab Bb
G
E
C C#
A
F
C </pre>

This is Buddy's knee lever setup on the C neck of his D-10.

Study for the moment the combinations:

1. Any knee lever alone.

2. RKL and LKR

3. RKL and LKL

4. RKR and LKR

5. RKR and LKL

Or five possible combinations. Now consider doing it any other way, where raises and lowers are on separate knees. How many do you lose?

On my U-12, I lose 3 (possibly 4) combinations if I split the E's on separate knees using the above scenario. Again, I want to stress, that a smooth transition of lowering to raising of the E's (or vice versa) is desirable. However, I am not prepared to give up 3 combinations to get it.

carl

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 17 May 2004 5:26 pm

Carl,

I have considered your question. Musically its apples and oranges. My conclusion is What I lose in one direction, I gain from another.

The whole tone movement combined with the 3 floor pedals gives me at the very least, three additional movements that are not there if my E raises and lowers were placed on one leg.

Paul[This message was edited by Franklin on 17 May 2004 at 06:27 PM.][This message was edited by Franklin on 17 May 2004 at 08:12 PM.]

Buddy Emmons · Post by **Buddy Emmons** » 18 May 2004 1:38 am

The term apples and oranges is all you have here, Paul. If a guitar is capable of adjusting the knee levers closer to the knee, the smooth Eb to F sound can be gotten with the same leg. The real advantage in separating the E raise and lower is to use one of them with other knee levers, not the two with pedals.[This message was edited by Buddy Emmons on 18 May 2004 at 03:24 AM.]

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 18 May 2004 2:04 am

what are you doin' up at this time of the night Buddy ?
Thanx for a great thread !

Buddy Emmons · Post by **Buddy Emmons** » 18 May 2004 2:19 am

Hi CrowBear. I'm just sittin' around waiting to wake up.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 18 May 2004 3:59 am

Well at the moment I have this setup
http://worldserver4.oleane.com/canardplus/Musique/Testcopedent.html

The E9 RKL works with p1 and LKV in cool ways.
And the relative minors on top have some cool voicings I like.
The A is there till I drill a finger slot to lower string 3 enough to go to G.
Not perfect, but better and less dangerous than leaving the G# right there.
A minor sus4 actually works for my ears.

But I am thinking to make it gradually more like a Uni, so when I get a Uni it will be less deranging to switch off.

Or maybe the s-12 Uni will move in this direction a bit more.

The G's on E9 are a must for me, but haven't finally decided where I want them.
A pedal might not be fast enough.
Right now I have some interactions I really like and seem to be getting where I want fast enough.

I am, at the moment, quite happy with the C6 movement and power.

After playing the Carter Doug J. was playing in Newbury this weekend I may go try the high D some more. Just need to rerod the p8 s1 pull.
[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 18 May 2004 at 05:08 AM.]

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 18 May 2004 4:27 am

Nothin' like a lively debate...

Happy Tuesday..

t[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 18 May 2004 at 04:05 PM.]

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 18 May 2004 4:34 am

Buddy,

I see your point that moving swiftly between two well adjusted levers on one leg accomplishes the whole tone sound. And I already conceded that one leg has 4 KL possibilities and two legs has 3. Where we differ on what is an advantage, is on the issue of phrasing the whole tone bend. I want the control of slowly bending that whole tone at the laziest tempos without any hesitance of pitch. I would surely hear a pause in pitch if they were used slowly on one leg. Moving swiftly takes away all my slower rhythmic options. Bending slowly along with the pedals is also an advantage. Where to put these changes is a trade off for which options a player desires most.

When it comes to intervallic, rhythmic and harmonic mathematical options, debating who has the most efficient copedant is really silly. Everyone knows we and hundreds of others are constantly changing setups searching for something we don't have access to.

Until someone finds it all, Its all apples and oranges

...Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 18 May 2004 at 05:40 AM.][This message was edited by Franklin on 18 May 2004 at 06:07 AM.][This message was edited by Franklin on 18 May 2004 at 06:10 AM.]

Jackie Anderson · Post by **Jackie Anderson** » 18 May 2004 5:05 am

Inclusio unius est exclusio alterius, sed de gustibus non est disputandem.

Buddy Emmons · Post by **Buddy Emmons** » 18 May 2004 5:28 am

Paul,
My biggest difficulty with this is trying to understand why you can't do the movement with one knee without creating a glitch. Here's how I look at it:

Experience and logic are two important factors in solving problems. That means you must use the mind's eye as well as what you see in front of you. When I look at my knee levers, I see more space than I need on each side of the knee. With my leg being wider at the thigh than the knee, logic tells me moving my leg forward would gradually lessen the gap between the levers. From there, minimizing the forward movement of the thigh calls for spacing the levers wide enough to allow freedom at the knee but close enough to let the lower thigh handle the seamless transition from Eb to F. Like everything else, it's a variable, but it works.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 18 May 2004 7:42 am

Buddy, are you saying that you move your knee forward when you transition from F to Eb, to avoid the stop at the E note?

The cloth used for pants is another variable that must be considered.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 18 May 2004 7:54 am

Buddy,

The move you described is, for me, not physically comfortable for any amount of time. An instrument should fulfill each players musical and physical capabilities. The horn should fit like a well worn glove.

Your description of the thigh forward move is the same move that applies to using a cluster configuration. Yes, I have tried this and I see how you achieve this to solve this problem, but both of those moves are not physically comfortable to me, and I suspect many others as well. Probably because the human physiology is very simular within us, but extremely unique unto each individual.

I really wanted to switch to the cluster configuration but the thigh forward & backward move hurts my back over extended periods of time. Its not worth it for me.

The minds perception or minds eye is a funny thing, Buddy. Anytime our mind considers something to be awkward or painful it tends to kick in a subconscious limiting factor which could lead me to avoid certain moves more often than I would if they were easy and painless.

Splitting these levers makes this move very easy and painless. Because of the positions I chose, they are also increasing my personal musical options. I am sure if I had them on one knee I would probably mostly avoid the whole tone move on slow ballads. Subtract those uses from the way I utilize it now and I would lose alot.

Paul

Buddy Emmons · Post by **Buddy Emmons** » 18 May 2004 8:41 am

Well said Paul. Over and out.

[This message was edited by Buddy Emmons on 18 May 2004 at 10:27 AM.]