The Steel Guitar Forum

Bruce Bouton wrote:
Restaurants and bars don't have to pay much. Many are exempt from paying anything. Creators should be paid. Donnie if you think we're getting too much oh well.
This is how I've made my living. Seems like many of the posters know all about music royalties and have very strong opinions. Can't argue with that:)
B

Brucie, did you even read where I said:

Donny Hinson wrote:I think that songwriters should be paid when someone records their songs, and sells them for a profit."

and...

Donny Hinson wrote:As I said before, artists and writers should get their due, but in many cases, that doesn't seem to be happening.

Typically, whenever "big business" gets involved (and I don't care what kind of big business we're talking about), the big business grows and grows, and the little guy winds up getting screwed. That's what capitalism in this country has come to mean.

"Restaurants and bars don't have to pay much."

Then why are they complaining about the fees and cutting out live music? Believe it or not, $150 or $200 a month can be significant for a small business. But you know that, because you were once just a bar/club player...like most of the guys on here.
'Course, it could be you're on the "other side" now, so you're seeing things differently.

Oh, and by the way I BUY my music. I'm still BUYING CD's and records. I don't do downloads, the Ipod, Spotify, Rhapsody, or Pandora stuff, and have no desire to. I've BOUGHT thousands of records and many hundreds of CD's, including several of Ricky Skaggs records and CD's, and I even BOUGHT your steel guitar course when it first came out. And, most all of the playing I do now is for nothing, so my conscience is clear. From what you're saying, it looks like the labels and publishers that are still really getting the lion's share of the money, so that hasn't really changed much in a hundred years.

Just follow the money, the big money, and you'll see who's (still) doing the real screwing.

I'm done with this topic.

I'll say one more thing and I'm done. You all have very valid points, the writer should get money for his song but from the people that make money. Leave the little Opry shows and small dances, senior citizen and such, alone. We do about 25 to 30 songs once a week on Saturday night of which half are old traditional songs Like Sally Gooden and such. Their fees are costing me over two hundred a month. No one can convince me that that isn't hyway robbery, I'm done.
I will add that times have changed in music because on the Internet and other factors that limit the sales of cd's. I haven't bought a cd in 20 years except from musicians and I'm not going to. There was a time when song writers got practically rich if they got there song on a major artist album, I guess those days are partly over so now BMI and ASCAP want to bleed every little establishment that even plays a song. It is just a fact of history, time changes, money changes. My mom and dad made a decent living in a little small store but you can't now. Thousands of local oil workers are laid off because gas is cheap fro over seas. It's all the same deal and still wrong for them to charge for what little music a place like ours does, now I'm DONE.

Our (4) piece band makes $300 to $400 for a 4hr. gig. I usually drink free cokes and coffee, but the other band members have a bar tab that eats into their pay. If we had to pay BMI, or ASCAP, we would be playing for free. Back in April, I played a gig 3hrs. from home, spent $40 on gas and food, was gone 12hrs. and made $70. I cleared $30, but I had fun Pickin'.....BMI has caused our band to lose some gigs because of these goofy fees. I think BMI should leave these little po-dunk bars out in the middle nowhere with 20people in them alone......And you boys that think pickin' is work, go hanging sheetrock all day, or grinding cutting tools in a machine shop, or up and down a ladder all day spray painting houses....Believe me, I've done all of the above, and pickin', though not as profitable, is much easier.

This is good to read the views of musicians directly affected by the dispersement structure--
and to read that John Billings knows the guy who wrote 'Time Won't Let Me,' the greatest rock 'n roll anthem of all time.
I hope he was paid handsomely and forever.

The times they are a-changing; it's possible that intellectual property will someday be a thing of the past. Sad funeral there if so.
The collections processes are in place; the question is will the songwriter and musician benefit in the future, or will corporations?
Scary possibilities.

If Charlie McDonald is right about the future of intellectual property rights,it may very well have implications beyond songwriters and musicians.Any country that doesn't respect ALL property rights is on a dangerous slope to totalitarianism.If you don't have property rights or the the right to the fruits of your labor,you effectively don't have any rights at all. This is the premise Bruce Bouton is arguing from. These rights are constitutional with their roots that go back to John Locke's political philosophies and beyond. I know Bob doesn't like political debates and I can understand that,but it seems to me this is where these subjects intersect and some things are ignored at our peril.Whatever the abuses any big business brings to bear on this doesn't change the constitutionality of intellectual property rights.I have had discussions with other musicians and am amazed at the hostility towards BMI and ASCAP for exercising this right.Musicians create under the protection of the 1st Amendment.See where the argument goes when that comes up.James Sisson has it right,if you don't like it write your own.I have heard of clubs that won't hire cover bands to get around that.If true ,it seems an honest attempt to respect those rights.

I hope I'm NOT right. Just looking at trends concerning lack of responsibility in general, and the cries of the masses for absolute equality.

Jon Alexander wrote:Any country that doesn't respect ALL property rights is on a dangerous slope to totalitarianism.

... or apathy. Either would be bad. The codependent state wants everybody to benefit equally from the talents of anybody. Boo.

Henry Matthews wrote:I'll say one more thing and I'm done. You all have very valid points, the writer should get money for his song but from the people that make money. Leave the little Opry shows and small dances, senior citizen and such, alone. We do about 25 to 30 songs once a week on Saturday night of which half are old traditional songs Like Sally Gooden and such. Their fees are costing me over two hundred a month. No one can convince me that that isn't hyway robbery, I'm done.
I will add that times have changed in music because on the Internet and other factors that limit the sales of cd's. I haven't bought a cd in 20 years except from musicians and I'm not going to. There was a time when song writers got practically rich if they got there song on a major artist album, I guess those days are partly over so now BMI and ASCAP want to bleed every little establishment that even plays a song. It is just a fact of history, time changes, money changes. My mom and dad made a decent living in a little small store but you can't now. Thousands of local oil workers are laid off because gas is cheap fro over seas. It's all the same deal and still wrong for them to charge for what little music a place like ours does, now I'm DONE.

Henry, I don't disagree with you. I think the songwriter should be paid, but there needs to be a distinction between a show like yours and a bar/club and that's making a lot of money selling alcohol to their customers while they listen to music. I don't know that there is a way that's fair to everybody.

Steve Gambrell: glad to call you friend and brother too. Just to be clear, I have seen the "bottom of the well", but not been there personally. I always had a day job and was lucky enough to get to play with some pros too. I observed some of my bluegrass idols living in housing projects in Nashville. Many times on the road I didn't eat even though I had money in my pocket, but other band members were waiting until we did the gig and they got paid, and I felt bad eating in front of them. Some would meet the bus in cars that I would be afraid to start to town in. They loved their music and were willing to live hand to mouth, show to show, to be able to play. Now, I thought they could have also worked some kind of day job too, but they didn't seem interested. i decided early on that I wasn't willing to live that way so I could be a career musician. There's some that make a decent living playing music, and I'm happy for them, but I never thought I was good enough to be in that category. But, I was good enough to be acceptable to Bill Monroe, etc... and play on the Grand Ole Opry. That's rewarding enough to me.

Sorry for the off topic.

OK, Rick. Thanks for clearing that up. You made the point that I was trying to. It's amazing, that so many giants in any "specialized" music (bluegrass, "real" country, like Dale Watson, or blues, or whatever) are forced to live in projects, or trailer parks, or "borrowed" housing (Bill Monroe)...

The latest I've heard, here in town, is that ASCAP is about tu turn the dogs loose on our little festival (Every town has one--Ours is the "Catfish Feastival.") for about 250,000 bucks, because Uncle Roy and Them haven't paid any performance money. Never mind that Uncle Roy cleans septic tanks for a living, and his band work on cars, or sell dope, or some other "honest labor."

Bro. Rick, b0b won't let me send a PM, so I'll tell you here in the open--I miss seeing you! You are nearly as sick as I am--I gotta admire that. Merry Christmas to you. Come see us!

several clubs , roadhouses, dives in my area had to stop live music because of this chickensh--- practice. so now there are fewer $50/night gigs available.
i agree that these fees should be taken from the
people who actually profit from it, not the struggling little club scene. especially the ones who still actually pay you instead of requiring you to bring in 50 people which is bullsh--.

steve g....you keep mentioning b0b revoked your pm priveleges .
what did you do?

Charlie McDonald wrote:This is good to read the views of musicians directly affected by the dispersement structure--

The collections processes are in place; the question is will the songwriter and musician benefit in the future, or will corporations?
Scary possibilities.

With scarier answers. ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC probably keep lawyers on the payroll. And how many small clubs, and weekend bands, and "amateur" songwriters can afford that? And who wants lawyers involved with music? (Charlie Sizemore, Rick)
I just found this site.. Some useful stuff, here.

https://www.songtrust.com/

You can't apply for SESAC--They gotta invite you.. I wonder why?

Chris Ivey, ask b0b. You have my permission. I'm outta here>>>>>

Wow, Thanks everyone for responding, theres actually more to it than I thought, its beyond me for the reason Why, but I see it ,

Not Joining up as a song writer or composer would mean no money from that avenue.

lets face it the internet literally killed records, retail pricing, trust in the service industry for making money off of parts on your service truck, just to mention a few before I get to far off the subject. It has done some good like bringin all of us together ,

The Black Beard taverns that arent 100 percent legal with the music cops will have a hard time advertising on facebook or public sites without gettin caught easily, what I think is funny is they give you a warning and a big "OR ELSE" just like our revenue collectors

Its angering, frustrating, seemingly mobbish, but deep in the music business its somehow needed somewhere for a composer to make some extra money, This topic will never be happy it will only be an argument to whichever side of the fence your on.

Thanks everyone and HAPPY CHRISTMAS

Having worked a 60 hr./wk day job and playing in a band on the weekends,both were equally as hard. I'll probably never see a dime of royalties for any of the songs I've co-wrote,because nobody bought them. On the offbeat chance that one of those songs get picked up or recorded by someone else, you're darn tootin' that I want my money. I worked hard on the lyrics and/or arrangements! I am a workman "worthy of my hire".

Anybody who has ever been a working musician will tell it can be low paying and a lot of hard work. To say it's not an honest living is a ridiculous statement. like Bruce said PRO's help musicians and writers collect what is rightfully owed them. That's the problem with this world today, everyone thinks that they are "entitled" to somethin' for nuthin' ! Now I sound like the old guy screaming "get off my lawn" ! Bottom line is that if you want to drive the bus, ya gotta buy the gas !

I read the "honest labor" remark as tongue in cheek, not a sincere suggestion that music was to be dismissed as easy or insignificant. Your Humor Detector might need new batteries.

" and pickin', though not as profitable, is much easier."

Try playing some gigs in Florida & then tell me that. Lugging 100s of lbs of equipment in 95 degree weather & full humidity, then playing with musicians who are either drunk or stoned, and have zero sense of aesthetics,dynamics,integrity or professionalism (most musicians here) and you'll be BEGGING to hang sheet rock; trust me on this! very rare that a gig in Florida is profitable or satisfying.

I think if someone writes a song & doesn't want bands performing his song, then he shouldn't put it "out there"Keep it a secret. If I wrote a song & walked into a bar & a band was playing it, I would be flattered & happy for the free advertising. I guarantee you that every time a band plays a cover song, the writer of that song has made more from it than the band will make prolly in their lifetimes. Make the clubs pay, and they will stop live music. Then their songs won't be heard at all, unless they are on top-40 radio. And, what steel player plays in a band doing top-40 country? None that I know. Band plays a Merle or Buck or George Jones song, that's the only way it's gonna get heard, since FM radio doesn't play their stuff. Then, when the clubowners cut out live music, people will stop listening to that genre altogether. Happened with big band, then doo wop, 60s,etc. The genre will die out, then all you will have left is the garbage they play on FM today.

There's not a gig in the world I would trade to hang sheetrock. You can't set on your can and play music for 4 or 5hrs. pack up a D-10, a Twin w/JBL's, a couple a guitars, and a Pac-A-Seat, but you would rather hang sheetrock?....Man, Not Me.... Playin' in the heat ain't nothin', try playin' outside in 20* weather, where everything is frozen solid, now that's tuff.... I've played outside in Florida, Alabama, Tennessee, Louisiana, Houston, Dallas, and Oklahoma in the middle of summer, it's still easier than working a real job....Playin' music may be work for some folks, but to me it's fun and I really enjoy gettin' to pick, even if the money, and the pickers ain't very good.

I think what Bill is saying is, a real bad gig is still better than a real good day at work !

Good gig,bad gig, or day gig,one of these has to provide financial compensation for your labor or buying the tools of your trade and/or hobby is more problematic.This whole thread is centered around compensation and the methods of acquiring it.Everybody expects it at some point whether you're an A-lister or a hobbyist.

I have all of my songs registered with ASCAP. I sell CDs of them and I perform them in clubs. I never get any money from ASCAP.

b0b, should not you be asking questions why not?

IMHO, this needs to be pursued in a rigorous legal manner. You need to be paid, why let someone else have money you have shed blood, sweat, and tears over? That is just wrong. Fight for what is yours. I do not care how pitiful a sum it might be, it is the principle of the matter. This is why the corporations get rich and the artist does not.

Just my 2 cents, YMMV.

Now back to my hole in the wall for another year.

This topic will never be happy it will only be an argument to whichever side of the fence your on.

Would have been a terrific conclusive statement here, but we all know better than that, right?

Who keeps up with what songs are played in clubs?...We play without set lists, charts, and sometimes repeat a song as requested....I heard the instrumental, "Apache" playing at an NFL stadium this past weekend, and wondered if a royalty was paid for that song?...With all of the 1000's of songs played by bands every weekend in this country, how in the world can every songwriter/artist get a cut of the pie?...Without a detailed list of songs actually played, it is impossible to keep a log of what's played and what isn't....Half of the songs we play, I can't even tell you the title of the song, or sometimes even the artist that recorded it....So, if you're a songwriter, do we assume your song is played twice a day, once a month, 1000times a minute, or not at all, I mean, Who Knows?...I sure don't.

Bill, to try to answer your question as best I can with a little knowledge (which is a dangerous thing), they use a formula known only to them which would naturally be skewed toward the major artists, the ones selling larger amounts of records or getting major airplay. Yes, as a BMI writer, I may get a check every few years for 19.95 for airplay I may or may not have gotten. Like b0b, I have never gotten ANY money for live performances in clubs where I play my original BMI licensed music, although they charge these clubs, allegedly to pay writers like me.

Bruce Bouton is a person I have known for years and respect immensely, but I would have to agree with those who point out it depends which side of the fence you are on. Try and get your song listened to by a major publisher or artist. It's pretty much a closed society. Bruce paid his dues and he is deservedly on that side.

To be clear, I am all for writers being paid for airplay, but the method of collecting and disbursing for live performance is flawed.

couple of decades ago back in Croatia, friend of mines dads job was to go from club to club, and collect money for royalties ... I always imagined him doing that dressed like Al Capone ...don't know why lol

IF we are writing music and selling our CD's or songs at local clubs, without distribution , they have no way of knowing. Sale of music is tallied by distribution not by actual over the counter sales .

Did you ever not wonder why a CD comes out and on DAY 2 it is number 1 in sales ? RE: Walmart orders 100,000 copies of a CD , that counts as 100,000 sales, even before they sell a single CD at a store.

My songs are ASCAP registered as well, I have sold maybe a dozen thru SoundCloud downloads, @.79 each over the last few months, how much should I be expecting ? How about ZERO!

But in the scheme of things those 12 downloads are now registered sales thru a streaming distribution outlet, SoundCloud.

Now on the other side of things, I record and produce simple 5 song CD's all the time, we sell them at gigs, these are NON DISTRIBUTION, NOT registered, they are word of mouth sales. I have probably sold 100 or more of these home grown CD's over the last few months. And yes, the cover songs , I pay the royalties for usage.

I currently have another one in process, 3 original songs 2 covers. I'll pay the tab for the two covers. I'll probably sell between 50 and 100 of these CD's as well over a 3 or 4 month period which is 20 or 30 gigs. I'll make a few hundred bucks and pay the tab for the two cover songs. ASCAP has no way of knowing that my own songs are being sold, why ? Because they are not in any formal distribution. But, I am getting paid !

The purpose of ASCAP and BMI for the minuscule artists like me is that the songs are registered with a formal agency and should by chance , some major artist picks up the song or STEALS the song, or it ends up being used in a film, radio, commercial or TV spot, ASCAP or BMI gets a phone call and the dogs are let out of the kennel.

Tony wrote:The purpose of ASCAP and BMI for the minuscule artists like me is that the songs are registered with a formal agency and should by chance , some major artist picks up the song or STEALS the song, or it ends up being used in a film, radio, commercial or TV spot, ASCAP or BMI gets a phone call and the dogs are let out of the kennel.

If Tony's song does go into a film at some point, isn't it Tony that should be paid for it?
That would seem to be separate from ASCAP's function, so yes, the system is misunderstood or it's not working right.

The licencing agencies may consider monies collected as a fee for protecting intellectual properties--paying protection.
Perhaps we should be grateful for the watchdogs as a necessary 'evil' even if they get the bone.

Damir Besic wrote:couple of decades ago back in Croatia, friend of mines dads job was to go from club to club, and collect money for royalties ... I always imagined him doing that dressed like Al Capone ...don't know why lol

I've heard that the musicians' union has its roots in the teamsters. Everything that revolves around musical performance may as well.
Perhaps we live with it because greed, no matter how petty, will probably live on with it, and we'd like some protection.
(I'm not saying it's a good idea, but it's been around a long time.)