The Steel Guitar Forum

I`ve been trying to get ''That tone'' for awhile now. I also have a MSA Classic and find it thiny sounding. I have a Nashville 400 (chrome corners) . I did change the pick-up for George L wich improved the sound dramatically .I recommend you start there. I know you have to router out the pick-up cavity, but with a little patience and a couple of those wine bottles you should be alright. I have a Lil-Izzy that cleared up the sound but at the same time makes it more bright. I just ordered a Black box. Hope this gives me better tone.I`ll let you now when I get to try it. Good luck on your quest.

Someone said..

I have found in my very limited experience that that tone you hear can change day to day. I don't know why!!

I will most humbly attempt to tell you why this is.
First, yes I agree the ear plays tricks.
But more importantly-
Do you ever play any sports? Golf or tennis perhaps.
Golf is a good example.
Someone with a "good" golf stroke not only strikes the ball "properly" but does it with consistancy.
If I have a bad day at the golf course it's usually because my game is just not on & I am not striking the ball properly and with consistancy.
Same with steel. Maybe I am not not digging in with my picks or maybe digging in to much.
Maybe I am not applying enough pressure with the bar or maybe applying too much.
Maybe I am not focused!
Again, as in golf, the best equiptment won't allow my to play like Tiger Woods. Good technique, focus, and consistancy (and a fair amount of good luck!) well someday I'll get that hole in one.

Die-board MSA guitar (1973)
Stock single-coils
Pot pedal
Fender Twin Reverb amp

https://soundcloud.com/user812921474/stones

Doesn't sound "thiny" to me!

As we are over the internet, (and we are all in the dark) lets try some basic's first;

1) pick up height, no more than 2 quarters thickness away from strings. Assuming of course the integrity of the pick up is good, any decent single coil for steel, is around 17k ohms plus?

2) hows your cables to the volume pedal, are they good with low loss?

3)how is the pot in the volume pedal, is it clean and seeing through, or is it muddy and tinny with tone loss? try bypassing vp?

4) Cable to the amp, is it good and high quality with minimal loss, do an ohms test? it be should close to zero at 10 ft

5) whats the EQ on the amp, try full bass, 5 mids, 2 treble and 4 presence if you have that? too many guys sweep out the mids, this is your home to thickness along with a mixture of other octanes.

6)Prefer a 15in speaker, pick around 15th fret.

7)RIGHT HAND...Do the winston churchill (V for victory and twist your wrist 180 degree's so the inside of your fingers are looking at you) then add the thumb between them, (sorry i'm a brit) lol. That's a good finger grip............ roll fingers 4 and 5 tucked away like bruce lee chop, if you are a palm blocker.

8)Angle picks so that you pick on the side of pick, not straight on which gives a 'tinny' mechanical tone. Advice from Jeff Newman... Use thick gauges,0.25 plus..


*9)The least responsible componant of the 'tone chain' is the (guitar) yet... it is the most (blamed) and swapped out componant in the Tone chain.

10) You can't buy Tone....But i have tried!

Couple of things:

First, this may not need explaining, but when people say about pickup distance "two quarters" or "three quarters", they are referring to the thickness of two or three USA 25 cent coins laid on the top of the pickup and just filling the space between the pickup and the string.

Second, Larry's view is as worthy of consideration as anyone else's, but a lot of people would say you want to hit the string with the full surface of the pick tip, not the side.

Donny Hinson wrote:Die-board MSA guitar (1973)
Stock single-coils
Pot pedal
Fender Twin Reverb amp

https://soundcloud.com/user812921474/stones

Doesn't sound "thiny" to me!

Interesting how different peoples perception of sound is.

To me that track shows exactly what I don't like about the die board MSAs. The lows are boomy and will quickly disappear into mud in a crowded mix. The mids have no focus and are really hardly there at all. That is where the money is when it comes to recording a steel guitar. The highs are fuzzy sounding to me. The overtones don't ring even so you don't get that sweet glassy shimmer that is such a major component of a tone that I find usable.

The only big thing about the tone is that it is the loudest thing in the mix. If that steel had to share equal sonic space with an electric guitar or a keyboard it would be nothing more than mush.

Here's Reece playing a maple body.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxsHpMLEJCA

Bob Hoffnar wrote: Interesting how different peoples perception of sound is.

To me that track shows exactly what I don't like about the die board MSAs. The lows are boomy and will quickly disappear into mud in a crowded mix. The mids have no focus and are really hardly there at all. That is where the money is when it comes to recording a steel guitar. The highs are fuzzy sounding to me. The overtones don't ring even so you don't get that sweet glassy shimmer that is such a major component of a tone that I find usable.

The only big thing about the tone is that it is the loudest thing in the mix. If that steel had to share equal sonic space with an electric guitar or a keyboard it would be nothing more than mush.

Bob, I don't play in bands where I have to "compete". I prefer working with players who will share in the mix. (Listen to the Time Jumpers to see what I mean.) Just "cutting through" a busy mix with tons of highs and sparkly treble is not my priority. You seem to prefer a tone somewhat like a Tele or Strat, whereas I prefer something more akin to a Hammond B3...I want big bass "balls" in my tone, not "Black Album twang".

Anyhow, what the OP wanted to know was how to get a fuller sound from an MSA, and not how to cut through a busy mix with some other brand of guitar.

Donny,
We live in different worlds. You have almost completely misunderstood what I am saying.

I don't compete with anybody in mixes or on stage ever. In order to get enough work to make a living my tone needs to be rich and full but stay on its side of the bed. The value to a professional player with a tonally stable guitar like an Emmons or Franklin is its ability to blend and at the same time retain its voice. This has little to do with cutting.

Your soundcloud mix does not show the steel sharing space. The steel is by far the loudest thing being played. This is not sharing. (very nice playing BTW)

I was listening to Reese Anderson one time playing with a jazz quartet. He started the song off by playing solo. It was one of the most beautiful things I have ever heard played. The chord voicings were astonishing. The problem was once the band started (All super pro considerate and brilliant players) the middle and lower notes in his chords turned into inaudible mud. His MSA just did not have the focus or enough retention of the even partials in the overtone series to handle ensemble playing.

Anybody can play any guitar they want. And strive for whatever tone they hear. I may be in the audience listening to a player playing a dieboard MSA and totally love what they are doing.

If somebody that plays a dieboard MSA asks why they can't get a sound they like. I will mention hands and experience are the main issue and then let them know that dieboard MSA steels have a basic sonic voice that is most easily described as crappy by many steel players.

Ken Greene wrote:Hi,

I'm just a flat-out beginner, guitar player, semi-retired, loves pedal steel, gonna give it a shot.
I have an MSA Classic S-10 from the 70's, works great, but I feel like it sounds a bit thin. I'd like to get that rich, full-body steel sound that I hear so often and love. I realize (as a guitarist) than quite a bit of tone comes down to technique, so I do consider that. I looked into changing the pickup to a Bill Lawrence, but turns out mounting it is not so easy, and probably have to route the guitar. Don't really want to do that.
Any suggestions at all for getting a great tone with this MSA, would be greatly appreciated. Just comment on anything that comes to mind, I've got a lot to learn and I'd like to hear it all.
Thanks, and warm regards.

OK, so now you've heard all the classic diatribes on PSG tone (PSG brand, amp, effects, etc.). I'll say this, when I first started playing, I had the same question: How do I get the tone that the pros get? Fortunately, the PSG I started taking lessons with was an early 70's Emmons S10 p/p. However, that didn't guarantee that I would have great tone. The amp I was using at the time was an Ampeg Gemini I (an early 60's, 22-watt guitar amp with a 12" speaker), and I don't remember what kind of cheap volume pedal I used. Anyway, I was progressing nicely with my lessons, but my tone still wasn't what I considered good. So I bought a Peavey Artist amp (an excellent amp for PSG - if you can find one) and a Goodrich volume pedal. So, now I had good quality gear, but I still wasn't satisfied with the tone I was achieving.

All my PSG playing heroes were frequently using effects (delay, chorus, flanging, octave dividers, distortion) and I mistakenly thought that's where all the tone I sought resided. So, over the next several years, I bought all kinds of effects on up and through a rack mount, Peavey Profex II. I thought, I'd finally found out the secret to good tone... Until I heard a recording of me playing. What I heard was my sound so buried in effects that the tone was un-decernable. Mostly, I used reverb with about a 375 millisecond delay (to fatten the sound ).

I'd remembered that my teacher, forum member, Paul Carestia plays without gadgets and his tone was/is wonderful, not to mention what an outstanding player he is. So, I decided that while practicing I would not use any effects, including amp-based reverb. During my first practice sans effects I discovered, to my horror, I not only had sucky tone, but I'd also gotten lazy with my attention to intonation. From then on I decided that I would rely on just the guitar, amp and volume pedal to get the best tone and intonation I could get. The result was, not only did my ears get better at hearing intonation, but my hands naturally developed the skills I needed to get all the tone the guitar was capable of.

To this day, 99.9% of the time, I play using only the guitar, the amp (with a very slight amount of reverb) and a volume pedal. Once in a great while, I'll use a Bosstone fuzz effect if the song calls for it.

Ken, before you start chasing your tone down the rabbit-hole of guitar/amp/pickup combinations, practice concentrating on proper left and right hand technique as well as listening for intonation. Through diligence you should be able to develop into a comfortable playing ability with all the tone that is capable from your MSA guitar and Egnator amp. At that point you will be able to accurately decide what, if any changes (guitar, amp or pickups) are best for advancing your tone.

Best wishes for enjoyment and success playing your PSG.

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn

An interesting thread...

The OP is a self professed newbie...I think we are going too deep into the nuances of pro tone for his level. He is looking for an acceptable practise tone at this point and doesn't need an 8000 dollar Franklin quite yet.... although I am sure that once a player finds the grail..a lesser guitar is not satisfactory.

I am pretty sure there is something pretty simple here.... sometimes a certain combination of gear compounds and colors tone to the wrong side of the eq spectrum.

What if this all turned out to be a result of wearing 0.015 picks. Or having an amp stacked with New Sensor Tungsol 12ax7s? I know my Shobud through a solid state amp has a thick rich tone. .. plug it into a tube amp and it thins out alot.

Questions have been asked for details of his signal path. . And to the extent this is not forthcoming we are just speculating around 20 percent of the info we need.

Glenn's summing up is well considered and well put and I hope everyone takes note of it.

It's been interesting reading the (knowledgeable) criticisms of MSA guitars. I have been in the interesting position over the last few months of trying to sort out my right hand while playing a new instrument I built myself. When I first tried it I had no idea whether I liked the sound of it or not because I was too preoccupied with finding my way round twelve strings. Then I started on Right Hand Alpha and after a while it started to work and now I really like the sound I'm getting. That's not to say I can't build the next guitar better, but I'm more than content with my first effort.

Word of warning about signal chains, though. My old pot pedal needed cleaning more and more often, but seemed o.k. in between and I put off fixing it. Then I saw one with a lower profile for less than $40 so I tried it. It turned out to be very good and the sound is so much brighter and cleaner. Don't know how well it will wear, but at that price it counts as disposable.

I agree with using just a volume pedal to start with, but make sure it's in good order!

Larry said:

1) pick up height, no more than 2 quarters thickness away from strings. Assuming of course the integrity of the pick up is good, any decent single coil for steel, is around 17k ohms plus?

Not a hard and fast rule in my book. It's a good 'starting' point. My Carter with Lawrence 710 pickups, 2 quarters space tends to want to overdrive the input on my Nashville 400. Granted, the Carter is a mica guitar with metal necks, which to me, would be a lot brighter than an MSA. Mine is about 3 quarters space and I'm still experimenting (because I am next to the bass player and my tone seems to get bastardized by his tone. This doesn't happen in bands where I am not next to the bass player).

6)Prefer a 15in speaker, pick around 15th fret.

15th fret??? I know nobody that picks at that fret, other than for certain effect. Most pick closer to the pickup. Almost everybody I know, picks around the 24th fret, plus or minus a few. If I was to pick around the 15th fret, I would keep running into my picking hand with my bar hand. Or, I would have to keep moving my picking hand up and down the neck. A 15" speaker is also my choice. But, I agree with the others that say you need to switch to a more steel friendly amp.

Ken, I know your problem, you're drinking the wrong brand of wine. Try something from California, it worked for Merle.

Seriously, as a long time amateur, you definitely should try other amps. Solid state might not give you the exact tone you want, but it might make it easier to play. They're more forgiving than tubes. IMO. Also try the George L cords, they are noticly clearer than most others.

all good advice here - even the conflicting pieces - this is a thing where your path might be different from others.

For me, also a former guitar player, the key thing was finding that, unlike a 6-string where you create dynamics by picking lighter or harder, on a steel you don't. Instead, create dynamics with your volume pedal, and as Dave Grafe advised me, always "Pick it like you mean it". It is too easy to be tentative, as a new player, and that is exactly the wrong thing to do.

To clarify my endoursment of George L cords, I was going over some past threads on George L"s. One post I found was quite right on. The question was "Are they worth the $$$?" (they are not expensive).

Donny Hinson responded

"If you want clarity and emphasis on the highs yes. If you like full fat sounds, then they don't really add much"

All my cords are George L except the cord from my guitar to my buffer amp which is before my pot volume pedal. It's a high quality cable (i think I paid close to $100 for 10' of it) that adds to the fullness of the tone. You just have to experiment to find what best works for you. But a common consensus on this forum is that it's the one simple item that's can be easily added to improve tone.

Another issue are the George L right angle, which are convenient between effects. Many here have problems with them, I also. Now if you slice a bit of shielding off the side to expose the grounding wire and then tighten the metal cover that connects to ground so the wire makes a good connection to the cover, they work just fine. Best to add the plastic cover and still be gentile when disconnecting. I don't know why they discontinued the angle connector that's built similar to their straight connector.

I am sure all have a different opinion....but Id use a monster rock or jazz guitar cord any day before a George L....seems to me George L are so bright because they are either really good at transmitting highs or really poor at transmitting lows. In any event...it has been a couple years since I gave up on the George Ls...maybe I will hear them differently today.

I'm in a similar situation as the OP in that I have a student model and have actually been brave enough to record a steel lick on an into to a tune I wrote.

Then I heard a Ford truck commercial and want to kick it all to the curb.

From what I have heard, Williams, Fessenden, and Rains guitars have the deepest/fattest tone. Technique and effects (in that order) go a long way too.

I'd put amp as equal to technique and ahead of effects.
Get a veteran player to sit behind your student model...

Ron Anderson wrote:I'm in a similar situation as the OP in that I have a student model and have actually been brave enough to record a steel lick on an into to a tune I wrote.

Then I heard a Ford truck commercial and want to kick it all to the curb.

I've heard that same commercial!
But Craig Baker sent me a LI'l Izzy the next week, thereby saving my steel and amplifier from that same curb.

In all seriousness, I did not like my tone for the most part the first couple years. But after continuous practice, listening to some decent advice (thank you Bob Hoffnar and William Litaker!) discarding just about everybody else's in regard to equipment needs and offers, I am really liking the way my Stage One/Fender amp combination sounds this past year. It really comes together with picking hand technique. There is no other substitute, no other palliative treatment. I think Lane offers a good idea, getting someone who is seasoned to sit behind your steel and hear how it sounds in their hands, get an understanding of the possibilities.

I can get my Single neck/10 string to sound deep and round, or my preference for somewhat edgy and twangy, by how I pick the strings. Angle, position, attack, all that stuff makes a difference, but it comes down to developing a strong foundation in picking technique and that takes time at the wheel. Not saying the OP or anyone else is not putting the time in, but for me it took a lot of serious hours for a couple years through some good instruction on picking technique. And that is a continuing process.

Well lots going on, lots being said, I can add nothing except...

I have had many Steels over the last decades , 2 or 3 MSA's like yours. Very nice guitars, good overall tone but they are a bit darker with the stock PUPS than other instruments.

That being said , left hand bar technique ( pressure ) and the weight of the bar will make a huge difference in execution and tone , as will your right hand picking technique.

The height of the pup in relationship to the strings is relevant, as relevant as NEW STRINGS. On an electric or acoustic guitar, when tone fades the first thing to do always is change strings.

Of course practice, the same thing over and over and over, not necessarily for the song but for the execution. Ya gotta do it all. Reece referred to this as "perfect practice".

Now once you are satisfied with your execution and you have brought out the tone of the Steel, then you can talk about gear.

I currently have 3 Steels ,I really like all 3. One plays smooth as butter, but lacks in (my opinion) tone compared to the other two. It's a 2004 built axe. The 2nd one, late 70's built, has pretty good action and produces a different tone, more to my liking. Same picks same bar, same amp, same execution. The 3rd, early 70's build, action is less forgiving but the overall sound of the guitar is superior to the other two , it just has something that came with it , built in. Same picks, same bar, same amp, same songs, same execution.

All three are maple wood bodies, only the 2004 is a mica covered axe. All 3 also have the same Cobra strings and new.

So, in essence, there's a lot going on but ya gotta start with technique and execution before you can figure out if changing gear is gonna be of any assistance.

1 of my first steels was an S-10 MSA classic and it was so thin sounding I soldered a 10K resistor or some thingamajig right at the input jack ..warmed it up quite a bit

if my tone is bad, i figure it is 'my' fault.