The Steel Guitar Forum

Stephen Cowell wrote:

Les Cargill wrote:There you go, Tony. If the voltage is 10x lower, then the current is 10x higher for the same power/energy. Current raises more heck with electronics than voltage because heat is proportional to current.

... and what makes the most heat, tubes or transistors?

I prefer tube amps, just don't tell me they're more reliable than solid-state... I know better.

I'd actually have to have a lot of data ( and I don't - advantage Stephen ) to say whether old Twins are more reliable than solid state. The thing about olde point-to-point is they're more likely to be more repairable.

I personally have had failures mainly in solid state equipment, but I've really only had the one tube amp. It's only needed input jacks and there was a mod ( made before I bought it ) that went bad after a couple years.

well there is this :

The market is strong with USED Fender SF amps that are still functioning , many have had little maintenance. Many are in dire need of tubes, YET, they live on...

This may be an indicator of a reliability factor.

I personally do not dislike SS amps, I own two heavy duty power amps for the sound system, a PV 2x400 watt PA head, two Gallien Kruger Bass heads ( one is on the fritz) and the 66 Super Beatle which works kinda. It's issues are not limited to SS related but also workmanship related and poor design. But when it comes down to amps for guitars at gigs, it's Fender tube amps. In all of my years playing gigs, approx 50 years, I have never had a Fender amp die on a gig. When I recently played Bass only, I carried two GK amp heads, one as a spare, and guess what, one night the spare saved the night ! MB200, nice little amp head saved the night.

I had a SF Twin (AB768 chassis) that came with two 12" D-120F's. I replaced the 120F's with a 4 ohm K-130 and improved the twin for steel. I sold it and went solid state with Peavey steel amps for many years.

I recently (a couple months ago) bought a Carvin BX500 amp. It is mostly solid state but does have a 12AX7 with High voltage and a "real" preamp mode (not a typical starved plate design) I didn't realize how much the tube added to the sound. The Carvin BX500 and an Eminence EPS-15C speaker makes it sound somewhat like my old Twin. The Eminence speaker reminds me of a JBL. Our lead guitar player who is a "must have Fender tube amp" type even likes my sound. He uses a mid 60's Pro Reverb.

Jack, I don't think anyone is referring to "sound". I loved my N400's when I owned them. The discussion is about long term maintenance and repair-ability for the average slug.

My SS GK Bass heads have hands down killer tone over my Fender amps, but not in the repair-ability category.

Basically solid State amps don't need any service ..ever.. until they do !

Tony, as a former amp tech, that is why I dumped the Twin in favor of the solid state Peavey amps - no tubes to replace. But as I've found out tubes still make a difference in sound.

As far as buying an old tube amp and the reliability, its up to the person. Some would not find having to rebuild it (or at least partially) an issue. Others do. I just replaced the filter caps and the standby switch in our lead guitar players mid 60's Pro Reverb. I replaced a failed dual cap last year. He wrestles with tubes and carries spares with him, but doesn't consider any of this an issue.

checkmate ! As an old schooled tech I love tube amps !

I hate working on SS amps , you can't fix em with rubber bands and bubble gum...

I've never found tube amps to be "high maintenance", but then I don't replace tubes that work. My Mesa/Boogie Maverick Prototype still sounds great with most of the original tubes after nearly 20 years of steady weekend warrior gigs. The only trip to the repair shop was following an accidental connection to a 220-volt line which also fried solid state amps on the same circuit.

I think that most people who spout "high maintenance" are simply justifying their solid state decision. Most of us who use Fender, Music Man, Boogie, Milkman, etc. don't have maintenance problems. Also FWIW, most of the guitarists I work with use Fender tube amps, especially the Fender Princeton Reverb. I never hear them complaining about maintenance.

The Princeton is underpowered for pedal steel, of course, but a Pro Reverb or similar (2 x 6L6) is all you really need for gigs. All large venues mic the amps nowadays. You don't need to haul a big, heavy amp anymore, like we did in the 80s.

Bob Hoffnar wrote:One thing to keep in mind with old real Fender tube amps ( not to be confused with the abomination that the" reissue " fender amps are ) is that they can be temporarily fixed on stage during the gig by banging on them hard with your hand while yelling your favorite obscenity . It's like having a can of fix-a-flat built in to get you to the end of the gig. It's seems weird but I have used this technique with great success hundreds and hundreds of times.

In the IT industry we call this percussive maintenance.

In the manual there are instructions for the secret knock that turns them on...

Blues singers call it "going upside the head."

It's interesting how many tube amp owners are very knowledgeable about how to fix tube amps.

tube amp owners that also play steel guitar tend to have a little more in-between the headphones than your typical 6 string slinger

if you own a pedal steel, chances are you know a few things about how to keep it in tip top shape. Same goes for your volume pedal (replacing strings and pots) and for your amplifiers.

Right on Tony Prior everyone else with negative comments about Fender twins could stand to soak some of this truthful knowledge up !!!

Its just hard to go wrong with a Nashville 400.

you can get one for $300 and it will last forever.

Then you can save up and invest in a tube monster if you want and keep the NV400 as backup.

There was a Sano Revelation paired with a stewart stero power amp for sale here on the forum. It was unde a grand. That'll sound better than most tube combo amps you'll find.

IMHO...

Right on Tony Prior everyone else with negative comments about Fender twins could stand to soak some of this truthful knowledge up !!!

Fender Twins are too heavy!

re: soaking up truthful knowledge

Right on Tony Prior everyone else with negative comments about Fender twins could stand to soak some of this truthful knowledge up !!!

Justin, et. al.

This is a string that may be worthwhile reading while we are on the subject of vintage Fender TR's:

http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum11/HTML/003914.html

That is an excellent thread!

Here's the current forum copy of that topic:
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=61249

OP here....I'm currently stuck on my decision. Locally, I've got a Fender Deluxe Reverb (RI) the owner is allowing me to try out. Another steeler from a band we opened for a couple weeks ago was usin one on their tour and it sounded good. This particular venue had the best sound I've ever played with. I have always have PA support if needed, so not sure if I need the extra oomph of a Twin. Plus, the Deluxe is much lighter. However, the price is $700.

I also received an offer on a '67 Twin (non-master) recabbed with a 15". Price is $900 and a 2 hr. Drive to pick it up. I'm sure this puppy is a tone monster and if I was collecting, I'd go ahead and buy it now.

What I need is an amp I can carry to my 2-3 gigs a month and be happy with the tone. It's looking like I'll be playing some big festivals this summer, but still should have PA support and my own monitor feed. I'm just worried the Deluxe will be underpowered, but then again with PA support, who needs the power of the twin?

Justin, until recently I was using a 30 watt Mesa/Boogie Maverick for all of my gigs, and I never felt underpowered. In every case where more power would have been required, the venue provided a sound system and mic'd all amps on stage.

One of the bands I play with doesn't even own a PA. If the venue doesn't provide one, they hire a guy who knows what to bring and does the out front mixing. Other bands have a small setup for club and social gigs, but rely on pro sound for large halls and outdoors. Nobody who gigs regularly carries big amps around anymore.

That's the way it is here in North California, anyway. If I were you, I'd go with the Fender Deluxe.

I've been looking at a Peavey Valveking 50 II
but it sounds like I should just keep my Vegas 400 any thoughts.

well.. as far as depending on a sound crew 100%, that may come back to haunt you.

Big shows generally have a monitor crew and a MAINS crew. Regardless of which amp you bring the Mains crew will either have you in the front mix or not, you will never actually know because you are behind the mains....

The monitor crew, well thats another story. They usually sit at the side of the stage... Small room, small venue you may be just fine with a smaller amp, but on a large stage , especially outdoor, you may not hear your smaller amp behind you and you may rely on the monitor crew 100%...and right there is a life's experience, one you will never forget.

For me, I don't actually like monitor feeds as they are bright, shrill and overpowering whats behind me, sometimes they are too loud.

I like hearing ME from behind me, so on the bigger stages I always bring one of the bigger dogs, Twin , HR Deville or Showman. On an outdoor big stage you can never be wrong with bringing a more powerful amp but you can find yourself lost with a smaller amp that is trying to push air, and can't...

Or you can just trust that 100% of the time, the monitor crew will be perfect....

Or, have your amps turned around, off-stage, with a blanket over them.

Amen Tony.

David Spires