The Steel Guitar Forum

Actually, I didn't try to figure out what the chords were since I didn't know the chords to the song. I just wanted to find a place where the notes could be played. I guess I'm not oughta here after all. Dan, How did you get hold of that transcription? <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 07 January 2003 at 08:10 PM.]</p></FONT>

Geez, you guys...

You are exposing my nonexistant reading ability,......

OK I admit it, I posted the first example I found of Joe Pass's playing I found on the internet....

I suppose I should find an example of Joe Pass's playing that proves my point, but maybe I should leave sleeping dogs lie.

But I still would like to hear an example of steel guitar playing that matches the Joe Pass style.......



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www.tyack.com

I like that middle D string!

Dan, I like the challenge. You don't have to "let sleeping dogs lie". Can you pull another Joe Pass arrangement off the Internet? I'd rather you didn't scutinize a load of them trying to find one of two chords that can't be played. Just take whatever comes up and throw it out, and I'll try to tab out the chords. I've done this sort of thing in the past, and have found that these sorts of exercises improve my own playing and thinking. Once I tab it out, everyone can benefit from it. I'm pretty good at doing tab and I can find the notes pretty fast, but anyone else is welcome to do it. So, if you're up for it, try to throw out another Joe Pass transciption. And maybe this time, can you include the chords to the song? Thanks .. Jeff

Here's a good one:
http://www.content.loudeye.com/scripts/hurlPNM.exe?~mm-475124/0076373_0103_07_0002.ra

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www.tyack.com

I'm on my work computer. I tried downloading the file but my computer doesn't recognize it. I'll try it at home later. If you can download it, maybe you can post it like you did the other one. If it's too big, maybe just post the first few staffs. Like I said, I'll try later at home. .. Jeff

Given the range of the guitar, I think that it would be hard to come up with a guitar transcription that couldn't be played on C6th. It would be pretty easy, though, to write a C6th arrangement that couldn't be played on guitar.

The C6th has the polytonal capability of two hands close together on the piano. Myself, I'm happy if I can just get the piano's right hand part.

When I first started playing C6th, I sat down to work through a familiar Bach piece (the title escapes me right now). The music was a series of five note arpeggios that fell easily within the range of the instrument. I was moving right along until I hit the 6th measure, a fairly simple chord, and discovered that I had to do a 10 fret jump to get all of the notes. The D string (or a lever that would make a D) would have solved that.

To me, that was a major disappointment. I feel that the middle D closes a very important gap in the C6th system. I think that note is necessary if you want to play things other than "steel guitar jazz" with the tuning.

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<small><img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 08 January 2003 at 12:52 PM.]</p></FONT>

b0b,
My point of view is that, you were able to find it in the end, even if you had to move 10 frets, and also, if the D note is a note you need sometimes, then you get a pedal to give it to you. I see nothing wrong with that. I want an F note sometimes, so I have a knee lever that lowers the 5th string to an F. This is, for me, a very useful change, but I would NEVER put an F note in the tuning. The trouble with adding notes that aren't inherently in the logic of the tuning is that you are taking a tuning that was designed to work efficiently, and you make it inefficent for the purpose of a note that you occasionally want. What if you decide to compose a piece with a real lot of arrpegios? You will continually have to aviod that note. I play alot of arrpegios, a real lot, in my arrangements, and occasionally I need to skip a note. When you are playing intense vertcial rolls up and down the same fret, the last thing you want is a note that isn't there, that you have to focus on skipping all the time. That D is such a note. Try playing minor7 arrpegios with that note, try playing minor7b5 with that note. How about a simple dominant 7th. Diminished 7th. Major7. And so on. You put it on a pedal, and you use it when you need it, that's fine. Otherwise, I personally don't see it. But of course, this is IMO.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 08 January 2003 at 03:30 PM.]</p></FONT>

Dan, After a couple of shots, I got it to download. Unfortuneately, it was a .WAV file, and used Real Player, and was distorted somewhat, but not so much that you couldn't tell how nice it was. The buffering in Real Player makes in impossible to constantly pause the playing so I couldn't hone in on his exact voicings, which is hard enough to do with good sound quality and pausing. My sense was that it was very nice jazz harmony, but not anything that you couldn't do on the C6 tuning. Those chords are there. But, the virtusity is another matter, of course. Can you get the transcription?<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 08 January 2003 at 03:43 PM.]</p></FONT>

That file is a real audio streaming file, and as such the quality leaves something to be desired, and you can't pause easily (as you have found). I know there are Joe Pass transcriptions available for sale, the one I came across (through entering 'joe pass solo download' in google) was a freebie, but wasn't particularly complex.

I guess my challenge isn't whether it would be possible to construct the chords in a Joe Pass solo piece on the C6th tuning. I know that it would be possible, Joe Pass's chordal palette isn;t particulary complex (it's pretty standard 50s bopish mainstream jazz). What I would like to hear is an example of a steel player playing in that Joe Pass solo style (with the walking bass mixed with comping and soloing). That's what seems particularly 'guitaristic'. Not the voicings (which aren't difficult) but the performance.

Note that I am not suggesting that Joe Pass's style is superior to what a steel player could do. I can do things in the jazz idiom that guitar players would love to play (but can't because of the limitations of their instrument). Likewise that particular (guitaristic) playing style is relatively hard to pull off on the pedal steel. Maybe it's easier than I thing, but I have never heard a steel player do it.

And back to the original issue of b0b's 12 string tuning. I simply don't understand how adding notes (without pedals) to the copedent takes away anything. Anybody who has spent time with this instrument knows that any time you can have a note available without the use of a pedal that's a big positive. I do understand (boy do I understand) the limitations of using 3 picks when playing jazz on the steel, and do understand why those C6th standard 'strums' were developed (to get around the limitations of the 3 pick technique). But I just don't get how adding an additional string takes away from the C6th tuning, as long as the player is willing to do the work required to add 1 or 2 additional picks, which gives much more flexibility in terms of string choice, voicing, attack, etc.

One thing to consider is that adding the middle D greatly increases the efficiency of playing scales/modes all across the neck. Anybody who has studied jazz improvisation knows how important this aspect of soloing is.

Another thing to consider is that the world's formost bebop steel player and the creator of much of the standard C6th copedent (Buddy Emmons) uses a middle D on his current 12 string C6th tuning.

This last is all that really needs to be said. In terms of playing mainstream jazz/bebop, Buddy is it (he wrote the book).

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www.tyack.com

<SMALL>If you listen to Joe's solo playing, he is choosing very specific 3-5 voice harmonies in his chording, picking these with his fingers </SMALL>

<SMALL>I guess my challenge isn't whether it would be possible to construct the chords in a Joe Pass solo piece on the C6th tuning. I know that it would be possible</SMALL>

First you say it matters. I refute it. Then you said it didn't matter.

<SMALL>I can do things in the jazz idiom that guitar players would love to play</SMALL>

How about a couple of examples. Harmonies, bass, melody. That sort of thing.

<SMALL>One thing to consider is that adding the middle D greatly increases the efficiency of playing scales/modes all across the neck. Anybody who has studied jazz improvisation knows how important this aspect of soloing is</SMALL>

You move the bar 2 frets. You gotta move it 1 fret for all the chromatics anyway. So you move it 2 frets for that one D note you occasionally play. Or you get a floor pedal for the note. And anyway, anyone who studies scales for using in improvisation know that most of the time you don't actually PLAY the scale, you just use it as a pool of notes from which to draw from. No rules says they all have to be at the same fret! If you play diminished scales, half the notes are on a different fret. If you play wholetone scales - you have to move 2 frets to get a note from the scale at the upper register of the fret. What about harmonic minor scales - you're moving the bar all over the place!

<SMALL> I simply don't understand how adding notes (without pedals) to the copedent takes away anything</SMALL>

Read all my previous posts. I collectively gave a number of reasons. Extended chord voicings not available with 4 picks, arpeggiation, etc. etc.

<SMALL>Buddy Emmons) uses a middle D on his current 12 string C6th tuning.</SMALL>

First of all, his incredible technical virtuosity puts his in a position where he can control any problems with it (you know, like using his bar thumb to mute the string). Us mere mortals need all the help we can get, and a non-common-sense note doesn't help. And besides, does he actively play that tuning - on records, at shows, etc.?

Hey, don't forget those examples!

Pay attention to what Jeff has said-"he lowers his 5th string G a whole tone to F.

I use that and concur with Jeff ,that is very important pull.

Another good pull is lowering the 6th string E to D(there is your D).

I use them both and wouldn't play without them for the old jazz tunes.

Having heard Jeff Lampert play "Christmas Song" and Larry Bell play "Winter Wonderland" gives you an idea of what can be done on the Steel Guitar outside of the usual country style.
Very impressive..al

Jeff, I don't understand your contention that the D string makes it hard to play arpeggios. Skipping strings when picking is no big deal, is it? I've never found it hard to play arpeggios on the low strings of the E9th, or on my F Diatonic.

Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean. When you play arpeggios, do you cross-pick, or roll, or what?

Al, I've always thought of Winter Wonderland as a country tune. It's mostly triads, isn't it? Merle Haggard, Faron Young, Randy Travis and Chet Atkins have all recorded it. (Actually, the song transcends such labels. I'm just yanking your chain. )

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<small><img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic

Jeff,
Have you ever tried using the middle string D tuning ? It might be worth checking out. There is allot to it that comes in pretty handy in an ensemble situation. Its been working for me anyway.

Bob

I was a bit disappointed to hear that you're losing the diatonic tuning - I'm still discovering things there myself, though of course I haven't put the time into it that you have.

The more I think about it, the more reasons I can think of that you might have wanted to make the switch.. care to satisfy my curiosity? It sounds as if this extended C6 is going to be used for the kind of things that you used diatonic for up until now.

Here's a guess; the C6+9 tuning gives you a much bigger range, with that low C. The addition of the d's makes the tuning a pentatonic scale, so it's conducive to thinking in terms of scales or of chords, and to blending the two concepts together, which is always a big challenge and goal.

I like 6th tunings because of the way they can be conceived as either a fattened triad, a major triad superimposed on its relative minor, or a gapped scale, and you've taken that one note farther, retaining the scalar concept with a bigger range. Also, when you leave a scale step out of the tuning it eliminates temperament compromises and leaves some modal choices open - there's no sevenths in your open strings, and the fourth only in the bass, so you can slip into Lydian or Mixolydian colours very easily without changing the tonic position.

Is this the kind of thing you were thinking?
I like the "inner d" idea myself. Also, even if you don't go back to a diatonic tuning, it must have been a big education
for your right hand to work with it.

It also might be true in the long run that a diatonic tuning makes more sense on an instrument without pedals. What do you think? <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by John Kavanagh on 10 January 2003 at 10:30 AM.]</p></FONT>

Well, John, there were a few surprises in the diatonic adventure. Everything you've said above is true. I will probably put the F diatonic on another guitar at some point, but I'm going to shelve it for a while.

The diatonic is wonderful for sight reading, but it's limited in range, and in the ability to create the kinds of steel parts we're all used to hearing. For that reason, I was unable to use the guitar on gigs. I plan to play out with this expanded C6th.

One oddity of the diatonic occurs when you use fingerpicks. Most of us are unaware of the small sounds that happen when the back of the pick touches the string above the one we are playing. That sound is usually a harmony note on the E9th or C6th tuning. On the diatonic, the next higher string is often just a half step away, so it was very easy for unintentional dissonace to creep into the music. I solved this by playing without fingerpicks, another technique that is hard to pull off in live performace.

I discovered that the diatonic could be tuned to meantone temperment for most music, but when I tried to play jazz chords it had to be retuned to equal temperment. This was acceptable in my home studio, but again it wasn't something I could do in live performance.

The bottom line is that the diatonic tuning is a wonderful specialty tuning, but it's ill-suited for general stage performance where a wide variety of music is played.

I'll probably set up the F diatonic on a D-10 or D-12 someday to continue using it, but for now I play to use this expanded C6th to get further into new age music, and to work up a few classics. Also, the fact that C6th is great for western swing will give me an opportunity to play this guitar on stage. It's 25 years old and has never been gigged!

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<small><img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 10 January 2003 at 10:45 AM.]</p></FONT>

I'm not going to get in deeper than I already have in this....

Jeff. there are a number of books out their with transcriptions of Jazz Guitar solos, and I'm not going to buy any, one because that's not my bag, and second, because my reading is so bad it would be a whole lot easier for me to learn it by ear. I'll post some other 'guitaristic' examples and you can listen to them if you want.

I agree with Bob that it might be a good idea to fool around with the D in the middle (you can do as Buddy and Paul F did and put this change on pedal). I played the standard C6th for over 2 decades, and this tuning really works for me. I didn't know how much of a difference it would make until I tried it...

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www.tyack.com

Bobby Lee-When I said "outside of country" , I meant outside of the usual E9 configuration that is usually associated with country music.....al

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Al Marcus on 10 January 2003 at 09:27 PM.]</p></FONT>

<SMALL>I'm not going to get in deeper than I already have in this....</SMALL>

.

You haven't gotten in "deep" at all. In fact, you have not provided, IMO, a single piece of real proof to support your generic claims for the superiority of the D note in the tuning. The only attempt was that Joe Pass transcription which took 15 minutes of my time to refute by figuring out the chords and writing the tab to show you how to play them. Not that that would be proof anyway, since there are always alternative harmonies that could be used just as effectively. Of course, you're under no obligation to supply any proof, and you haven't.

<SMALL>I'll post some other 'guitaristic' examples and you can listen to them if you want.</SMALL>

No need. I have plenty of examples.

<SMALL>you can do as Buddy and Paul F did and put this change on pedal</SMALL>

I have it on a floor pedal and I've tried it.

<SMALL>I played the standard C6th for over 2 decades</SMALL>

Means nothing to me.

<SMALL>I didn't know how much of a difference it would make until I tried it...</SMALL>

Means nothing to me. Where's the proof? Where's the examples?

Guys, just to give you an idea of how I view the C major scale on the C6 tuning, and why it means nothing to me for anyone to say that the D note should be added to the tuning, take a look at this layout.

<font face="monospace" size="3"><pre> 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14

1_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____
2_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____
3_____|_____D_____|_____E_____F_____|_____G_____|_____A_____|_____B_____C_____|_____
4_____|____BC_____|_____D____DE_____|_____EF____F_____G_____G_____A_____A_____|_____
5_____|_____A_____|_____B_____C_____|_____D_____|_____E_____F_____F_____G_____|_____
6_____E_____F_____G_____G_____A_____|_____B_____C_____C_____D_____D_____E_____|_____
7_____D_____D_____E_____E_____F_____G_____G_____A_____|_____B_____|_____C_____|_____
8_____|_____B_____C_____|_____D_____|_____E_____F_____|_____G_____|_____A_____|_____
9_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____
10____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____</pre></font>

When I improvise in the key of C, this is what the neck looks like to me. That's not to say that I know the notes by hard, or that I am equally efficient at using all of them, just that any C major (or D Dorian, or G mixolydian, or whatever) pattern that I use can potentially rely on these major scale notes, because the string, fret, and pedal patterns that I know use these notes. Wherever you see two notes on the same fret, it means that I may or may not use a pedal. Of course, this does not include the chromatics. That's another matter. But the point is, thinking in terms of a single extra D note to save the bar movement is preposterous. I do the same with the other scales I use (diminished, whole-tone, jazz minor, harmonic minor). Bar movement all over the neck is just the reality. Of course, the other side is all the disadvantages that I see, spelled out in all my previous posts. .. Jeff


<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 10 January 2003 at 10:47 PM.]</p></FONT>

Geez....

I think its time for me to head down to the bar for a big glass of Anafranil.

Bob<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 11 January 2003 at 01:49 AM.]</p></FONT>

<SMALL>I think its time for me to head down to the bar for a big glass of Anafranil</SMALL>

What's giving you a headache, my comments or the fretboard?

Ok, I admit I'm being overbearing on this. But we've had this disucssion before several times, and, not that I'm entitled to anything, 'cause I'm not, but it sure would be nice to have an example, some proof, anything to show why you feel that this is a superior tuning. You say it works better in modern jazz. What do you mean by that? Don't name a song that no one ever heard of, spell out a specific musical idea. You say it works better in ensembles? What do you mean by that? What SPECIFIC aspect of playing in an ensemble makes it better? You say you can play certain scales? Then tab one of these scales out. How about it - just show us something - anything!

b0b, if you would like me to lay off this thing, I would be glad to do it. Just give me the word, and I'll leave it alone, and you guys can go ahead with anything else you want to talk about. <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 11 January 2003 at 06:19 AM.]</p></FONT>

<SMALL>When you play arpeggios, do you cross-pick, or roll, or what?</SMALL>

Fast rolls, vertically both up and down the fret, creating a harp-like effect. Pianos and harps do these fast scale rolls and I like that effect. I saw Curly Chalker on tape do it, and liked it alot, so I worked on it. I did it at the very end of my clip of "The Christmas Song". Trying to imitate that musical dynamic is difficult for me, and I have to rely on the tuning to help me. If I have pedal 5 and 6, or 7 and 8 down, for example, it would be very hard to control that D note at harp/piano types of arrpegiation speeds.

No problem, Jeff. I took the liberty of adding two D strings to your chart, to see how things line up: <font face="monospace" size="3"><pre>
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13
1_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_
2_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_
D_____|_____E_____F_____|_____G_____|_____A_____|_____B_____C_____|_____D_____|_
3_____|_____D_____|_____E_____F_____|_____G_____|_____A_____|_____B_____C_____|_
4_____|____BC_____|_____D____DE_____|_____EF____F_____G_____G_____A_____A_____|_
5_____|_____A_____|_____B_____C_____|_____D_____|_____E_____F_____F_____G_____|_
6_____E_____F_____G_____G_____A_____|_____B_____C_____C_____D_____D_____E_____|_
D_____|_____E_____F_____|_____G_____|_____A_____|_____B_____C_____|_____D_____|_
7_____D_____D_____E_____E_____F_____G_____G_____A_____|_____B_____|_____C_____|_
8_____|_____B_____C_____|_____D_____|_____E_____F_____|_____G_____|_____A_____|_
9_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_
10____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_</pre></font>It seems obvious to me that the D strings add a lot in the way of convenience when playing melodies and two-part harmonies. While you're correct that those notes are never more than two frets away, when you move the bar you always lose the sustaining ring of the previous notes. I like having the option of keeping that ring when I want it.

On the E9th, I have some solos that ring out a pentatonic scale quite beautifully. Adding that sort of effect to the chord-rich C6th doesn't seem like a step backwards to me. I'm not saying that that the D string is necessary. I'm just saying that it's not a bad thing.