The Steel Guitar Forum

This is not intended to further any argument pro or con and with all due respect to all responses, I have a friend that is totally blind except for a shadow like image in a very brightly lighted area. He plays an Emmons all pull and has a half dozen, more or less, knee levers. He lives in Denton, Maryland, works with a group known as the "The Jones Boys" and plays an average of 2 or 3 jobs a week. His playing ability is as good as any average bar room steeler and better than most. He is on top of todays country as well as the old "Price" sounds and shuffles. His name is Tom Kaufman. Perhaps some of you players in his area have heard him play. He also plays a "Tele" style of lead as well as a "clean" Gregg Gailbreth (sp) style and, he also plays country style fiddle.

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kd...and the beat goes on...

Tom's email address is;
tomcat@dmv.com
He has an audio program for his work on the computer.

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kd...and the beat goes on...

imagine the possible replies for
vertical frets + lucky 7

Forum Members,

I'm so excited about this major breakthrough, associated with the steel guitar horizontal fretboard, that I must tell you this. I will never go back to the horizontal fretboard again. When I
placed the 2'' wide prototype in a temporary track holder and proceeded to play, I thought to myself, this has exceeded my expectations 10 times over. All of the positions are clearly before my eyes, and the nose of the bar goes right to the positions with total accuracy. The fretboard can be placed at different angles for eye comfort.

Bill H. <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 26 September 2002 at 02:18 AM.]</p></FONT>

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 26 September 2002 at 04:04 AM.]</p></FONT>

Steve F.

I like your suggested name for the "Angled Bar Guide". You thought that the name "LUCKY 24" could be used as a referable title. I think so too. Therefore, I accept, and it is agreed upon at this time.

Bill H.

Steel enthusiasts,

This morning I gave the newly designed fretboard a good workout with Hank Williams' "Mansion On The Hill". I came away from the steel totally elated. "I can see clearly now" as the song goes. Most of all I wanted to mention that my version of the "Lucky 24" will be retractable to facilitate slipping beneath strings for transporting. While in use it simply rests on the front edge of the instrument, and is stabilized by spring tension and collapsible flat stock. I can't wait to take the "Lucky 24" out of the house on its maiden voyage, and to demonstrate its total efficacy.

Bill H.

Though I am of the, "It's an ear thing, not a visual" school of thought, I commend you on your project, Bill.

I see your "L-24" as sort-of "training-wheels". Use it to learn, then remove them.

I have a removable Sho-Bud fingerboard on my Carter. It looks cool, but I sometimes flip it over to the all black side. (never in public)

I then try to play fretless. It's painful but worthwhile practice, IMO.

Even Buddy posted here that he sometimes practices (simulated) blind.

Joe Wright is a big influence for me. His drills helped develop my "no sight" approach.

<SMALL>I will take the necessary steps to secure a patent on the proposed fretboard, after checking on the costs involved to do so.</SMALL>

Quite frankly Bill, patents don't seem to mean very much in the steel guitar industry.
The costs associated with this would be significant. I would think a marketing study of your proposed product would be a serious first step. Can you supply these to builders at the same or less cost of their current product? Do the builders even want this? As you may be aware, the steel guitar world is very reluctant to change anything. The vast majority of us are over 50, and really are not very interested in change. I think the term that best applies here is "old fogies", unless we include Marty, and then I think "old foggy" is more apt.

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Steve Stallings
Bremond, Texas


<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Steve Stallings on 26 September 2002 at 07:06 AM.]</p></FONT>

Steve S.,

I've concluded that this "Lucky 24" 2'' wide angled fretboard placed at the tip of ones bar will revive the spirits of all, young and old. I can't begin to tell you how much more enjoyable playing the steel has become just overnight. My interest in playing the instrument has peaked to level I've never experienced prior to the new concept.

Bill H.

How about some kind of laser light curcitry or set-up beneath each fret. When the bar is exactly centered above that fret position a small (or VERY LARGE) light bar could eliminate, indicating Green, for right on; amber, for almost made it; and, RED, if you missed your mark. With today's miniaturization and all, this should be a relatively simply chore. It might even work for slants.
If you've really missed the fret by a great margin, perhaps bells and whistles could activite. Just a thought........Oh well.
I truly shudder when today, one can hear so many individuals that are not precisely tuned, but who play with pedals out of synch and crooked bar positioning........yet will argue that they "tuned with their electronic tuning device" and therefore, it's everyone else that's out of tune. It's like for some folks, the ears simply aren't connected.

Ray M.,

Thanks, but no thanks for the lights. The bar nose appears for the first time in steel guitar history, to be touching the fret, while in reality it isn't. What more could one ask for as a foolproof guide to exact fretting capabilities. Simply put, nothing more is required. It's everything I've wanted to reverse the inability to see all the frets, all
the time.

Bill H.

Bill,

Could you expain the "mirror effect" some more. I use lots of effect when I am on stage, however this "mirror effect" has me puzzled somewhat.

I think Bill's idea is great for beginners or people without pitch acuity.

What I'm wondering is what about the larger strings under the back of the bar being in tune?

How about this idea...

Install small magnets between the strings directly over the frets. They should provide a small magnetic pull when the bar is perfectly in tune.

Maybe the bar will stay on the strings (in the correct position)

One advantage; You could scratch your nose without scratching your face from the picks!

tbhenry,

Absolutely, and by all means, I will respond to the "Mirror Effect". The mirror effect occurs when a narrow mirror, approximately the width of yard stick, and the length of the fretboard is placed properly near the front edge of the steel guitar. When placed properly, it will reveal the frets near the 1st string. The bar nose can be guided to the correct fret by this arrangement. Use an unbreakable mirror to prevent injuries. Encase the mirror to prevent sharp edges from causing injury. *Velcro will make it possible to anchor the mirror in place.

Bill H.

Bill,
All of these ideas of yours are fine and good but just when can the rest of us experience this euphoria that would make sleeping with Marilyn Monroe seem like changing a tire in the rain? I read all about the Lucky 7 and now this space aged fretboard but I'm a hands on kind of guy. Just when can the rest of us see this thing in action? I could be your middle man and we could enlist Bobbe Seymour to distibute this fretboard to the rest of the world. Bobbe if you're reading this I thought of it first!

Hey Bill, when can you start shipping????
I'll take one.

Hey, Billy H.....
Why not bring your invention, Lucky-24,
to the Mass Steel Bash in Chicopee this Sunday, and let Doug B. or Smiley take her for a test drive.
Better yet.... how about that old grouchy machinist, Sammy G.

Heck, I'll even give one a workout, if you're so inclined.

Anyway, a steel jamboree is the perfect place to present new ideas and stuff.

I would have responded sooner, but I was out of town.

Bill, for most of us, this device will not work because playing on the frets will make us sound out of tune! It works for equal temperament only.

For example, when I play the A+F position, my bar must be considerably sharp of the fret position. This is because the C# note is tuned flat and the F note (actually E#) is tuned twice as flat when compared to equal temparament.

The frets are rough guides, to be used to get you "in the ball park" when you first place bar to strings, or when you are doing a long gliss. Trying to play everything "on the fret" will only make you sound out of tune more often, if you tune your guitar to just intonation like most of us do.

Even in equal temperament, the phenomenon called "cabinet drop" requires the player to move the bar sharp or flat when using pedal and lever combinations. Otherwise, he will be out of tune.

Like several others in this discussion, I feel that this invention is a very bad idea.

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<small><img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)
Roland Handsonic

SEE?!
Not just BAD!
VERY BAD!!!
Pack up yer snake oil, bub!

Bill,You may have something here for some folks and my comment is strickly intended towards Marty. Marty you are full of it on that last remark and I'm still laughin. INSTRUCTIONS: Now this is not intended in anyway to get you started up again. They've got you down to a boil and would like to keep you there. Still laughing.

Bobby Lee,

In all due respect Bobby, I can't resist throwing a few punches of my own. Please don't scoot out the back door, and ride off. After those profound statements you've made, please allow me to hear all you have to say as a continuation of the quote, "It won't work for most of us". Now really, why might it work for some, and not for others? I've already stated that I'm experiencing more pleasure playing the steel, than ever before. Sort of like, carrying water without the hole in the bucket. This statement that I'm about to make, will cause a rub in the entire musical community. It's impossible to be perfectly in tune while playing any stringed instrument. Would you care to hop on that "bronc" and go for a spin?
I'll take it as far as necessary to prove the point. Therefore your purported harangue concerning this new concept does not hold water. It smacks of the old wrench in the machinery routine. I would enjoy going deeper into one of your main interests, (tuning and pitch problems) if you so desire. Please keep in mind that I have the greatest respect for you, and if you feel that this would be a waste of your time, simply say something to that effect.

Bill H.

I was wondering how long it was going to take for someone to finally say that your not suppose to play "on" the frets "all" the time.LOL,Bill

Not once have I advocated playing off the frets. The frets are there for the sole purpose of guiding the player to the correct positioning in seeking specific notes. I would lose interest rather suddenly should there be a reason to go about contemplating compensatory bar movement. If a pedal steel became that difficult to play, I'd park it upside down on the workbench, and proceed with a physical analysis. I will never resort to playing "off the fret" as an alternative to mechanical compensators. There has always been a combination of minuscule pitch changes involved while playing pedal steel guitar, due to various gauged strings, which are sensitive to the instabilities of the instrument. The "Lucky 24" will not interfere with bad habits developed over the years, but rather, will serve as an excellent enticement to gain considerably more control of the bar. There is nothing more effective than gunsight alignment. The "Lucky 24" is set up to provide this advantage.

Bill H.

If the extended fretboard is a bad idea, then you must consider your existing fretboard a bad idea as well, even a worse idea. This is nothing more than a point of reference in a perpendicular and unobscured plane and, again, seems like an inspired idea.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Michael Holland on 27 September 2002 at 04:59 AM.]</p></FONT>

<SMALL>carrying water without the hole in the bucket.</SMALL>

You really CAN'T carry water in a bucket without a hole; without the hole, it's impossible to put in water in the first place!

<SMALL>purported harangue </SMALL>

Do you know what purported means, Bill?
b0b's post is an existing, verifiable harangue; nothing 'purported' about it.

Dude, your grasp of the finer (and grosser, actually) nuances of the english language is tenuous, at best.
Perhaps you should confine yourself to the use of two syllable words and lose your trainwreck metaphors altogether.

On second thought, don't change a thing; you make me laugh more than anything else on the Forum...