Is the C6 a 'Dated' Tuning?

[Edward Meisse]

I agree with all the above comments about learning to OMIT the A string for major chords and in situations where you don't want the "6th bomb"! I like that term. That A string, of course, is valuable because allows us to play full minor chords, harmonized thirds, and helps us in playing scales.

That's exactly what I mean.

[Ulrich Sinn]

Is there any definition of this "new" or "contemporary" sound as far as dynamics, harmonies and progressions etc.?
sure....anything that leaves out 6th chords....

I would actually go further than that. Guitarists go through all kinds of contortions these days to get their intervals assembled so that they don't sound liked stacked thirds: easy for piano players.

Simplest case (and working almost in every style) of music is replacing the root with the major second, not as a bass note of course.

Close intervals and fourth stacked chords are pretty much out of reach in a C6 tuning.

[Ulrich Sinn]

...and combine that with the fact that voice leading beyond planing is very much black magic on a steel guitar

[Mike Neer]

If one is inclined to investigate deeper harmonic and intervallic possibilities, the C6 tuning is the perfect place to start bread boarding. I have no doubt that other tunings will be created, but C6 as a foundation is a real solid start.

[Mike Neer]

Oh, and one man's 6th is another man's 13th.

[Mike Neer]

... The steel guitar is NOT a chordal instrument. It is a lead instrument. It has much more in common with the violin than with a spanish guitar as far as musical output goes. It plays single notes and double stops and an occasional triple stop. Trying to play chords is not really going to work in the long run (unless you want to add pedals)....

Edward, I couldn't disagree with this more. It is totally a chordal instrument. For the past few years almost every track I record uses only steel guitars as chordal instruments. Spend a few hours/day investigating the possibilities and building the facility to pull it off and you will change your mind.

The steel guitar has the best of all worlds. Not all steel guitarists have figured this out.

[Bill Hatcher]

Not a chord instrument..........I didnt know that.

[Paul Arntson]

Best music advice I ever received (not about just steel) was not to let the instrument play you. Rather, you need to play the instrument.

[Edward Meisse]

... The steel guitar is NOT a chordal instrument. It is a lead instrument. It has much more in common with the violin than with a spanish guitar as far as musical output goes. It plays single notes and double stops and an occasional triple stop. Trying to play chords is not really going to work in the long run (unless you want to add pedals)....

Edward, I couldn't disagree with this more. It is totally a chordal instrument. For the past few years almost every track I record uses only steel guitars as chordal instruments. Spend a few hours/day investigating the possibilities and building the facility to pull it off and you will change your mind.

The steel guitar has the best of all worlds. Not all steel guitarists have figured this out.

I knew by the tunings you use that you would disagree.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d43nagVqbU

Variety is the spice of life.

[Edward Meisse]

Not a chord instrument..........I didnt know that.

The above goes for you too, Bill.

[Edward Meisse]

Sorry for the appearance of glib disrespect above. I was interrupted. But to get back to what I was saying, I have a bit of an advantage over you two, having heard some of your postings. I have probably spent less time on the guitar than either of you. I'm hoping that the first recording project I've been involved in gets done this summer. It is going on and on and....for various reasons. And I'll post some links. I love what y'all are doing. And I have experimented with it. But I find that I can't even get full jazz chords in of every kind and in every voicing out of a pedal guitar, let alone the non pedal variety. The tunings and techniques you guys use make it much easier to suggest these chords very effectively. Another interruption.....I'll be back.

But the spanish guitar almost always does it easier and more effectively. I think that what you guys are doing is always going to be for a certain class of player who enjoys experimentation among other things. I think the future of the steel guitar will be in 6 strings. I'm thinking of going back to 6 strings myself. It will either continue to be a very narrowly focused open tuning instrument or it will become a mainstream instrument with the Jerry Byrd C6. The 6 string Leavitt tuning is a possibility. But it's a long shot. I find that what one gains with it in chordal possibilities, one loses in the possibility for the very nuances that draw people to the lap steel. Few, if any beginners will be drawn to what you are doing when there are so many simpler options available. As for pedal guitar, perhaps a C6 player or a Basil Henriques style player might pull it off. But Nashville E9 is less and less popular even in Nashville than it used to be. And here in Sonoma County, California, with my opinion and $1.50, you can ride the bus.

BTW Mike, with the techniques you used so well in the Surrender CD and C6 tuning, you can play style of music you care to try. You already know that.

[Dennis Anderson]

Full disclosure... I play open D tuning on lap steel and open G on dobro. This is a fruitful discussion and I'm learning a lot. I don't think "dated" is the best term to use in relation to C6 tuning. As mentioned by others, it can be seen to be more versatile... especially with minor chords. What I will say is that when players start sliding around on those 6ths over a major key, it is immediately recognizable. And ear automatically places it in a certain style or genre of music. I think the term 6th bomb expresses it well in that its use immediately locates the music in a very specific harmonic landscape.

[Edward Meisse]

Full disclosure... I play open D tuning on lap steel and open G on dobro. This is a fruitful discussion and I'm learning a lot. I don't think "dated" is the best term to use in relation to C6 tuning. As mentioned by others, it can be seen to be more versatile... especially with minor chords. What I will say is that when players start sliding around on those 6ths over a major key, it is immediately recognizable. And ear automatically places it in a certain style or genre of music. I think the term 6th bomb expresses it well in that its use immediately locates the music in a very specific harmonic landscape.

What you appear to be saying here is that if somebody plays a major scale, either harmonized or not, when the sixth note of the scale sounds, your ear automatically places it in a certain style. The only scales I know that lack that note are the blues scales, the whole tone scale and the diminished scales. Major scales are out? They suggest a certain style? I have a very difficult time understanding this. Most pop music is still based in the major scale.

[Doug Beaumier]

Edward, I don't think Dennis was referring to scales. I think he's referring to chords, 6th chords in particular. i.e. when a player strums across the strings the 6th chord is immediately recognizable, and it sounds a lot like Hawaiian or Swing.

...when players start sliding around on those 6ths over a major key, it is immediately recognizable. And ear automatically places it in a certain style or genre of music.

That's why it's important to OMIT the A string for major chords.

[Edward Meisse]

That is why I asked for a clarification. And he did refer to sliding over the 6th. If what you are saying is correct, his objection is to the dated use of 6th chords in general and not to the dated nature of 6th tunings on steel guitar.

Hey Dennis and other players of open tunings. Maybe I can explain it to you this way. A year or so ago, a student of Rob Ickes whose name I think was Billy Carlisle recorded an excellent jazz CD in open G dobro tuning. He called it, "6 String Swing." I highly recommend it especially to open G players. My comment to him was that I did NOT hear that open 5th interval that screams DOBRO in the course of these recordings. His reply to me was that he studiously avoided that interval in order to sound jazzy rather than hillbilly (my paraphrase-not a quote). It is the same way with the 6th note in a 6th tuning. It can be avoided when its' use is inappropriate. There is no such thing as a dated tuning. There are tunings that make one approach to the guitar or another easier or harder. There are tunings that are more or less versatile. But there are no dated tunings. And as I said above, with my opinion and $1.50, you can ride the bus.

[Doug Beaumier]

I agree, no such thing as a dated tuning.

I'm wondering why some steel guitarists use the term "open" tuning when talking about Lap Steel Guitar or squareneck dobro... That's a Guitar players' term to describe a re-tuned guitar... "open G" or "open D" when talking about a standard guitar that has been retuned from the standard guitar tuning. In the world of Steel Guitar all tunings are labeled by their "open" chord or their open scale in the case of diatonic tunings. Saying "open" is redundant and unnecessary in the Steel Guitar world. I'm just sayin...

[Rick Aiello]

From the original post ...

I can't think of any modern steel player that uses C6, for all its harmonic benefits - Ben Harper, David Lindley, etc all favor open tunings and even Cindy Cashdollar seems to abandon the C6 when called for most of her sessions (other than western swing).

The "open" tunings ... 151351, 515135, 135135 etc ... With their Perfect 5th, Perfect 4th, Major 3rd and Minor 3rd adjacent string intervals ... Have been around a long, long time and are quite useful ... No doubt ...

My issue is that from a practical stand point ... The string gauges used in any one of the above, really locks your steel into a pattern ... Hi bass A or G , low bass A or G, Open E or D ... Tweaking that "5" note to a "6" (ala Sol Hoopii) ... Helps in getting a different sound ...

But by throwing in that Major 2nd interval ... The same set of strings can give you a vast variety of varied tunings ...

That was my intention in my earlier posts ...

The ironic thing ... Those simple "open" tunings are much more "dated" ... Chronologically speaking

[Mike Neer]

The lap steel itself is dated. After pedal guitars became the status quo, only Hawaiian and fringe musicians like Freddie Roulette, David Lindley and a few others even played lap steel. The only players who continued to even play C6 were Western swing players and Hawaiian players. But these were also the players who were striving for excellence on the instrument. The rest of the lap steel players were primarily guitar players who tuned it to a straight up slide guitar tuning. This became the norm for a quite while. This is also my story until I realized that there was so much more possible if only I was willing to put in the time to learn. Went all the way back to the beginning and finally (reluctantly) suffered through 2 years or more of a humbling and humiliating learning process to get a grasp of C6.

The way I see it is I am striving to create my own music for the instrument, but on the level of those other giants. A man can dream can't he? But it also keeps me invigorated.

Today, I don't see the lap steel as a dated instrument, but one with with many possibilities if we are willing to learn from the past and then move on from it.

[Edward Meisse]

I agree, no such thing as a dated tuning.

I'm wondering why some steel guitarists use the term "open" tuning when talking about Lap Steel Guitar or squareneck dobro... That's a Guitar players' term to describe a re-tuned guitar... "open G" or "open D" when talking about a standard guitar that has been retuned from the standard guitar tuning. In the world of Steel Guitar all tunings are labeled by their "open" chord or their open scale in the case of diatonic tunings. Saying "open" is redundant and unnecessary in the Steel Guitar world. I'm just sayin...

You're right. But I use it because I have noted that steel guitarists tend to use the term differently than spanish guitarists. On the forum, I have most often seen it used to distinguish D, E, G and A tunings from 6th, 9th and 13th tunings. And that was my intention as well.

[Edward Meisse]

Mike Neer said:

Today, I don't see the lap steel as a dated instrument, but one with with many possibilities if we are willing to learn from the past and then move on from it.

And one of these days, one or more of us will find a way that resonates in a more popular way than current approaches do. I'd love to hear the instrument in a much more general use.

[Jerome Hawkes]

The lap steel itself is dated. .... The only players who continued to even play C6 were Western swing players and Hawaiian players.

The rest of the lap steel players were primarily guitar players who tuned it to a straight up slide guitar tuning. This became the norm for a quite while.

good point. that slide sound is what most people associate with the steel. i have been in jam sessions at a local open mic where if i do the 'slide guitar' thing (however badly) it always gets a response and offers to sit in with bands, yada, yada. they dont really care much for what i would call 'steel guitar proper' outside the novelty aspect. just another novelty next to the musical saw or theremin unless you grit it up and go 'bottlenecky'. i've found E7 is a nice compromise, for me in these situations - i still feel like i'm playing a steel guitar vs a lap slide guitar.

[Niels Andrews]

It is amusing to hear about dated tunings. I was just thinking that about the piano, I think it goes back too between 1655 and 1700. The current tuning on Joe Bonemassa's guitar is about 1546?
Perhaps what is stale lies elsewhere besides the tuning of the lap or pedal steel?

[Mark Eaton]

Necessity is the mother of invention, hence the seemingly endless array of steel guitar tunings.

The piano with its linear nature seems to be laid out to perfection for western music, there apparently hasn't been any need to mess with its tuning.

[Lee Cecil]

While I'm pretty sure I have nothing worthwhile to add to this discussion, I would like to point out that a previous post by Edward Meisse which refers to "Billy Carlisle" is in error. It's Billy Cardine. Billy Cardine's playing is proof positive that you can do essentially anything you want with a given tuning, especially in terms of single note lines. "Six String Swing" is great, but so is "The April Sessions" which is Billy's jazz quartet recording. In addition to being a talented and original player, Billy's also just a great guy, and I recommend his music to anyone.

[Andy Volk]

"It's not in the tuning. it's in the brain."
- Marian Hall, Steel Guitarist