The Steel Guitar Forum

Common sense says that because the band tunes A to 440, the steel's A's should be tuned to 440 to be in tune with the band. Then when you tuned the E's harmonically, you will find that the they are around 442 or 442.5. Then tune up all your other strings and pedals with harmonics. Ricky's way of tuning is 100% correct and Buddy Emmons tunes with harmonics also. Now, let's all spend more time practicing!!

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Some other issues that Jeff didn't mention are:
Strings: Different strings must be tuned differently. The overtones need to be compensated for. If a string is going dead it will not be tunable. The only time I can get a string in tune is when it is fresh or all the way dead. On the E9 tuning if you use a wound 6th string it will ring very differently than a plain.

Bar pressure: ones own personal way of using the bar affects the notes in a big way.

Different steels:
If a steel does not accentuate the even overtones within its basic construction it will always sound flubbery and never quite dead on with intonation. Even an individual note can sound off somehow.
I know that we are all supposed to say that all the steel brands are great but they are not.

Neck: Try playing an open major triad on 3 strings. Then play another major triad at the 8th fret on the same 3 strings. Move on up to the 15th fret. If you have any ears at all you will find that each triad is very different sounding.

The only way to play in tune is to train your ears. Tuners are a usefull tool in some situations but are absolutly useless when it comes to playing in tune.

I just think a bunch of you guys are just plain bonkers when it comes to the cabinet drop thing. The guitar I use for sessions and most gigs these days is my Franklin and it has cabinet drop but I have no more problems playing it in tune than I do with any other steel.

If you use your eyes to find out if your guitar is in tune it will probably never be.

Bob

<SMALL>If a string is going dead it will not be tunable.</SMALL>

That's a real good point, Bob.

Carl, I don't see how you can stand to play every day on strings that are two years old. Do your ears a favor and put on some new strings. I think that you've proved your point about string breakage by now. You deserve a new set of strings!

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<small><img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Here's my two cents.

The steel has to sound in tune with the center pitch of the band. Without continuously developing the musicians ears this tuning battle is lost everytime no matter what tuning method is chosen.

I can vouch that Ricky most definately has the ears it takes to work professionally in any arena. Hang in there! You're right on the mark with the silent majority on this topic.

Once the bar is on the neck, whether anyone can play in tune without highly developed ears is a bet not worth taking. The bar is the ultimate tuning device.

I tune to my version of JI. Using JI there are combinations that are inherently out of tune without some sort of remedy. We can probably all agree on that. Instead of tuning to ET which is believed by some as the ONLY remedy for this problem, I chose to solve that problem by using compensators on the strings that were creating the problem within JI. I have no problem playing all of the seventh, ninth, and first string combinations in tune with the band. ET is only ONE way to solve the problem. Compensators is the OTHER way which is my preference. ET also brings to the table a few inherent tuning problems of its own. The end result to this debate will always be this, ALL tuning methods are some sort of compromise. We must choose the one most pleasing to our way of listening.

Whether its an orchestra or a small band, the steel player will either play in tune or not. Since I have recorded many times with full orchestration as well as playing live with an orchestra I can state from firsthand experience that one setting does not require any more tuning abilities than the other. If you can play in tune with the first three instruments (Bass, Piano, Guitar) the next fifty instruments or so added to the track will not make any difference to your tuning at all. Why? Because they all are tuning to the same center of pitch coming from those three combined instruments as we should.

Paul

Recognizing that I'm NOT nor will ever be the professional steel player as many of you fine Forumites obviously are, I simply have to say that regardless of which corner you're in, I could play 100 SLOW verses of Steel Guitar Rag on my 32 string Bigsby quad (in TUNE!) while a few of you guys are content to stand on the side of the stage debating the technical and/or proper way to tune your instrument. HOW MANY TIMES HAS THIS SUBJECT BEEN DISCUSSED ON THE FORUM and some folks still can figure out the simple fact that if you're out of tune.....somebody ain't gonna fit into the "good" sound of the group.
Never in my life, until the invention and introduction of the electronic tuning device, have I ever seen/heard so many steel players playing so horribly out of tune with the rest of their group and yet displaying a measure of self confidence unsurpassed.
I wonder if that's why some bands are shying away from steel guitars....? Having two necks with 10-12-14 strangs in perfect tune with one's own personal tuning gadget.....does not necessarily make a pleasant sounding harmonious group. There are other musicians and instruments that must be dialed into this forumla.
Since the advent of tuning machines, one can see more and more of the "independent" attitude among steel players.....if'n you get to the stage early and watch them set up.
It's like.....I'm in tune (just like B.Emmons or J.Byrd or H.Rugg or J.Newman) so to H--- with the other members of the band.
After playing my Bigsby and Emmons for decades and having everyone tune with/to ME... to my high "E" note, I NEVER ENCOUNTERED tuning conflicts.....unless somebody in the group was TONE DEAF!!!! (or simply drunk!)
Then, some years back, I broke my own rule and played with a group that had an electronic keyboard with player who had even taken music lessons.
Night after night I chased my strings, tuning pitch, etc.....all over the place and at the end of the four hour gig, I was still "OUT OF TUNE". Then....I discovered the little moran could electronically adjust his PITCH by turning a little knob like on a tape recorder........ Once we placed some duct tape over his little knob, EVERYONE was successful in staying in tune all night, week after week.
Today, so many pickers seem locked into the misconception that "I'm in tune" without any regard to where the other band members are at relative to a standard pitch of one kind or another. HOW DOES THIS WORK?
This attitude would be interesting if it were applied by "The Four Tenors" or "The McGuire Sisters" or any other close harmony
vocal or instrumental group. No matter HOW you get there....you either are IN TUNE or OUT of TUNE! There is no GRAY AREA IMHO.
To prove this, detune your 5th string on your E9th neck....just give it a partial turn, lower it a smidgen, and then play for not less than two hours...using pedals and the like. Forget that contraption called a tuning device! If you fail to determine that your rig is out of tune or what you should do about it, then you need some real help.
I'm leaving town in an hour.....so no ugly emails expecting an immediate response, okay? If you cain't TUNE IT.... you shouldn't be on lesson #2 yet.

Some food for thought...the older the strings...the less the string detunes or, the less cabinet drop. If you change strings too frequently, you will have tuning problems untill they are "used" enough to settle in. I am sure the old timers and some of the more experienced players will agree with me. As amatter if individual preference, you can tell when "your strings" need replacing. I always loosen and snap the wound strings and replace the unwound. Of course, as long as the intonation is good, and they ring...keep on playing the unwound until they go dead or break.

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kd...and the beat goes on...

<SMALL>...the older the strings...the less the string detunes or, the less cabinet drop.</SMALL>

Kenny, I hadn't heard or noticed that, but if true, could explain the lack of detuning on my Dekley as the strings are over one year old!

I'm waiting for a break from gigs and to recuperate from my recent move to disassemble the changer and do some work on it. I will test the detuning again with new strings after I get it back together.

I know that when I was obsessed with intonation (checking cabinet drop and worrying about calibrating each string and change) my intonation was much worse than it is now. The ear is the best judge, imho. For most of the sessions I do (other than tracking) I tune to the track (I get the tone center from the track and tune appropriately, by ear). As Paul says, the ultimate control is the bar. I know that there are combinations that are inherently out of tune given the way my ear works. This is not only acceptable, but is one of the primary interesting things about the steel guitar: that it is capable of playing in tune (unlike the piano or guitar). I have learned how to play with pianos, string sections, etc, but there are many other ways to accomplish this other than to accept the compromises that fixed pitch instruments have been forced to take (ET). The fundamental principle is to take the fret markers as a guide, not a rule.

I had one last year where the tracks came from the "orchestra factory" in Seattle. They were so out of tune with themselves I had to be told who to play in tune with and disregard the others.

Jim, You do have a great guitar...however, may I recommend that you only change a couple strings at the time. Of course, if the changer needs cleaning...Go for the whole thing. All kidding aside, As your strings age and settle in, you will find that the "drop zone" is affected due to loss of the elasticity of the strings as they "age". I don't do much studio work so I don't change my strings a frequently as a studio player does/should. Just thought this might get a laff or two.

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kd...and the beat goes on...

Paul, once you find the "center" of the band for a tuning reference, do you tune the beats out for all of your major pulls, factoring in the compensators?

Also, Paul,
What strings on E9 do you feel need to be compensated, given your pedal and lever changes?

How 'bout C6?

Hope you see this -- I'm sure we'd all be interested in your answers.

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<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 14 June 2002 at 08:16 AM.]</p></FONT>

Till Paul gets back.Given his codedent. I would like to guess and say he uses lower return compensators on strings 2,4,5,6,8 and 10 on E9.Only a guess of course. I too would be interested in knowing if he uses any other compensators like on strings 1 and 7.Always good to see you post Paul.

EDIT: I forgot Paul lowers his 6th string 2 whole tones with a knee and a whole tone with his 4th pedal.Since Franklin guitars only have double lower I guess you can scratch the 6th. <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Bobby Boggs on 14 June 2002 at 12:20 PM.]</p></FONT>

A=440 in most modern music, not anything else. www.waikiki-islanders.com
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<SMALL>Steel players do it without fretting</SMALL>

http://www.waikiki-islanders.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by basilh on 14 June 2002 at 01:25 PM.]</p></FONT>

Yes, Once I find the center of pitch I then tune everything by ear. Major Triads sound the sweetest to my ears with none to minimal beats.

I have return compensators on strings 2,4, 5, 6 & 8 on the E9th. I wasn't refering to return compensators earlier in this thread. I was refering to "tuning compensators" which I use on strings 1, 7, and 9 with certain pedal combinations.

On the C6th tuning compensators are definately needed on strings 4 & 8. Strings 1 (D note) and 9 may need a little tweaking depending on the players pedal setup.

It is my understanding that tuning everything straight up came about because of the desire to play these strings mentioned above with all open and pedals down positions and NOT because JI or tuning the beats out did not sound in tune with the band. This is an important fact the continues to be overlooked.

I am very content using the compensator remedy and it works perfectly well in the studio which is in my opinion the most critical tuning arena any musician faces.

Yes because if the guitar doesn't sound like it's in tune with itself, it sure won't sound like it's in tune with anyone else.