Sound man kills tone

[David Shepack]

Yeah Dave, I was just over at the Sound Guys forum
They said that you need to be out in the audience, to hear what the mix is.
They said that most guitar amplifiers are really loud if they are pointed right at you
They said that high frequencies are directional, low frequencies omni directional.
( go into a restroom, bass will be the loudest ) They said that low frequencies are cumulative, so if all of the instruments have a " full sound", the bass will " add up " and make the band sound muddy.
They said to do my own sound, record it, and compare it with a studio recording. see if the vocals levels are are anywhere near close.
I tried to defend you all, but they just said that musicians insist that it has to be loud to sound good. In actuality, there is some truth to that. Amplifiers and speakers can more easily create the very highs and very lows, with higher wattages. Ears and minds can perceive highs and lows better, at higher volumes.
They said that pro sound guys daily rate is higher than what the whole band makes in a night. They said most bar bands can't afford a real sound man.
They said some other things that I won't repeat.

[chris ivey]

ha ha ha ...exactly some reasons we really 'do' hate bad soundmen (we love 'good' soundguys . gals)

1. it has to be loud to sound good
(no it doesn't)

2.sound guys daily rate is more than what the whole band makes a night.
(yeah..that'll make us like them more!)

[David Shepack]

Someone said "Does a sound man have to have any kind of REAL musical education, background or musical apprenticeship? "
They probably should, a sound system has the capability of doing serious damage to peoples ears.

I also think pedal steel players should be required to try to sing lead while a steeler is sliding between sour notes, so they know what not to do. I had a harmonica player that decided to bend a note during the lead singers big long money note. EWW

I would think that sound men must be on a mission to keep control of the volume of the instruments, so they don't overpower the vocals, because most of the time you can't turn up the vocals because of feed back. We did sound for battle of the bands competitions. All of the bands wanted us to mike everything. Even with the mics muted, you couldn't hear the vocals.

I am ashamed to say that the sad truth is………
I made a " SUCK" control ( pitch shift and modulation)
It could make Vince Gill sound like a cat fight.
All the guys in The Sound Guy Forum want me to make them one………
…………..cause they are mad.

[Bob Hoffnar]

I have found that sound guys that start with the bass drum and are into the subs are hopeless. The same as steel players , bass players or any "musician" that needs to feel there sound to be happy.

[David Shepack]

Chris, I said a " PRO " sound man. It's like his day job. I am thinking many semi pro musicians make way more at their day jobs than they do at gigs.

Even small sound gigs can be an eight hour day, Without the fun of performing, its not always worth what bands can pay.

[David Shepack]

Chris, The "Loudness" button on old car radios, was actually a pre set EQ to compensate for when at lower volumes, the highs and lows diminish. So…. volume can change the sonic dynamics. This is why some people feel that louder sounds better. So yeah, play at a nice level and EQ it.

[Lane Gray]

David, I don't think that sound folks need to be musicians, but they need to be music lovers, listening for the whole sound.
AFAIK, neither Billy Wolf nor Bobby Goodman (a couple of good sound folk from the DC area back when I lived there) could play a lick, but they knew what sounded good, and how to make sure the audience heard that.
But the important bit is that the cat at the board has some sense and some ears.

[chris ivey]

years back many mixing engineers in the studio felt they had to play it back 'really' loud to be able to mix it right.

[Eric Philippsen]

Just my 2 cents after 45 years of gigging.

Re: on stage

- The drummer sets the volume. Yeah, sigh, the guy with Marshall and all the pedals has a hand in that, too. But your drummer is still the main culprit. Listen to him this Saturday night. We've all seen the videos of the Time Jumpers at the Station Inn, right? All those musicians and vocalists on that little stage? Gee, and they can hear each other just fine. Why, look at the drummer. He plays with brushes!
- Band members fight each other on stage because they're often fighting each other for the same tonal space. So, somebody turns up. Then the next guy and the next guy. It just escalates until it's at a stupid level.

Re: soundmen

- You're at their mercy. 90% of them know little-to-nothing about steel guitar except that they don't like it very much because its "volume keeps going up and down." Their solution to that? Turn it way down. And they do, don't they? All the time.
- I use a tube preamp with an XLR send. That's my mic. No placement problems, bleed, or hassle over type of mic.
- If you're not paying the soundman then you've got no say. So, stop worrying about what little or nothing you can do about it. Took me two decades to learn that little truth. If you are paying him, then you tell him what to do. If he doesn't, say goodbye and mean it.

Last, (sorry) on that drummer-thing again. I also play 6-string in a jazz quintet. We have a killer drummer who plays with a light touch and, yes, even pulls out brushes for maybe 1/4 of the tunes we do in an evening. Volume problems? We don't have volume problems. Everything mic'd? No, not at all. In fact, I often just sit back, play and say to myself, "THis is the way it used to be and the way it should be."

[David Shepack]

Chris, " Years back " Most of MY friends had killer " stereos ", My Dad had a big dumb looking console " Hi Fi " with 15 inch speakers. The car radios were less than great.

Nowadays, Car radios are much much better, and iPods with EarBuds are the norm.
So I have been checking my mixes that way. My son's car system was EQed for Hip Hop, which made my tunes sound too bassy. But many of my listeners have been hearing my stuff on laptops.( less than great ) I just have to compromise.

Check out my father/daughter project, on youtube look for SASHEPAPA or

http://youtu.be/b1QgHEC0dhA

Clearly I should have used a C6 neck for this one( I am a beginner on PSG )

[Dick Wood]

Soundmen just need to be more sensitive to our wants and needs and stuff. Now go make me a sandwich.

[David Shepack]

Eric,
I hear ya. Every time a drummer says drums are just plain loud, someone says, " Jazz drummers can play soft"

Re Studio It seems to me that current Country music is bringing the drums up in the mix, My Dad listened to Dixieland Jazz, and he thought my drums were to loud in the mix.

Re Stage. I use the vocals as the constant. Even the great PSG players that never hit sour notes will tell you not to walk all over the vocals. I think PSGs should be used for intros, outros, fills, solos, and as a sweetener. NOT TO RUIN THE VOCALS. The same goes for fiddles. I think this is why steel players think vocalist and sound men hate them.

In Bluegrass…The rule of thumb is, after the first song the sound man should not be touching the board. The musicians control the volume my moving closer, or further from the microphone. I brought that up because PSG players have the same mindset.

[David Shepack]

Hey Dick, Trust me, I didn't spit on that sandwich, and I don't know why your beer is warm. ( just kidding haha )

[David Shepack]

While, I am hijacking the thread…………...

In the studio….Buck Owens put the bass way down in the mix so that he could make the rest of the band louder. He wanted his songs on the radio to be louder than the stuff done in Nashville.

Buck said, " People think I don't like bass "

The drummer on "Together Again " played with a light touch. No distortion on the guitar. I don't need to say anything about Brumley.

[David Shepack]

I was just at The Sound Guy Forum ( again )

They said that " musicians " who blame the sound man, are like people who blame their dog for " foul odors "

Those sound guys are just too funny. ha ha ha ha

[Mike Cass]

"Sound Man Kills Tone"...now there's a news flash.
Im responsible for what comes out of my amp. After that its outta my hands.

[Drew Pierce]

For reasons I don't fully understand, many sound people seem to be defensive by nature and have a tolerance for critical input ranging from low to zero. But most will work with you if you don't trigger a full-on defensive response at the outset. Sadly, if they can't dial up a decent sound within the first couple minutes of the sound check, it's not likely going happen at all and the situation only gets worse the longer it goes on. This can get a show off to a bad start and should be avoided. When I see that developing, I cut my losses and just play the best show I can under the circumstances.

[Dave Hopping]

In Bluegrass…The rule of thumb is, after the first song the sound man should not be touching the board. The musicians control the volume my moving closer, or further from the microphone. I brought that up because PSG players have the same mindset.

Yup.That's why it's called sound reinforcement.Now if players who look like refugees from "Deliverance" can balance half a dozen acoustic instruments(including a BANJO,for Heaven's sake!)as well as complex harmonies with ONE mic and ONE monitor mix,no one in the soundman biz has any excuse for a bad FOH mix.And no one in the live performance biz has any excuse for a bad stage mix.

[David Shepack]

"For reasons I don't fully understand"

Drew, You might have said that to be polite, and I am not pointing a finger. My goal was to try to shed some light. ( yes, and to defend abused sound men )

Imagine a fence, with a sound man on one side and musicians on the other side
( I jump back and forth ).

On one side of the fence, I see wannabes having volume wars, and beating up sound men

On the other side of the fence, I see sound men who are trying to show off their sound system

Balancing on the fence is the audience
IT SOUNDS DIFFERENT IN ALL THREE PLACES.

[Lane Gray]

In Bluegrass…The rule of thumb is, after the first song the sound man should not be touching the board. The musicians control the volume my moving closer, or further from the microphone. I brought that up because PSG players have the same mindset.

Yup.That's why it's called sound reinforcement.Now if players who look like refugees from "Deliverance" can balance half a dozen acoustic instruments(including a BANJO,for Heaven's sake!)as well as complex harmonies with ONE mic and ONE monitor mix,no one in the soundman biz has any excuse for a bad FOH mix.And no one in the live performance biz has any excuse for a bad stage mix.

ONE MIC SOUNDS LIKE CRAP.
That's why, when it made a resurgence, nobody who had to do it in the day joined the resurgence; Bobby Osborne didn't, the Scene didn't, the NGR didn't, J.D. Crowe damn sure didn't.
The mando sounds thin, the guitar sounds thin, the bass is lost in the shuffle of feet. The only things that ends up clear are vox and banjo.
The best thing to happen to bluegrass was multiple channels and individual mics.
But the rest of your point is SPOT ON. Competent 'grassers listen to the monitors and move into and away from the (individual) mics to mix themselves.

Not like I'm opinionated or anything...

[David Shepack]

Not many Bluegrass bands are using the one mic system ( some do at open mic situations ) The ones that do ( Del McCoury ) have a few other mics for solos.

Monitors won't work well with the omni mics. As McCoury said about monitors with the one mic system ………..

" Well………You really cain't with the one mac system "

It needs to be choreographed, and as one Bluegrasser said about bumping into one another with the one mic system……

" OH there IS gonna be a train wreck, and it might could get ugly real quick like"

[Drew Pierce]

Dave, you may have hit the nail on the head. Sound men and musicians often have ego issues that have no place in the mix. I have seen an Alpha male thing develop between them more often than I care to recall. I actually get along very well with nearly all sound techs. I proceed on the assumption that we all want the same thing -- a good sounding show.

Earl Scruggs wrote in his book that before he ever got on stage, he would try to find whoever was running the board and play his banjo in front of them, face-to-face, so they could hear what the banjo sounded like naturally. That way, they would have a better sense of what it should sound like through the PA.

[Brett Lanier]

One thing that bugs me is how often sound men will use band sound check time to dial in the most basic eq settings for mainly vocal monitors. Mise en place!

[Brett Lanier]

Sound men are constantly telling the steel player to Turn Down, and they will make sure you're heard "out front" in the mains. But you are completely at their mercy, and as you said, turning way down kills your tone. One way to fix that is to use a small, lower power amp, preferably a tube amp. You'll get a warm tone at low volumes.

Yes Doug! I've been doing this by having a bandmaster 1x15" mic'ed, then using a larger Mcintosh amp for my stage volume. I don't touch the volume on the bandmaster, that way there's no tug of war with the sound guy.

[Dave Grafe]

For reasons I don't fully understand, many sound people seem to be defensive by nature and have a tolerance for critical input ranging from low to zero

Take a quick glance at the three pages of trash-talk posted here in a couple of days, and recognize that your local club sound tech, regardless of skill level, has to deal with a half-dozen or more "expert" opinions such as these every single night.

If every night you showed up with your steel you had a boatload of people in your face before the sound check even started, because they walked in the door absolutely positive that you sucked. Trade places and tell me, would you be reluctant to hear any more of it? A toilet seat has the better gig...

ONE MIC SOUNDS LIKE CRAP

Aw, Lane, you were doing so good, did you really have to go there? One mic sounds notably - and measurably - BEST, with 100% phase cohesion and associated tonal clarity, which cannot be done with more than one mic, as time delayed signals from multiple sources by their nature generate complex comb filtering across the mix (time and space you know). Unfortunately, few ensembles and even fewer audio engineers have the patience and skill to make it work in a live situation.

You are wrong also in that the Bill Monroe, Flatt and Scruggs, The Osborne Brothers, The Dillards, The Seldom Scene, Jim and Jesse McReynolds, and many other of the greatest bluegrass bands ever, have at one time or another worked extensively with the one-mic system. Those who have abandoned it have done so to accommodate the modern high-volume concert stage paradigm.

At our summer concert series I get a couple of bands each year who still prefer this method, and if their choreography is good and they know how to sing and play there is no better sound. Then again, I learned how to ring out a high-volume, one-mic system a few decades ago and it's just another day at the office here