Be careful who you buy a used pedal steel from.

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 7 Jan 2002 9:26 pm

Even cheesy dealers/retailers.....hate to have their "image" tarnished as they usually see themselves "above the consumers and often even the law". They usually will refuse to make adjustments; negotiate or settle customer complaints...all on the basis "their hands are tied", or it's "beyond their control."
If I were you, I'd avoid any further contact with the subject involved here. I would immediately dump my own emotional involvement and personal/rightful anger......and set out to play a game of CHESS......to WIN! It already appears to be leaning in your favor. Facts are facts; truth is truth!

I'd draft a FORMAL COMPLAINT....in a short, direct, one page cover letter. I would include with it, all details of the alleged transaction. I'd include photo's if at all possible in order to "show" the damage you've suffered. I'd stress WHAT it was exactly that I had purchased; and, in contrast, what was received and for how much money!!!

I would send this with RETURN RECEIPT REQUESTED.....to (1) The Attorney General of said state; (2)Administrator of the Consumer Affairs Division of said state; (3) Approp-riate County District Attorney alleging criminal fraud and "theft by deceit"; (4) U.S. Postal Service alleging "theft" via the US Mails; (5) Fed. Communications Commission alleging fraud and theft by use of telephone lines;(6)Explore what Federal Laws/Agencies might be involved here for even a HEAVIER HAND in your favor; (7)if you lived stateside, your former state congressman, senators and representatives alike; (8) Musicians Union for stated town/state where it occurred; (9) do the same with the local Better Business Bureau; (10) do the same with the 3-largest credit reporting firms in the USA, being certain to include mention of your intent to file both civil and criminal charges against subject; (11)do the same with all of the leading steel guitar dealers in the country (new and used)....and, (12) I'd post in every steel guitar site you can find, all details of this rip-off.
CAUTION: DO NOT SAY ANYTHING that cannot be factually backed up in COURT regardless of how sincerely you might believe it and want to. Constraint is required at this stage.
Surely there must be a local Forumite that would be willing to make a few local telephone calls for you in order to acquire the correct names, spellings, titles, addresses and phone numbers of all key persons mentioned above....in the community where this crime occurred. If I lived there, I'd be happy to do it for you, but I live on the far LEFT COAST-USA.

I'd also send copies to the CONSUMER AFFAIRS REPORTER and/or EDITOR in CHIEF, of ALL of the local radio, television and newspapers for that city/state where this infraction occurred. Leave "YOU" out of all statements. Stress the "local person/firm" that did this criminal act against a poor person in a lowly third world nation. (REMEMBER! Journalists are bleeding heart liberals but occasionally one will rise to HELP THE UNDER-DOG.)

I'd draft the hardest hitting letter of less than one full page; put it aside for 24 hours; re-read it and make any corrections and/or alterations you might deem necessary after that first emotion packed writing. Have it proof read by an uninvolved second party so your letter looks 100% professional and doesn't look like some hateful, deranged individual threw it together during an uncontrollable fit of rage.

It might not win your case, but it just might cause someone in a position to do something about it, to look into it, if for no other reason, than to protect America's relationship with a small 3rd world country and all.

That's WHAT I'd do......but as Bobbe Seymour and a few others would likely tell you about me, I'm really a shy, introverted,
conservative, uncaring, non-communicative, humble old man, sorely lacking in proper social/communicational skills and/or self confidence.
I truly wish you the very best of luck and much success in this most frustrating
confrontation.

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 7 Jan 2002 10:07 pm

Hey Ray,,,
There you go "Braggin Again"

you should write a book. I think you are "GREAT" &
Paul is that "tweed sport coat" to whoever
wears it a "knock off" as well???.

Weird stories,,,,,weird people,,what happened to the normals like Ray and yourself
count me "out" Im weird too. reminds me,,,
I bought a suit with two pair of matching pants,,,,guess what??? I burned a hole in the jacket. "Onward" To Be Continued.

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 7 Jan 2002 10:17 pm

FOR SALE
ONE BROWN TWEED SPORT JACKET "Never Cleaned"
Original, will sacrifice. No reasonable offers refused.This is the "real deal"

Mens sandals go with this Tweed Sport Coat"

"Pink Carnation" optional.

oops Im in the wrong place,,,Im moving this
to USED CLOTHING......

Paul Warnik · Post by **Paul Warnik** » 8 Jan 2002 8:53 am

Jody-you are a very funny guy(like Spitshine Tommy in Goodfellas)-please dont ever leave the forum-The brown tweed sport jacket and sandals are capable of walking away them self to the used clothing section of the forum-guess you have seen GG as much as I have

Craig A Davidson · Post by **Craig A Davidson** » 8 Jan 2002 9:12 am

That guitar looks like a cross between a Sho-Bud and a BMI. Possibly with a couple Emmons parts. The undercarriage looks like an old Pro-11. the endplates and fretboard look like BMI. And the neck resembles an Emmons as do the pedals if they were filed down. It doesn't help much except it doesn't appear to be a Remington to me.

------------------
1985 Emmons push-pull, Session 500, Nashville400, 65 re-issue Fender Twin, Fender Tele

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 8 Jan 2002 10:28 am

Please, If I may hop in:

I think it's not fair what this shop did, but I think it's less fair to rope them to the highest tree.
You never can tell if they made a mistake, they are not really aware of, and if it's no mistake, we aren't the judge and the jury. Please, take legal action instead of a public lynch. Go to the right people, like lawyers and let them fight in a decent way. It's good to tell the forum, but IMHO it's less right to fight a kind of public attack against this shop. I think we have more sence. If this costs to much trouble, go for it to make the guitar work![This message was edited by Johan Jansen on 08 January 2002 at 11:55 AM.]

Steve Stallings · Post by **Steve Stallings** » 8 Jan 2002 10:32 am

I'm sittting here looking at a bunch of Remington pictures and info. The fretboard looks like a Remington. The guitar you have appears to be of pro level construction. Why in the world would someone go to the touble to counterfeit a Remington? They are not exactly a household name, as Herb is one of the smaller builders. (Nothing wrong with that or with the guitars)

It just seems kind of odd.... My guess is that this is indeed a Remington, though may be an earlier model. It looks like you've got some Bill Lawrence pups. That is not standard on Remingtons at present. He uses George L pups...at least that is what is on each of the four guitars I have pictures of.

Regardless, you appear to have a nice pro level guitar. I'd guess that it will serve you well once it is set up.

------------------
Steve Stallings
Bremond, Texas

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 8 Jan 2002 11:05 am

Johan, you've a right to voice your opinion and I love what I've heard of your playing. However I strongly disagree with your point of view. Nobody's "lynching" or playing judge and jury here. Peter has a serious problem, he asked for advice and we're just trying to offer him ideas. [This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 08 January 2002 at 11:13 AM.]

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 8 Jan 2002 11:07 am

Jim, I don't want to insult anyone, so I delete that word!
Thanks

JJ

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 8 Jan 2002 11:12 am

Thanks Johan, we'll forget about it.

Ed Naylor · Post by **Ed Naylor** » 8 Jan 2002 11:35 am

Maybe this will solve the question. The Guitar was built pre 1993. This appears to be the guitar I took on trade around1998. I soldit and got it back on a New Fessenden in 2000. I sold it again in Feb 2000 but the customer wanted a couple more pedals. This accounts for the "Generic" pedals. I also changed the Pickup to a Lawrence. It was a tripleR/L changer and sounded great. How it got from the the customer I sold it to and ended up at Gruhn I have no clue. Any problem with that guitar I am confident is minor. Ed Naylor Steel Guitar Works

Ed Naylor · Post by **Ed Naylor** » 8 Jan 2002 2:14 pm

I just got an E-Mail reply from Peter and I believe we can solve the problem.Since I sold the guitar it has been traded a couple times. Since I have no idea what setup was made I can only assume it is out of a normal setup. I have talked to Mr Gruhn and told him that I should have any parts needed to change to whatever tuning and setup he wants. Unfortunately Steel pla yers have a vast array of setups and tunings plus some are Short,Tall, Skinny etc.After reading the list of changes needed I will send them at no charge. I just want to see this "NEW" player up and running.Ed

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 8 Jan 2002 2:17 pm

Way to go Ed, that's a very nice gesture!

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 8 Jan 2002 8:50 pm

Hey Ed Naylor,
You are the man. What a gesture!!! God bless
you. In a way - such a small sacrafice, but
yet, a bigger act, that really addresses what
humanity & 'brotherhood' are all about... hat's off to you Ed.

ChipsAhoy

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 8 Jan 2002 9:29 pm

Ed, thank you for the gesture.

But I am not 100% sure what you are going to send.

99.5% of the repair list consists of moving back the existing materials to its original position as well as taking the gunge out of the changer by taking it off and cleaning it.

I found a repairman and he just told me, for instance, that pedal 8 should be taken off. This will give us the parts to fix pedal 1. Plus it will give us back the missing stop for RKL, which was in pedal 1. This is just one example. The list is longer.

We just have to spend a lot of time and money on labor, not parts.

When you say you will send changes at no charge, does it mean you will come to South Africa to do the long list of changes?

That would be great!
Peter

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 8 Jan 2002 9:30 pm

Bump

[This message was edited by Jody Carver on 08 January 2002 at 09:35 PM.]

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 8 Jan 2002 9:50 pm

Ed, I did not mean to sound ungrateful, sorry.
I sent Mr Gruhn a quote from my repairman. I just want to avoid any confusion about the costs.

I am not going to set up the guitar to MY specifications. This will not be a custom job. I just need the guitar to be brought back to the normal Universal tuning. With everything working properly.

When we start the repairs, I will be contact you should we encounter any missing or broken parts.

Thanks again for your wonderful gesture!

Peter

Ed Naylor · Post by **Ed Naylor** » 9 Jan 2002 7:25 am

Peter- I don't beleive the problem is as bad as you think.Take these steps#1. Decide what tuning you will use.#2 Before making any major changes in the "undercarriage" put all the "Rods" where you want them.#3 make sure you have "Clearance" etween the Nylon and the pulling finger. #4DO NOT DISSAMBLE THE CHANGER>"Flush" out the old "Residue" with mineral spirits etc then "RELUBE" with a goodlubricant. After you have done this you will find that there will only be minor changes such as moving a Knee Lever a few inches. Keep in touch. Ed

Ed Naylor · Post by **Ed Naylor** » 9 Jan 2002 10:12 am

Peter- I really want to see you get the problem solved.I dug back thru my files and found the guitar was set up to the Carter E9/B6 7 floor 5Knee arrangement except I added the 8 pedal to drop 3-6-10 fromG# to G. I shipped the guitar2/23/00. The only time I heard from the buyer was a call saying "It plays a little hard" But he also said he played it in his stocking feet.!!!!!!!Hang in there we will get you straightened out. ED

Rusty Hurse · Post by **Rusty Hurse** » 10 Jan 2002 6:38 am

Maybe Bobbe Seymoure and his new bride who both fly could fly to South Africa on their honeymoon and repair your guitar or bring you a new one and then everyone would be happy.

Tom Gorr · Post by **Tom Gorr** » 12 Jan 2002 2:40 pm

If you did not get a Remington, as expected, I would me severely miffed and would use everything in my means to get "justly compensated".

With that caveat - it is my view that whenever dealing with "used", and "sight unseen", there is an ever-present danger of a mismatch between expectation, representation, and reality. "Reality" is a little on the subjective side as it is.

Note that all machines need a mechanic sooner or later. In your circumstance - more sooner than later - but in any case - eventually.
Consider that a steel guitar player has the unique opportunity to double as mechanic/musician. Consider the $250 offer as payment for a self-directed education in Pedal Steel Guitar Setup and Repair. You could purchase all the information and parts you need with that amount, and the forum advice comes free.

Your guitar (and case) appears very nice to me, (better than what I started with when I bought "used in excellent condition") although pictures don't always show the truth.

The guitar appears to be "clean" from the point of view that there appears to be no major damage to the finish. I understand that the changer is not "clean". It will never be that way anyway.(See "graphite" topic/post)

I admit I have a pet peeve about crooked rods and sloppy undercarriages. Plan out your copedant and contact some experts here on the forum for a rodding strategy to keep the undercarriage "clean" and the action right. You may need to buy some extra rods from your local aluminum retailer.

If you decide to take on the challenge of fixing your guitar yourself (and get paid US$250 for it), I am sure that you will look back and appreciate the experience. You will never need a mechanic again and you can take pride in the knowledge that you have gained.

There are thousands here on the forum to offer moral support and assistance as you need it.

Good luck.

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 14 Jan 2002 8:08 pm

.[This message was edited by Peter on 15 January 2002 at 12:15 PM.]

Jerry Roller · Post by **Jerry Roller** » 14 Jan 2002 8:42 pm

I purchased a '67 Emmons D10 from forumite Larry Behm before I even knew who he was. It is a fabulous sounding guitar and was a great deal. I have since sold that guitar to John Robel. Now John has a guitar to be very proud of! Sometime later I bought another 67 Emmons D10 on the forum offered by Junior Wilson who also had a Dobro listed on the same thread. I bought the Emmons and it is a great guitar so I bought the Dobro and it is a beauty. The Dobro was absolutely as brand new! I have never bought anything from a forumite that I was not very pleased with. Jerry [This message was edited by Jerry Roller on 14 January 2002 at 09:05 PM.]

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 15 Jan 2002 9:26 am

Hi Ed Naylor (and others), thank you for your offer to help with the repair and parts for the Remington S12.

We have moved all pedals and kneelevers to their original position. No problem. We have taken all the stiffness out of the cross shafts, so they move freely now with no resistance at all.

We want to take off the changer assembly as ONE UNIT and give it a good clean and rinse it out. Then we'll lubricate it again. We cannot do this whilst the changer is on the guitar because it will mess up the wood.

Now, we are not sure HOW to take the assembly out. (the strings are off already).
Could you please give us an EXACT SEQUENCE how to take the changer off? We do NOT want to disassemble the changer.
For instance : do we disconnect the springs first? (We do not want to screw off the springs. We want to keep the tensions as they are). Or must we remove the aluminium neck? How do we do that? We dont know where all the relevant screws are, so please give us an exact description if you dont mind. Or should we just take the whole endplate off including the changer?

Ed, there is also one incorrect roller nut on string 8. It is a lot smaller than the others, so it rattles when playing. Someone stuck a matchstick underneath to "fix" it. Do you have the CORRECT roller nut? Or must ALL rollers be replaced at once to maintain the same consistent hight?

And Ed, we are also short of one metal block that holds the nylon bush for the cross shaft. It is the block that sits underneath the armrest and is opposite the nylon bearing mounted on the front apron. Do you have a spare original block including the nylon bush?

In addition there are two GOTOH tuner keys on string 2 and 3 that are faulty and not working properly. Do you have any spare ones? Keep in mind that there are left and right versions of the tuner keys. These are for string 2 and 3. They must be identical GOTOH tuners, not another brand.

Do you have the original stop for the LKL lever? This stop also holds the nylon bush for the cross shaft. So we would need that bush as well. There are 2 versions of this stop: a left and a right one. This is for LKL. We can then remove the makeshift stop.

I hope I am not asking too much.

Peter den Hartogh

Ed Naylor · Post by **Ed Naylor** » 15 Jan 2002 11:47 am

Peter- I have been under the weather for a few days but I think I have everything together that you need. I must say though > DO NOT DISSAMBLE THE CHANGER> Add a degreaser of some type, lube it up and it should be OK> At least try that and maybe in a couple weeks "Reclean and Re Lube" if needed. ED