The Steel Guitar Forum

Ray ---

Regarding, your original post about a round robin jam setting being a wild tangle of clashing sound, ----- well that is pretty typical.

the Tempered stuff apply's to a Pedal Steel in a Studio Setting where the others get in tune to an acoustic piano, Tuned to "A" 440 - 441 .

Normal Guitars and Basses tune to "E" and the typical tuners all are based on E,

Chromatic tuners are able to to do the Cents temperament, Cents are a 1/2 tone divided by 100 and are a micro amount of a 1/2 tone.

To the ear , it is nearly un noticeable similar to tuning from one string to another and hearing the beats change slightly.

To the finite ear of a high quality microphone (Magnifying glass) and a sharp engineer listening under completely quiet conditions , usually with high end loudspeakers --
all of the tiny little sounds can be heard. Then they diasect the overall into tracks and compare them to one another , etc etc.

It has been proven many times by professional recording artist's that the tempered tuning makes for more intune action in the studio against other instruments. Most of us simply follow the lead of the pros.

My initial point stands -- The instrument is designed to play out of tune, the players job is to get it to play in tune.


The Non Pedal side of this is a completely different animal, typically we tune straight across, to straight up, or by ear , and some of the advanced pros do temper their tunings , ala John Ely , shown on his web sight and Cindy Cashdollar for quick examples. Both are experienced studio musicians and both have played in large formatt groups with pianos - strings and horn s etc.

I am a bit embarrased to show you this, but here goes....

Two weeks ago, I rounded up the remaining living members of my fathers old band.

The combined age on stage was about 475 years..

Ok, so, we are out of tune, out of time, had been drinking too much, but..........

it was still fun, and the hall was full of people who came to see THE SILVER ACE band after about 30 years.....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7Y8Z2yCMEw

It's my answer to playing in tune....

PS.. If you look from MORE VIDEOS FROM the person who posted this, you will see some good steel playing from the daytime steel guitar festival that I had at the beginning of April...

I have read through the post here, trying to understand exactly what all of this is about. I must confess Ray is talking about the jams at my place. I think the first thing to remember is the fact that this is a jam/practice session/learning experience/and what is supposed to be generally a good time. People show up from all over the Portland area with widely varied experience levels, and musical taste. Generally we have people playing and singing all different songs, that people may or may not be familiar with, and playing on instruments and through amplifiers that most people are not familiar with. The point is to have a good time, play some music, possibly learn something, and generally enjoy each other's company. I will be the first to admit that not everything works perfectly every time. I'm also probably one of the least experienced musicians in the group, so we do kind of rely on the more experienced members for some guidance. There are people playing guitars, lap steels, pedal steels, bass guitar, sometimes drums, violins, etc. most of the time we're playing material that very few are familiar with, so we are following along the best we can. The tuning discussion has come up several times, and mostly we never seem to have everyone tune at the same time, and might add there seems to be several different theories on how to tune. There is also the issue of several instruments playing at the same time sometimes, like I said the operative word is "Jam" some things work well, sometimes things don't work perfectly. Some people come back several times, some folks only show up once, that's kind of the way it works I guess. It would be nice if some of the more experienced members could maybe guide us through a better way to set this up so it could work more smoothly. I know there are sound issues, PA issues, level issues, tuning issues, etc. I do work to make this the best I can for everyone, but sometimes not everything is perfect. I'm going to include a couple of short video clips taken at our New Year's gathering so everyone can see what this is about, I know it's not exactly the night Ray is referring to but the principle is generally the same on most nights. So anyway here is what happens listen at your own risk.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mKW3L5BtXE


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQ7yT_GncbA

Bob, You are a Steel Man among steel men in this area. The Steel intensive environment you have provided for local players is unmatched anywhere, as far as I know.
Maybe limit entry to your home to those who appreciate your hospitality???...
... a Secret Handshake???

Ray Montee wrote:But.......

I can't help but wonder if Jeff's formula for tuning out of tune in order to have an in tune steel guitar holds true to all guitars.

No it does not.

Next question?

I attend a regular jam at a friend's house that often sounds bad. We constantly help each other to improve the sound, though. Tuning is only one aspect and, let's face it, some people have tin ears. To me, the social experience of playing with these guys is more important than the tuning.

Good steel players are often overly sensitive to tuning issues. It can ruin your appreciation of music. One time I went to see a very popular singer and every note she sang sounded flat to me - all by the same amount! The audience loved her. Looking back, I think that *I* was the one who was out of tune.

When I was a young pot smoker, I sometimes suffered from a malady that I call stoned ear. I could not get my guitar to sound in tune. The meter said it was in tune, my bandmates said it was in tune, but it sounded out to me. It was horrible. That's one of the reasons that I don't smoke pot anymore.

That concludes this thread then.......

Ray's been smoking to much wacky backy....

I'm happy that Bob responded. At no time did I mention anyone's name, the location, the dates/times or anything else that would point to Bob Muller or his 'gatherings'.

Aside from Bob being one of the most genuine people that I have ever met, he certainly is one of the most generous, not only donating his personal time but graciously providing FREE of any COST, each and every piece of musical equipment in his home. This is from a simple electrical cord to one of his many exceptionally fine SHO-Bud or Emmons' guitars.

Bob's music room is one of the finest I've ever visited. Not only is it always impeccably neat and clean but the atmosphere is highly conducive to creative musical thought.

Everything Bob mentioned is true. There are not enough words within my vocabulary to describe the true admiration for this man.

I've always maintained that anyone in the Portland Metro area that has failed to take advantage of this rare opportunity has sadly short=changed themselves.

Whether you're a fledgling beginner, an intermediate or advanced player, you'll find yourself right at home at Bob's GATHERINGS.

If nothing else, you're certain to meet some of the nicest musically inclined people in the world. Like Larry Behm has always attempted to promote with his random steel jams is the spirit of brotherhood.

Hope to see you there!

Good luck with that.

So which is it? Is it this:

A couple of weeks ago I attended a steel jam of sorts... The clash of out-of-tune tones was an unbearable bunch of racket...

Now to my knowledge, not a single one in the room attempted to tune accurately with the band or anyone else in the room. The din was unbearable...

This never used to be the problem until everyone got their own electronic tuner and because they were in tine with themselves, all seem to be blithely happy with themselves.

Or this?

...the atmosphere is highly conducive to creative musical thought....

...anyone in the Portland Metro area that has failed to take advantage of this rare opportunity has sadly short=changed themselves.

you're certain to meet some of the nicest musically inclined people in the world

Because it can't be both, and trying to have it both ways is insulting to everyone's intelligence, as if nobody had read the earlier posts.

Is tuning important? Yes. Is it AS important at an informal setting such as a "jam" as it is at a live gig or a studio gig? Maybe not.

Could have been different tuning methods used by different players. I bet if everyone tuned straight up on their electronic tuners, which I'm betting the band did, then everyone would have been much more in tune.

Many times, a well-tuned guitar is simply played so it sounds out of tune, and that's what I'm mostly hearing in the posted examples. Tuning a guitar is one thing, and playing in tune is quite another.

It's important to learn the difference, and to realize that a well-tuned guitar really guarantees nothing. If you'r not listening to yourself and the tonal center, and making constant adjustments...from one microsecond to anonther, you will fail to play in tune (regardless of what your expensive tuner says).

I wish that weren't true, but it is, nevertheless.

'Ya gotta learn, guys, and just buying stuff (whether it's a fancy guitar, a "holy grail" amp, or a tuner) really won't help you much.

Ain't that the truth

Ray Montee wrote:I'm happy that Bob responded. At no time did I mention anyone's name, the location, the dates/times or anything else that would point to Bob Muller or his 'gatherings'.

So Ray am I completely incorrect here or is the photo of the above Jam not what you are speaking of?? I know you quit playing after about three songs, and never played again the rest of the night. So I have to assume that this may be what you are referring to possibly. Again I will confess to being only an amateur player, and I am sure not up to the standards of a professional player. I want to reaffirm that this is a practice jam and learning session for any local players that wish to participate. I posted examples of one of the Jams in the post above, and judging from the comments that were left you must be absolutely correct that it sounds terribly bad. However to me it doesn't sound that bad, it's something I enjoy doing, and I invite anyone who wants to participate and have fun, to continue coming. For those whose ears are truly offended, sorry you had to hear this, please save your ears and don't listen again.

Bob Muller wrote:I'm going to include a couple of short video clips taken at our New Year's gathering so everyone can see what this is about, I know it's not exactly the night Ray is referring to but the principle is generally the same on most nights. So anyway here is what happens listen at your own risk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mKW3L5BtXE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQ7yT_GncbA

Those both sound really good to me.

I agree with b0b, I have watched and it looked like a good get together and well organised, and sounded OK to me. Keep Up the meetings and jams Mr Muller.

Donny Hinson wrote:Many times, a well-tuned guitar is simply played so it sounds out of tune, and that's what I'm mostly hearing in the posted examples. Tuning a guitar is one thing, and playing in tune is quite another.

It's important to learn the difference, and to realize that a well-tuned guitar really guarantees nothing. If you'r not listening to yourself and the tonal center, and making constant adjustments...from one microsecond to anonther, you will fail to play in tune (regardless of what your expensive tuner says).

I wish that weren't true, but it is, nevertheless.

'Ya gotta learn, guys, and just buying stuff (whether it's a fancy guitar, a "holy grail" amp, or a tuner) really won't help you much.

That too.

Bob Muller wrote:I have read through the post here, trying to understand exactly what all of this is about. I must confess Ray is talking about the jams at my place. I think the first thing to remember is the fact that this is a jam/practice session/learning experience/and what is supposed to be generally a good time. People show up from all over the Portland area with widely varied experience levels, and musical taste. Generally we have people playing and singing all different songs, that people may or may not be familiar with, and playing on instruments and through amplifiers that most people are not familiar with. The point is to have a good time, play some music, possibly learn something, and generally enjoy each other's company. I will be the first to admit that not everything works perfectly every time. I'm also probably one of the least experienced musicians in the group, so we do kind of rely on the more experienced members for some guidance. There are people playing guitars, lap steels, pedal steels, bass guitar, sometimes drums, violins, etc. most of the time we're playing material that very few are familiar with, so we are following along the best we can. The tuning discussion has come up several times, and mostly we never seem to have everyone tune at the same time, and might add there seems to be several different theories on how to tune. There is also the issue of several instruments playing at the same time sometimes, like I said the operative word is "Jam" some things work well, sometimes things don't work perfectly. Some people come back several times, some folks only show up once, that's kind of the way it works I guess. It would be nice if some of the more experienced members could maybe guide us through a better way to set this up so it could work more smoothly. I know there are sound issues, PA issues, level issues, tuning issues, etc. I do work to make this the best I can for everyone, but sometimes not everything is perfect.

Sounds like you set up a fun time of steel guitar fellowship. These things should be opportunities to learn and build relationships. Criticisms are unnecessary.

It would be great to be able to attend this kind of get-together. I wish there was something like that within reasonable driving distance of me. You guys are very fortunate to be able to do this.

I guess yesterday was just a bad day for me, a bit like the fire hydrant hiding out in the dog park, what was I thinking?? I have been having a Jam at my place for several years now, this has been mostly a richly rewarding experience for me. I get to meet the best players in the area, get to see how people perform and play their music right in my very own music room. There have been many players who have shown up with different abilities, and ways of playing, and tuning, etc. This is mostly been a very rewarding experience for everyone. People drive here from all over the area to contribute whatever they can to making this a great experience for everyone. It is sometimes a challenge to try and match up just the right mix of playing, visiting, learning, and just having fun to keep everything going in a positive direction. Sometimes everything works perfectly and it seems to be a very positive experience for everyone. Sometimes things go a bit south, at that point I'm not quite sure how to turn it around sometimes but I do the best I can. I read comments in the last few days about being a steel guitar wanna-be, to things like can't you hear how bad you really sound. Anyway the whole point of the Jam is to provide a place for everyone can get together, share ideas, stories, and knowledge. I certainly hope we can continue to do this in the future, maybe someday we will all be better players because of this experience. I'm always open to new ideas on how to improve this experience for everyone. If someone is working on a new song or a new technique, is always helpful for others to pitch in and give advice. This Jam was basically founded by Ray in the first place, we will always be extremely indebted to him for his help and advice. I also would like to thank all the other longtime players in the Portland area who have helped out with this endeavor, this would not work without the support of all the players who have participated. I'm still looking for ways to refine the process and make it better, please be patient.

I don't know if you knew Eric West, Bob. I did not, except through the forum. Frankly, I did not like him much. But I did tremendously enjoy his insights on certain people. In fact he made a couple of long posts on the subject that he chose to delete after a couple of hours. Fortunately I saved them before he ditched them. They make for very entertaining reading and provide the sort of info that would help you to realize that it was only a matter of time before you became the latest 'pedal stomping torn jean long haired' disgrace who is responsible for this person's failed life.
(I think I've seen pics of you and I think I recall that your hair & clothes don't fit this demented rave but.....)

Sounds like you are doing a fine thing out there and it sounds like there are good people who do appreciate and enjoy it. Living a good life is about getting rid of unnecessary junk that drags you down. Hope you can succeed.
Good luck!

Jon, thanks for the very interesting history lesson, I did not realize the extent to which all of This has happened before. All necessary preventative measures will be taken to keep this from happening in the future. Thanks again.

I would suggest that everyone throw away his electronic tuner and tune by ear. If you're playing in G, for instance, one guy should tune his instrument to that and then continually sound a G chord, to which all the other instruments should tune. Remember that orchestras played for centuries without electronic tuners, and no-one knows exactly to what pitch they tuned hundreds of years ago.

One problem is that there are a lot of musicians who are tone deaf, and can't tell when they're in tune. Some musicians have an absolutely accurate tone memory. There was an orchestra leader in England who challenged a speeding ticket on the basis that he could tell the speed of his car by the pitch of the engine in top gear. He demonstrated his ability and won his case. I'm told that Bing Crosby had a very astute ear for pitch and was known to recognise anyone in the band playing out of tune. His response was to change the words of what he was singing to incorporate such things as "some bastard on the fiddle is flat", and, one-by-one, the members of the orchestra would notice what he was singing and the session would come to a standstill amid much laughter.

Instruments without frets require a lot more diligence to keep in tune that those that have frets. Anyone can play a mandolin in tune, but the fiddle, which has the same tuning, requires a lot more talent. Likewise, the steel guitar has no frets to establish the exact note ...it's all in the hands of the player... and the pedal steel player needs to pay even more attention because he needs to push pedals all the way to the note that he wants. There's a temptation to push the pedals slightly by accident, which will throw everything out. Motorists do that with the clutch pedal: they put a little weight on it and it makes the clutch slip: not enough for them to notice, but enough to wear out the clutch plates faster.

Alan Brookes wrote:I would suggest that everyone throw away his electronic tuner and tune by ear. If you're playing in G, for instance, one guy should tune his instrument to that and then continually sound a G chord, to which all the other instruments should tune. Remember that orchestras played for centuries without electronic tuners, and no-one knows exactly to what pitch they tuned hundreds of years ago.

We also don't know if they played in tune or not.

Seriously, Alan, this is a totally impractical idea. A room full of steel guitars trying to tune to a G chord by ear? I'd walk out.

The way Jeff Newman told me and others was:

He sat in on countless Nashville studio sessions, during the before and after times he would take his electronic tuner out and measure all of the strings and pedals of numerous known players after they had Tuned Up By Ear - Fork and all of the Other Organic Proven Methods.

This is how he developed the Electronic Chromatic + & - Cents formulas. They are all measurements of the view points contained in this thread subject.

In essence it is a form of tuning by Ear.

The Jeffran Formulas are a Short Cut to a Consistent standard for your particular guitar that can be edited by ear or by digital settings.
This is why thousands of players and tuner manufacturers have added this means to their bag of tricks. It Works !

The other main and most obvious reason is to be able to tune up in a noisy environment such as a round robin jam session or band stand.

Once your instrument is tuned up to it's self as close as possible, it is then back to the player's ability to play in tune with with the other tracks - players.