The Steel Guitar Forum

Try charting Autumn Leaves using both major and relative minor tonic anchors. It works real well as every 4 bars is one or the other until the tag. That's tricky. Not sure what to do there.

Back to "Mary Jane" for a second:

When you write a Nashville number chart, you're looking for the mathematical structure of the song.

First task is determining what the root note is. Then you're looking for chords that comprise the harmonized scale tones as previously discussed by others: 1-2m-3m-4-5-6m-7dim-1.

I would vote for the song being in the Key of C, verse and bridge numbered as follows:

Am-G-D-Am
6m-5-2-6m

Bridge:
Em-A
3m-6 (Major)

The odd thing is that the song never goes to the root chord of C.

So you could also view it as a song in the key of D:

Am-G-D-Am
5m-4-1-5m

Bridge:
Em-A
2m-5

At least in D you do hear the root chord. You do have that slightly unusual 5m. But a 5m is very close to a 1dom7 chord, and does get used now and then in songs, so no laws broken there.

For me, either analysis would be acceptable, and hew pretty closely to the harmonized major scale which is where you'll find most chords, especially in simple country, folk and rock songs.

If someone charted this tune as 1m-b7-4-1m, I'd rewrite it on the spot to make more musical sense to me and my way of thinking.

It's (the NNS) just a tool. Use it how it works for YOU. I suspect that 90% of charts are written by musicians to use for themselves.

John makes a good point there of playing within the scale but never using the root of it.Still wouldn't know which key to chart it in though.So Larry has got it right .Just to chart it in how you can understand it.I think?

When you write a Nashville number chart, you're looking for the mathematical structure of the song.

If one is truly looking for the mathematical structure of the song, I think it pays to remember that each of the 12 correct ways to number the chords to any 12-tone chord progression is mathematically isomorphic to any other - this means they are exactly the same, apart from a relabeling. The only mathematical invariant is the set of intervals. In this sense, there is no real structural or mathematical difference between any of them.

So I think numbering chords comes down to doing at least one of two things:

1. Making some sort of logical sense [to 'you', editorially speaking] of the tune musically.

2. Communicating the structure of the tune to someone else in a way they can understand easily and quickly.

I think what makes sense depends, to a large degree, on the musical culture in which one lives. I think it's pretty clear, even by the diversity stated on this thread, that there are different ways to look at it.

In that light, here's yet another way to think about numbering. The example is "So What" by Miles Davis.

The sheet music is written in the key of C. Most jazzers I know refer to it as "D Dorian". It has a definite D-Dorian minor modal feel to it, which is distinguished from the typical Western (Aeolian) minor by the major 6th tone in the scale instead of the b6th tone of Aeolian. If, instead, one viewed the minor home chord (D) as a 6m, then the proper key should be F. But I doubt anybody would argue that Miles notated it incorrectly.

In general, I think how the tune sounds affects what the key signature should be. If a song has a definite modal minor (e.g., Dorian) feel with a particular tonic as root, I don't think it's 'wrong' to notate it as, let's say, "D modal", and in that case the technical key signature would be one whole step below (in this case, C).

If I followed this same reasoning for the Petty tune (which I hear very much as an A Dorian modal type of tune on the verses), then it would strike me as reasonable to write the key as G. The reason the song sounds A Dorian to me is the presence of the F# (maj6th tone) instead of the F (b6th tone) as 6th note choices. Listen to the solo - it feels Dorian to me, not Aeolian. But most rockers I know would label the Am as 1, if they bothered to label it at all (What's the best way to get a guitar player to turn down? Put sheet music in front of him. Rim shot, please.)

Of course, when in Rome.

What Key for Sweet Home Alabama and Cocaine ?

D for Sweet Home (1 b7 4 4)

E for Cocaine (1 b7 1 b7)

original Skynyrd and Clapton keys

(is this a trick question????)

Why not G for sweet home and G for Cocaine. If you look at the scale, the root is G. 5,4 1 and 6,5,4,3 (no thirds)
Sorry I put 2 meant 3

Larry you are of course right and yes it is a trick question. Who would be the brave soul to call G for the key on these tunes at the VFW on Sat. night?

I discussed that tune on my earlier post on the first page - it was beat to death on a thread similar to this one some time ago.

I don't know a rocker who would call the key G, but every piece of sheet music I've seen is keyed in G.

To me, there is sometimes a conflict about what is the "home chord" (to me, that is clearly D in SHA) vs. what makes it easier to communicate to the musicians involved. If a band or orchestra was reading the sheet music to play SHA, "When in Rome" would dictate G because any sheet music I've seen was keyed G. Personally, I've never seen anybody sight-read SHA. It's rock and roll, man - "Sweet Home Alabama" - if they state a key at all, it's D, and away you go. I've also never played with anybody who changed the key to something besides D.

Sorry Dave. I should have read every post but the point is not all is obvious.

Great thread...

My take on "southern rock" flavored progressions like Sweet Home Alabama is that they're based on the D mixolyidian scale, D E F# G A B C D instead of the D major scale. The harmony then includes the C major chord.

On minor key songs, I tend to lean toward charting in the relative major key, although sometimes it's easier to follow a "1m" based chart.

Trying to shoehorn every single progression into the number system in a logical way can be tricky with secondary dominants, temporary key changes, songs with no root, and so on. But almost any song can be charted relatively easily to be understood by all the players in a band or session.
The biggest advantage to me in the number system is that you can train your ear to hear chords as numbers as they're going by on the fly, and thereby learn songs on the bandstand, or play right along while sitting in or at a session. Any licks or phrases can be remembered and accessed by their "numerical postion".
Best thing since sliced anything.

I've just been charting Russ Hicks' version of Wayfaring Stranger. The song is in Bm but the chart goes:

6- 2- 6- 6- 2- 2- 3/3sus 3
etc, etc.

Is that right Russ!?

Paul, here's the full NNS chart, it's in the key of D, time sig of slow 4/4 (well, really it's in 2/4, but less measures to write out in 4/4, pardon my shortcut!):

VS
Bm % Em Bm

Bm % Em Bm

BR
G D G/D F#sus/F#

NASHVILLE NUMBERS

VS
6m % 2m 6m

6m % 2m 6m

BR
4 1 4/1 3sus/3

If you always call the first chord the 1, then it becomes a hash of 1m, 4m, etc. I argue it's best to find a logical root around which all the chords make harmonic sense, and adhere to the harmonized major scale.

Brian McGaughey wrote:so anytime a bar has more than one chord, it's got a square drawn around it?

Not always. The most common way to write a bar with multiple chords is by underlining them or enclosing them in parentheses. The former seems to appear most often. The most common use I've seen for a square is to denote a 2/4 bar. Some will merely forgo that in favor of writing "2/4" in front of the bar in question. Of course, there are many exceptions, but this has been my experience in sessions.

Kyle E wrote:The most common way to write a bar with multiple chords is by underlining them or enclosing them in parentheses.

Could be. I've always used parentheses and that works well if you use a word processor to write charts. When I use Excel I'll just put the measure in a cell and outline the cell, creating a box.

That's just the way Charlie McCoy writes 'em. I don't think there's any right and wrong -- only WHAT WORKS. If the player reads it correctly . . . it works. He writes them by hand and that works fine too.

Larry, that's so true..so many different ways to write them. Seems like every circle has their nuances (my favorite is the "dorito"-- an upside down triangle drawn around the chord to show a hard stop).

Joey, in addition to what was stated above about readability, when multiple verses are written out it helps with musicians' communication and fixes. Also, if you wanted to add a band lick on only one of those verses, it's easier to write and follow that instruction.

btw, I am also a "relative major" fan. I often re-write my chart if there's time. Makes more sense harmonically to me.

Mike Perlowin states in his book "There is a point where all the information in this book just becomes abstract theory and ceases to have any practical value. Nowhere is this more true than in this lesson..... Some will use everything written here, some will use none of it at all. I suggest you all read through the whole lesson and learn from it whatever you feel is right for your style of playing".
The topic of the lesson is all of the different scales. My mind tends to think in terms of the Ionian scale (rel minor key in this discussion). Others may be comfortable with the Dorian scale (minor as tonic). Each of the scales have a place, but like I said, my mind thinks Ionian.

I’ve known and relied on my own variation of the NNS for years, though I have to admit I seldom write out a chart for someone else’s use. I recommend that the person who’s going to be reading it should be the one to write it out, and this eliminates the confusion of different variations and interpretations of a specific number system. Of course if the person has a question as to what chord is being played, I would be happy to offer my opinion or if I were the songwriter I’d know for sure. But then again – if there’s a producer involved, they might want to change some chords in the song.

I can’t imagine a realistic scenario where I would be writing out a chart for a professional studio player to use. I find this to be an interesting and educational topic, but how often would any of us find ourselves in the position of needing to write out a song using the NNS in an error-free format so a professional would want to and be able to use it immediately?

I typically only write out a number chart as a shortcut for myself to use, and that’s only when I’ll be playing a gig where the song list has a lot of songs I’m not familiar with. (And that would be a very rare occurrence)
So it doesn’t matter if anyone else can understand the chart immediately – it’s only for me – if it helps me to play without making a mistake, then it’s the right system for me.

If the band is going to play a song in an unusual key, Sweet Home Alabama in something other than D – C – G, House of the Rising Sun in something other than Am as the 1st chord, Pretty Woman in something other than “A” meaning the starting signature riff is in something other than “E” – then I’ll simply make myself a clear note explaining… Pretty Woman key of “G” – starts in “D” (I may write out the chords to the Bridge section, just so I don’t forget and default to the original key’s progression)

Sometimes – I find the number system useful in the rare occasion when if I have to communicate with a fill-in player across the stage who doesn’t know all the material - and in that instance I’ll hold up fingers to let them know of the chord changes. But I certainly wouldn’t try to relay the chord changes by my holding up fingers method for a song like House of the Rising Sun. If the player doesn’t know the song already, either have them lay out or don’t do the song until they learn it.

I prefer to talk to the band members in advance, rather than trust they can see I’m holding up 3 fingers for the key of “A” or 4 fingers for the 4 chord in the key.
I think an important example of this is “I Fall to Pieces”
If it’s a band I’m sitting in with for the first time and someone tells me it’s in the key of “C” – I want to make sure they mean the key of the song is “C” and the walk up to the first chord played in the song is F. Sometimes “good” musicians think the 1st chord of the song is the key of the song, so when they say “C” I want to make sure if that’s the first chord of the song or the key of the song. Communication is the important thing to make sure everyone is on the same page.

-- Marc

www.pedalsteelguitarmusic.com