The Steel Guitar Forum

Mike,
I think you did us all proud. Not easy going into a situation where you know the deck is already stacked against you. You handled it first class, you da man.

Sorry Mike, I guess I missed reading that comment. You're right, it's an awful thing to say to anyone. I guess you just have to consider the source.

The guy sounds like a mean spirited individual to me, but what goes around, comes around.

Cheers. JO.

The part of this conductor's attitude that mystifies me is this:

He also said that nobody would ever hire me, I would never get any gigs playing with any orchestra, and that I am wasting my tine [sic] trying to play classical music, and I should give it up and go back to playing country.

I think it's reasonable to say, "I don't like this, I won't hire you." But such a sweeping statement purporting to speak for all conductors and orchestras is beyond arrogant, even in a field known for arrogance.

I think your attitude is right on. It's critical to acknowledge weaknesses - I would think that the problem of being able to really focus on a conductor while playing PSG is a real issue that needs to be addressed in general for this instrument. This is different than other variable-pitch instruments like, let's say, the violin-family, in that one needs to look down to really see what you're doing. Yeah, you look down at a piano keyboard also, but it's a fixed-pitch instrument, quite different. Still, I wouldn't think this is insurmountable if you understand exactly what you need to work on.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

Illegitimi non carborundum

Macaronic Latin?

Mike Perlowin wrote:When I play at the Hollywood Bowl with the L.A. Philharmonic as my backup band, I will send him 2 complementary tickets.

No. Send him one ticket, and make him pay for the other!

b0b wrote:I've never had a problem watching pretty girls dance while I play. Watching a conductor might not be as much fun, but it can't be any more difficult.

Remember, you only have to glance at the steel when you change frets.

Joe Wright comes to mind. Always looking around and never misses a note or plays out of tune.

Jonathan Candler comes to mind...

When I play at the Hollywood Bowl with the L.A. Philharmonic as my backup band, I will send him 2 complementary tickets.

It could happen and I hope it does.

I began my experience with "classical" music in the late 1960's, at various times playing flute, trombone, tuba and string bass, and have since worked for many years as a sound mixer and audio technician in that genre as well. I have worked with dozens of conductors, many of them well-known, a few of them truly legendary, but some of them clearly no more than "Legends In Their Own Minds" and while your experience with this joker turned out to be less than satisfying it does not surprise me one bit, conductor jokes abound in the business due to such displays of ignorant petulance.

I learned at a very early age that spontaneous ranting and raving, calling of names, ridiculing and humiliating those under their command, etc. are all stock in trade for those of his ilk who lack any true talent or interest in anything other than propping up their own egos at others' expense.

Remember that the old adage "those who got it don't talk and those who talk don't got it" applies to orchestra conductors as much as anyone on the planet and that not all classical conductors are so full of their own B.S. as to say such things as this fellow has said to you. Many, in fact, are truly committed to and interested in ALL forms of music and are eager to learn something new when it presents.

I have no doubt whatsoever that this path will eventually lead you to productive and satisfying collaboration with REAL symphonic performers and that this fool - and his outsized ego - will slowly fade into the dust as you walk away smiling. His attitude and derogatory comments to you are pretty much a sign that he has not clue one about what music is about and has chosen not to pursue finding one in this lifetime...

Mike - Frank Zappa said "without deviating from a norm, there can be no progress", and also that "the place you find the least enthusiasm for norm-nuking is the symphony orchestra". So I gotta hand it to ya for going right into the belly of the beast. I've gotten to play harmonica in orchestral situations a time or two, and even tho as a life-time player I'm totally in control, can read music and watch the conductor, man I tremble in there - it's just SO intimidating. Going in there w/ a steel would be utterly impossible for me - of course you are way more in control of that instrument than I'll ever be. Also, at least harmonica has had several precedents in the classical world. Not so w/ the steel. Mark Levine's Pedal Steel Concerto, which has had a grand total of one performance ever, (here in Nashville) doesn't count.

Yours is a truly humble attitude and that's an ace in the hole. I'm glad you're not letting that one guy and his personal agenda stop you. Your playing turned some people on there, so you did accomplish something. Besides symphonies, there are often smaller, more forward-thinking chamber groups, like Nashville's "Alias" and sadly missed Nashville Chamber Orchestra (who did the Mark Levine piece.)

You can be sure all of those orchestra players will be talking about you for quite a while, getting your name out there, and something's going to come back for you. You're my hero for not being afraid to go in there and fail. One more Zappa-ism: "The only people who are afraid of failure are the ones who've convinced themselves that they are SO fabulous, they should never fail at anything. Failure is the norm. It's success that's the exception - that's why everybody's so cranked up about it."

I have zero professional playing experience, but the line about not being able to eyeball the conductor is BS. I'm certain there are many blind musicians in orchestras all over the world. While they can intonate without looking at their instruments, they cannot see the conductor. What's more important as that you can read the sheet music, play in time with the orchestra and look to the conductor when you need or expect a visual cue.

Keep up the set breaking work.

My sister is a pro cello player and she said "what is the difference between a conductor and a sack of sh**??? the sack...."

If I found myself in the position of having to play steel with an orchestra and a conductor (maybe in some future lifetime), I'd certainly be adamant that I'd have to set up with everything I need to see in a straight line; my music stand lined up straight in front of me with the bottom of the music page parallel with the top of the steel and the conductor directly behind that, so that either in peripheral vision or with only slight movement of my eyes, not my head, I could see the conductor's movements. This would no doubt mean having to be set up side-on to the audience, but that's what pianists do all the time.

I'm certain there are many blind musicians in orchestras all over the world

.
I don't know if I'd say many. There is a system for integrating blind musicians into orchestras, but it is difficult at best.

http://books.google.com/books?id=rgbbGg ... re&f=false

The other alternative is memorizing the score, a daunting task for even a sighted musician.

Barry Blackwood wrote:The other alternative is memorizing the score, a daunting task for even a sighted musician.

Daunting, perhaps, but the standard for classical soloists.

Your comment reminded me of this. My comment above (about the music stand) would only apply to audition and rehearsal contexts, where verbal references to "bar 68" or whatever might occur.

Things are leaning in the right direction...
Check out what the Marin Symphony Orchestra is up to...
http://www.marinsymphony.org/first_fusion.htm

Q: What's the difference between God and a conductor?
A: God knows He's not a conductor.

Q: What's the difference between a bull and an orchestra?
A: The bull has the horns in the front and the asshole in the back.

But wait, there's more...

http://www.fbym.org.uk/jokes/conductors.asp

http://www.you-can-be-funny.com/Conductor-Jokes.html


...and on and on and on and...

Ron Page wrote: line about not being able to eyeball the conductor is BS.

It is NOT BS for me. Maybe others can play in tune without looking at their hands. (I don't know how Jonathan candler does it,) but I can't. The business of not being able to look up at the conductor is a real issue that must be dealt with, and not to be summarily dismissed. It is in fact, the single biggest problem I expect to face as I pursue this path.

I think the solution is to be seated where I can clearly hear all the instruments, and take my cues from listening to the musicians as they follow the conductor.

At any rate, I was unaware of this issue when I did the audition, and now I know there is a problem for which I must find a solution. At the very least, I need to discuss it with any conductor I may work with in the future, prior to attempting to play with him or her.

OK, now for the good news.

As I mentioned, one of the French Horn players who was there that night also plays in a very large group (50-60 pieces) that's only brass and woodwinds. They are called Peninsula Symphonic Winds. These folks are really wonderful. Here is a link.

http://www.palosverdes.com/peninsulawinds/

She invited me to watch a rehearsal, and I met the assistant conductor and gave him (and her) a set of my CDs. Here is what the assistant conductor wrote to the lady who brought me. The "Richard" he mentioned is the regular conductor, who was absent that day.

Hi, Jennifer:

I wanted to let you know that I listened to Mike's CD's over the weekend and enjoyed them immensely! Karen (my wife) and I loved every bit of the recordings and were impressed by his skill as well as his musicality and creativity. Thanks so much for introducing him to our group!

I talked with Richard about the possibility of having Mike perform with us and he's quite intrigued. I'll get him the CD's to listen to and we can take it from there. (It might be something we do for Pops, but we also might want to save it for an indoor concert next year.)

With regard to Pops, I'll start putting a program together soon, and I'll definitely look for your input at that point. I'll keep you posted as that progresses.

Have a great week!

- Joel

The music these people play isn't exactly what I had envisioned for myself, but they are so good, and this is such a great opportunity, that I will adapt.

To be continued.....

Hah! That's awesome, Mike. Don't forget to send the other conductor ONE ticket to your debut (and let him know that he might qualify for a professional discount for the other ticket.) LOL.

You don't need to look at your hands the whole time. You only need to look down when you change frets. Try it!

Have you ever watched your electronic tuner while you're recording a phrase? Same thing. You have to look down when you move the bar, but after that you can look around.

Mike, it sounds like a riser might help. If you could set up on a two ft. or so riser, then you are looking down to see the conductor all the time. Your hands would naturally be in your line of sight as you watch the conductor. Would they allow you to use one?

b0b wrote:You don't need to look at your hands the whole time. You only need to look down when you change frets. Try it!

Bobby, I appreciate the suggestion, but I tried looking at the conductor when I wasn't moving the bar at the audition, and I was unable to do it. Part of this is because I have such poor eyesight, but mostly it's because the music I'm playing requires a lot of bar movement. It's not like I can plant the bar and do it all with the pedals, (although I do play some pedal licks occasionally when I think they are appropriate.)

The more I think about this, the more I think that the answer is to take my cues from listening to the other musicians as they follow the conductor.

At any rate, now that I have a conductor who is sympathetic, he and I can discuss this and try to figure out how best to deal with it. Maybe he will have some ideas.

That's great Mike. Glad to hear about the new opportunity.
This sounds like a win-win situation for all concerned. Hope it materializes for you.

A lot of times I have to watch a guitar player's hands while I play to learn the chords of a song. And sometimes I watch the drummer to sync with the beat. Isn't it pretty much the same thing?

I doubt that you'll find any conductor who will accommodate musicians who don't watch him. Maybe you should stick to chamber music that doesn't require a conductor.

The issue of watching the conductor is a challenge for every symphonic player to master (even brass players with only three valves) as there is also the music to be read and for some the bowing technique of the section leader to pay attention to at the same time. And yes, for most fretless stringed instruments such as violin and cello DO require some visual attention to the fingerboard at times to stay in tune, but then that's also what the vibrato is for, to give us a bit of leeway to slide into better position when we miss!

After a bit of experience most of us learn to focus on what we need to see to get the job done while keeping the conductor's baton in our peripheral vision, only looking directly up when necessary for specific cues. Begin by placing the music stand directly beneath the conductor in our line of sight, although with two or more reading from the same stand this is not always possible. If it helps, remember that these are challenges for everyone around you, not just the steel player.

This is another twist to working in this exhalted environment. A riser can sometimes help with this, but only if nobody else is sitting behind you!

Congratulations on your speedy acceptance by open-minded music enthusiasts, I'll bet you're all going to have big fun before you're through!

Mike,
I wonder if you could do something with a mirror? Make something that mounts to the front legs, and holds a flat, adjustable angle mirror up near the fingerboard That would allow you to see the reflection of the conductor, as well as your hands and fingerboard?????