The Steel Guitar Forum

"HOW can a conductor of a symphony orchestra think that ANY instrument capable to produce any and all 12 semi-tones could be limited to only one musical idiom? "

Oh, I think we have some folks right here on this forum that have that exact attitude. Hard to get too indignant when the idea that steel is and always shall be a country instrument is so prevalent in the steel guitar community itself. An attitude you've had to fight against right here in the past Mike.

The only real issue is, will you wear the slinky cocktail dress a la Anne-Sophie Mutter & Hilary Hahn or go for the traditional tattered overalls & straw hat?

Bill

I don't see PSG as just a country instrument - far from it, as I'm not much of a country music fan myself - but I'm pretty sure that it will never be seen as a legitimate instrument of the orchestra, any more than is a saxophone. It's an instrument that was created to fulfill a need in popular music

I maintain my belief that there'll always be prejudice against it in certain circles, principally because to all intents and purposes it's an electric guitar.

I have to say this is the most interesting thread. All of you have posed thoughtful responses. I am anxious to see where this goes. Imagine for a moment the principle oboe playing A 440 for the rest of the orchestra, including the PSG, to tune to him. I wonder which "A" I would choose to tune - pedaled A (from G#) or natural A at the fifth fret... assuming the the E9 neck is being used. If the C6 neck is used, open A will probably be flat of A 440 if you have tempered it to C.

I've been tuning 'straight up' for a while now and have largely retrained my ears to accommodate those 'thirds' at the proper pitch. It still grates occasionally when I'm noodling at home but I'm far happier being in tune with everyone else, especially when I'm playing in the pit with horns, woodwinds and, of course, piano.

Mike Sammy Kaye was known for big band sound send this Video to this Jerk:).
It is Harbour Lights guess what Instrument Plays the opening Intro>>>??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AMuM5ExqOo
Also one of the Most beautiful things I ever heard played on ANY Instrument was Herby Wallace playing Somewhere in time at the Convertion, I have never forgotten how beautiful that was to this day never heard anything more Melodic PERIOD!. My Music teacher in the 5th grade said the only thing that played guitars were hillbillys and criminals,my Dad was going to give him a Lesson compliments of one hillbilly:)....

Very interesting thread and I hope it goes well for you Mike.

You mention that you haven't played with a full symphony orchestra before. I'm sorry I maybe should be more aware, but I was wondering how much work you've done with a conductor?

Many of the chamber groups I've played with in the past were often under the direction of the lead player, which can be a very different dynamic than with a conductor.

This conductor might evaluate you based not only on your interpretation of the piece, but also how respectful and attentive you are to his directions, especially tempo and volume. You might consider asking the concert master/mistress (1st chair 1st violin) for some advice for any expectations this conductor may have. I suggest treating him like a 5-Star General, regardless of how relaxed the rehearsal seems.

I also think checking in with the 1st chair oboe player about tuning was a very good suggestion; Lots of them use a tuning fork and you might check it against your tuner before downbeat. Word does get around in an orchestra and those little bits of information floating back to the conducter about you may serve to your advantage.

Geez I hope you do well. Best wishes to you.

David Mason wrote:The only real issue is, will you wear the slinky cocktail dress a la Anne-Sophie Mutter & Hilary Hahn or go for the traditional tattered overalls & straw hat?

I was thinking of having a suit made for me by Lady Gaga's costume designer.

Roger Rettig wrote:Bill

I don't see PSG as just a country instrument - far from it, as I'm not much of a country music fan myself - but I'm pretty sure that it will never be seen as a legitimate instrument of the orchestra, any more than is a saxophone. It's an instrument that was created to fulfill a need in popular music

I agree Roger. I'm not auditioning for a gig playing in the orchestra, but for a spot on a program as a guest artist, doing my thing, accompanied by the orchestra.

Scott Shewbridge wrote:... I was wondering how much work you've done with a conductor?

None. This will be my first time,

Many of the chamber groups I've played with in the past were often under the direction of the lead player....

That's how my trio worked. I call it "my" trio, but it's really the violist's. She put it together and invited me to join it, and she calls the shots.

This conductor might evaluate you based not only on your interpretation of the piece, but also how respectful and attentive you are to his directions, especially tempo and volume. You might consider asking the concert master/mistress (1st chair 1st violin) for some advice for any expectations this conductor may have. I suggest treating him like a 5-Star General...

You are absolutely correct. I want to win this man's respect, and I want him to become my ally and supporter. I intend to show him the utmost respect, including asking his advise, in the hope that it is reciprocated.

You can catch more flies with honey than you can with vinegar.

With that attiditude we will all come out ahead no matter what actually transpires, this is how we change the world, one convert at a time!

I do want to offer you one important tip to bear in mind when working with an orchestra and a conductor: Remember that the viola is not realy smaller than the violin, but that the violinists' HEADS are that much LARGER!

I fully understood that, Mike, but was attempting to identify reasons for his lack of enthusiasm for the instrument over and above mere prejudice. It could, of course, also be that he did listen to your CDs but didn't like the way the steel sounded in that context.

Don't think that I don't wish you every success - I do; I've always been a glass-half-empty kind-of guy, so I hope my fears prove groundless for your sake!

Bon chance!!!

I'm very interested in what you are doing Mike and again want to say I hope you do really well.

From school days, I have worked under a number of conductors and can vouch that all of the errors I am trying to remember right now got me in big trouble.

For many organizations there is a sort of "fall in, attention, at-ease" protocol. I was a playing woodwinds and a typical scenario would be:

1) Pre-conductor entry, oboe A-440, with strings, then woodwinds.
2) Conductor approaches and stands on the platform, all talking would cease and we would sit up, look at the conductor's face and hold our instruments at a quasi-attention stance (e.g., clarinets up with bells on the right knee).
3) Conductors arms up, instruments ready to play and appropriate get ready response (e.g., woodwinds take a breath).
4) For rehearsal, the conductor might give one measure of tempo direction, but rarely during performance. Usually tempo is perceived by the speed of the upstroke before the first down beat.
5) Conducting styles are varied, but most are based on the 4/4 pattern of one beat on the down stroke, two to the conductors left, three to the right and four back in the middle with a bounce-up back to one down. Obviously there are variations for other meters (there are probably some youtube videos with examples; side note 6/8 was always the funny one,counted in a two pattern and the toughest one for young musicians ). Actually, I'll bet you can find a youtube of someone conducting your piece.
6) Dynamics are typically conveyed with the size of the beat strokes (e.g., big/loud, small/soft).
7) Cutoffs are typically a loop of the hands/baton and a dropping of arms and shoulders; They are very serious business. Keep an eye on the conductor and do not play after his cutoff. Never be the last to stop; It proves that you are not paying attention.
8 ) Noodling/practicing when the conductor is talking will get you i) one look, ii) one word, iii) walking papers.

I have only played in two orchestras, but I can say that their conductors are usually the most demanding of all. Like a General, they will respond to well-disciplined troops.

Sorry if I come of as a know-it-all, I don't mean to. I really do hope you do well. If you don't get this audition, you might ask the conductor if you can attend some of his rehearsals; Your familiarity with his style might diminish your audition anxieties and will say much more than words about your 20+ year dedication. It will certainly help you for future opportunities and most conductors seem to appreciate active interest.

Truly, truly best wishes. Please keep us informed.

I have had two occasions to play with orchestras here in Philadelphia. The first time, since I was the guest soloist, the concertmaster/1st violin deferred to me to provide the orchestra with an A440. Since I don't tune "straight up", but tweak my intervals, I didn't want to give them my adjusted A so I declined. I think they thought that was kind of weird, that I would not provide them with the correct pitch for tuning. But, they did seem to enjoy backing me up and several made nice comments to me afterwards. On the second occasion I played with them, I told the conductor in advance that I did not wish to give the orchestra their note, and the reasons why. He handled it ahead of time and it was no issue.

Great Picture, John!

Mike, this is indeed the most interesting thread on the Forum. Please keep us all informed on how this goes. I wish for you the best experience of your life.

As for the tuning question, violin virtuoso, Jascha Heifetz, once said: "I don't play in tune better than anyone else...I just correct it faster."

Mike I understand your predicament; it goes with the land. I have sent out over 100 Cd's of my work to FM Jazz and Classical Radio stations but I learned soon that it pays to call ahead and talk to the Program Director and to let them know that there is no hint of COUNTRY in my work. If you don't call ahead, they will look at STEEL GUITAR and the CD will go into the can. I did some Chamber works with steel and Brass Quintet that I wrote when I was a grad student at the Univ. The other players had never seen a steel player who could read along with them. As of a couple of years ago, I label my CD's THE NOVA SONIC GUITAR of........The response has been much better. You have put in countless hours perfecting what you've recorded; the time will come when the right person will let you in the door. Stravinsky wrote a symphony for mandolin--and it was not a country blue grass event.

Mike, hit him with a rendition of "Orpheous In The Underworld". That should get the whole orchestra jamming.

b0b wrote:Maybe you could double on banjo.

Several years ago while working for the San Antonio Symphony (as a graphic designer, not a musician ), I had the privilege of meeting featured artist Buddy Wachter, who is an amazing classical banjo player.
I had never seen anything like it before or since.

I hope you get that gig Mike!
If Mr Wachter can get banjo accepted in the classical realm, then why not PSG?
Just because it hasnt been done before doesnt mean it shouldnt.
I love your classical CD, and others like Earnest Bovine have proved the validity of the instrument in the genre.
Its about time these stereotypes and prejudice be laid to rest once and for all.

Clete

Very thought provoking indeed....goes right to the heart of what our instrument is all about.
Intellectually and musically I support and agree with all of the positive posts that have been made so far, but I am also a realist.
While banjo, pedal steel, accordian, even trombone, etc. can all be used believably outside their respective normal genres of music, don't forget we have FIVE senses...or four more than just hearing.
I.e., to paraphase a cliche, "if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and sounds like a duck....." IT IS A DUCK!!
And our pedal steel is a pedal steel...and people will hear what they perceive to hear based on their entire musical experience, positive or negative, informed or not informed, open minded or close minded....not necessarily what talent is exhibited.
We are fighting a 50+ year old stereotype image of this instrument and people of this generation will always be, as so aptly pointed out in a previous post....PREJUDICED.

Mike,

You should really consider getting in touch with Andy Stein of Commander Cody fame. He has played all different styles over the years and according to his web page, he is still involved in the "classical music" scene. There is a contact link on his web page. Perhaps he could be interested in your quest.

http://www.andysteinmusic.com/index.htm

Some people just hate the timbre of certain instruments. I know, because I'm one of them! It really doesn't matter to me that virtuoso can play great classical music or jazz on it. The sound of the instrument (which I shall not name) simply doesn't appeal to me.

I don't like certain foods, too. Same thing. It doesn't matter if they're served boiled in the kitchen or braised and garnished in a fancy restaurant, I just don't like 'em.

The conductor's statement may simply be a matter of personal preference, not an indictment of all pedal steel players in the world. I'm just sayin'...

Mike, this isn't gonna be easy but all the best in your quest. I loved what you did with the music from West Side Story...kinda brought Frank Zappa to mind. This audition will simply be a larger version of what you're now doing with the string trio and it seems to me you've already had some luck with the opinions of the cello and violin players. If they like what you're doing who's to say the conductor won't... I wouldn't think the fact that yours is an electric instrument should be an impediment. I see electric guitars used quite frequently in so called new music festivals...no problem. Again, best of luck with this fellow. A man with your dedication deserves the oportunity to showcase himself and his chosen instrument and you're right to keep the personality of that instrument unchanged. The pedal bends and slides...yeah, keep em in there. Good luck and Cheers.

Hello Mike. If I may relate a story I heard many years ago about a great Irish Flautist, James Galway. James was invited to audition for a well known European Symphony Orchestra. He arrived late for the audition, and the Conductor gave him an excessive verbal dressing down. James was getting ready to leave, and the Conductor said words to the effect "While you are here, you might as well play for us". James took out his instrument and absolutely wowed the Conductor and the Orchestra with his virtuosity and musicality.
When the Conductor offered him the job on the spot; James packed his gear and walked out, saying "No Thanks, I would not be happy here".
Best of luck with your project. Hope you enjoy the story.
Sez

Guys, Thanks for all the well wishes. As it turns out, The day I was originally scheduled to audition is President's day, so the audition has been postponed a week.

As previously stated, this is the first time I'll play with an orchestra and conductor, so I'm looking at it as a learning experience. Hopefully, I'll get the gig. And if it's offered, I will not turn it down. The conductor may be prejudiced against our instrument, but he is at least giving me a chance.

Who knows, maybe I can change his mind.