The Steel Guitar Forum

Franklin wrote:...My take on the universal vs D10 threads........

I believe once anyone discovers that intervals are intervals, and the same intervals can be found within any tuning, their personal mental restrictions start to peel away. They begin to find needs for altering their pedal arrangement....They will continue to expand their pedal arrangement until they achieve their specific desires.......No matter what tuning, its a personalized instrument......I don't ever see that changing......

....Paul

I forgot to mention in my reply that I've been following all Zane King's posts about alternate tunings with a great deal of interest.

As I play more and learn more, I always find myself wondering how certain string placements and pulls came about. I wonder if I might find a change that works better for me and how my brain and body work.

To me the ZK tunings hold a lot of promise -- In fact, I'm building an S-10 which may now become an S-12 in light of these cool new ideas.

And since I've been gigging so much more, I really like the idea of a lighter horn!

Bill,

Thanks for following along on my postings. As you continue to put your guitar together let me know if I can help in the finer adjustments of the setup.

Paul F. is absolutely correct that we have a personalized instrument.

Thirty years ago steel players were bemoaning the same things that I hear now, that is, the decline of its popularity, the lack of young players, the general public having little or no idea what it is, and the increasing lack of gigs. Yet still it survives and some would argue that there are more players now than in the past.

For myself, I have definitely seen a change for the better in the available equipment and the overall knowledge that steel players have, due in great part to this Forum. In the past I remember feeling alone for there were few if any other steel players to talk to or trade ideas and licks with. Often, my only steel "friends" were those on the records I played along with. Also, years ago, I was playing ALL the time. There was absolutely no scarcity of jobs for steel players. Now that has definitely changed for all live musicians. Witness the growing situations in California and New York where one actually pays to play. I find that to be one of the most alarming trends.

The initiation fee to play pedal steel is still very high and the lack of teachers is the same, although the amount and availability of teaching material has thankfully increased.

E9th? C6th? Universal? I think the front neck will continue to be with us for a long time. The back neck has always been used less by most gigging players and I find that an increasing amount of the gigging players that I talk to admit to knowing very little about it. As for myself, I find myself practicing C6th almost all the time, but I know that's an exception.

Changes come slowly to the steel guitar. Witness that, for all their little use, the 4-pedal still hangs in there on most C6th copedants as does B&C on E9th. However, thankfully, one can still sit down on an unfamiliar steel and know that the basic pedal and knee changes will be there somewhere.

Oops, time to get off the soapbox. Good thread. Thanks Paul Franklin and other contributors.

I work doing radio promo/tracking and publicity for country acts from Canada and the US who want to reach a worldwide audience. I'm in regular contact with radio stations all around the world. Once of the acts I rep is The Western Swing Authority. When we sent out the album around the world, the immediate response was incredible in Europe. Italy, Germany, France, Sweden, Netherlands...you name it, radio there is on it. New Zealand more than Australia. I'm also finding a lot of Traditional/Real/Roots country stations in the US. For those of you who think country music is dead, no way. Steel guitars and fiddles are still very much alive.

Oh...one more thing. A friend of mine has a 17 year-old song who is an incredible guitar player. My friend said that his son is interested in playing pedal steel now. Very cool.

I will be going to see the WSA tomorrow evening(Tuesday)
What a great show!

I'm getting more paid psg work that I can handle right now. Everybody at all of my gigs goes nuts about the pedal steel sound, whether they've heard it before or not, even though I am a slow and relatively simplistic player. When it sounds right to me, I look around the room and everybody else is grinning from ear to ear too.

PSG is definitely not dead. And everybody except Nashville record producers knows that oldtime country was better than modern country.

But we must remember to separate pedal steel from country. It's a wonderful combination, but pedal steel sounds wonderful in almost any kind of music. I have been using it for all sorts of odd musical styles since the 70's, and that trend is growing.

I tune ET but will gladly tune JI if anyone can ever explain the logic of it to me -- when you "sweeten" what is the third in one chord, you are detuning the other chords where that same note is the root, fifth, or seventh. So, as someone who tries to think scientifically and logically, the case for ET was made by J.S. Bach 300 years ago, and the logical justification for JI escapes me. Yes, the open E triad sounds better to me too, but what about all those other chords? JI is fine for lap steel or dobro, but as soon as you add those pedals, you have a tempered instrument by definition.

Maybe a standard number of strings, tuning, number of necks, and copedant will develop eventually, but in the meantime the possibilities of any setup are so huge that one can devote a lifetime to exploring it. I have my hands full with 12 strings extended E9th, 5+5, and I don't need any more necks or tunings or pedals to keep me happily occupied til I die!

Is this thread entering Topic Drift or Topic Flush?

I think it's great that everyone is just stating opinions. No need to debate the right or wrong counters to personal opinions or observations....This thread is primarily about the forums history.....How much has changed if any with the instrument or its players since the forum's beginning.....How about all of these positive posts about the state of acceptance and growth as a musical instrument?

All of your experiences coincide with my perception.....The steel is an instrument that is well received by most ears......There really hasn't been one single negative post about the instruments acceptance...I can tell you firsthand Nashville is recording some of the best traditional steel guitar music on the planet every year......Informing the traditional Country fans as to its whereabouts is the obstacle the business is trying to overcome........Paul

Coming from you Paul, that's good to know.

Paul, great topic. You are absolutly correct in your statement about moving with the times or staying in the past. I stayed in the past and for the past 20 years every year has been a struggle to just make the rent. When there were not traditional gigs for me then it was driving or building guitars or what ever I could do to make a living. Having said that there was a time when I made a concious decesion to keep up with the times. I bought the effects, put the changes of the day on my guitar, went to auditions and did my best to move with the times. This was in the late 90s. I had no success, at the time I was fourth years of age, balding and overweight. Too many times I left auditions with the knowledge that the gig was given to a younger, slimmer player. Many of those players not very musically qualified either. The whole image thing forced me to a certain degree to stay in the past where I was accepted for my playing skills. I think steel guitar is alive and well. I do wish there were more individualism stylisticly though. In the 60s and 70s when you and I grew up playing we could tell in the first four bars of a song who was playing on the record. Now when I listen to modern country records I know if Its D. D. but the rest of the time I can't tell if it is you or someone playing like you. I have the upmost respect for you as I hope you know and am amazed at your talent and knowledge. You have done so much to bring steel into to world spotlight musically. I don't know many of the young players anymore but I understand there are some great ones coming up. I could rant on for days but I won't. BTW, I'm not as fat as I used to be and my head is shaved (I see on tv that that's cool now). If any of the young artist you record with need a steel player send them my way. I love playing the new stuff. If they ask me how old I am I'll just tell them I'm two years younger than you. LOL. I love ya old friend, keep up the good work.

As music changes,so shall the steel guitar.I watch Zanes stuff at first wondered,What the hell is he doing.Then it dawned on me ,he is evolving.I don't think the psg is dying,maybe needs some updating.People are so diverse in what they like to listen to that some like it and some don't.Some of it is where we get booked.If clientel is mainly rock,then you don't go over so hot.But if they are there for country,you can't play enough.A good friend of mine owns a major club and does rock on Fridays and country on Sat.to keep the place going.I look at it like this.We play so much different stuff,Their bound to not like some of it. Elbo

I think Bob Hoffnar may have hinted at this in his post, but Austin is full of younger bands that are embracing the steel guitar. However, these bands sometimes have unique ideas about how the steel fits. A lot of times they will tell you that it's a 'traditional country' gig, but when you show up you find that they've done their own thing with the arrangements, instrumentation, feel, or whatever, and much of the time it's some sort of hybrid of 'real country', rock-a-billy, or whatever, but with the energy that youth can bring. I like playing with these kids, keeps me feeling young.

All that said, these younger guys (and gals) DO like a lot of older traditional country, many of them 'get it', and whether you like what they might do to George Jones or not, these bands do like steel guitar. Generally if I ask why they want steel the answer is "nothing else sounds like it."

If the pedalsteelguitar are dying I don't now yet. I'm still playing almost every weekend here in Holland. I'm one of the youngest steelplayer of Holland but its importent that the new generation learning pedalsteel otherwise it will be dying from now and 20 years.

Marcel

A few weeks ago I was playing a gig and I ripped my speaker cone right in half towards the end of the second set (we played three). My only option was to plug into a fender ultimate chorus that was on stage. It's a real crappy amp for getting any kind of clean steel sound.

So for the entire third set I was forced to play in a completely different style because of what the amp could do. It was really fun! I felt like I learned a lot from the situation.

Personally, I'm not worried about the future of the pedal steel one bit. It has bettered my life more than I can say, and gave me hope for making a career out of playing music.

Also, learning to play a D10 has really helped me with fitting into different styles of music and keeping a "presence" with a band.

I don't think there is a problem of steel acceptance with the audiences here. The problem is that most groups are four piece and do not want to split the loot. When I am not playing, I find it very difficult to find a place where steel is being played. There are only three that working very much that I know of.

I'm not in the "click" I guess you could say. Play Gospel only, don't play gigs, but enjoy hearing the steel on every song coutry or other. Play at church mostly. Have played at a funeral, (my mothers) Get upset with the Gaither thing, when a lot of their songs in my opinion would sound better with steel guitar in them. But thats beside the point. My thought is too many years steel guitar has been associated with the "sound" a steel guitar has in country music. Or I guess that is how it would be put. I've only ran into one music director that shunned the steel or any guitar for that matter and I think was because she had had a bad experience with guitar players who "take" the show. Although without knowing it she did the same. I tried playing guitar with her. She never stopped playing long enough to give another instrument a chance. But even in the Gospel music field I think "evolving" is the need. I find it a challenge playing contemporary Gospel. It cause's me to want to practice more and even learn the "formidable" C6 neck. If I want to play I've got to step up to the plate. Actually played a little C6th on a jazzy song a few weeks ago just on the spur of the moment. To see and hear people like Paul Franklin, and Zane King along with many others who decided that steel wasn't just a "country" instrument to me is inspiring and should give us "country" guys inspiration to go with the crowd so to speak. Think outside the box. I think that is what keeps the instrument alive. It's like the fiddle or Voilin. Take Classical for instance. Beethoven's 5th is far from the "Orange Blossom Special" but yet is played on the same instrument.

Franklin wrote:...Don't get me wrong, I love traditional Country and one of my all time favorite sessions was getting to record on Jake Hookers last CD......
Paul

Boy they gave you room to cut loose on that one didn't they!! What a great album!

I still have people asking me what kind of guitar is this ? They say it looks like a keyboard and to that i quickly reply ''no '' its not a keyboard ! Then they say i really like this ! Is it hard to play they ask and i reply it takes a lot of practice and patience . I don't really know where the steel guitar is going in music but i have heard it in a lot of places other than country music . In my opinion there isn't any other instrument that catches my ear better than ''Pedal Steel Guitar '' ! Don't get me wrong i do love the great ''tele's , pianos and fiddles . They say what goes round comes round so lets be patient and wait for the steel guitar to be the most heard instrument in country music again . Just let me say this as a steel player ,if i see a new country act on tv without a steel guitar they better be '' HOT '' or they are gone fast ! '' No flame please '' just me thinking out loud . Paul you have worded your opinion very nicely . By the way i just saw you with the Time Jumpers Saturday evening for the first time and as always you sounded awsome as usual . I was hoping they would do Sweet Memories . I like Larrys Diner . My two cents worth i suppose . G.P.

To paraphrase "reports of it's death have been highly exaggerated"...

Most people don't know what's makin' that noise... My steel studio is in the back of a shop that makes window treatments. When they come in to deal with the proprietress, they hear my funny noises and right away want to know "What Is That Thing?" They all like the sound, and recognize it, they just are unaware of the musical instrument.

Hey PF, thanks for caring about us!

I am an old guy playing in young bands for the college crowd. I am suprised how informed the young kids are about steel guitar. I don't get that question - "What is that thing you are playing"? Maybe it is Robert Randolph or CMT, I am not sure. I get a lot of thumbs up from the kids in the crowd. What I love the best is when I get a call from a band asking me to play because the bar owner wants that good steel guitar player that played last time. It makes me feel real good.

...as i am a beginner, i'm really looking forward my D10 which should be finished around christmas.
and i like classic country (without carnival - although i'm german! maybe johan helps me out!)
regards
guido

Johnny,

Never thought of you as someone struggling with gigs.......I assumed you drove buses out of desire, not to survive........I know the problems age presents.......I can play on their sessions......Its been 20 years since any of them asked this chunky guy to do their video....LOL Ahh!!! what I'd give to be 20 again.....Nahhhh!!!!

Thanks for bringing up another forum topic. ........"Today, they choose youthful musicians over older players"...That is certainly true, but I don't think its anything new.......I believe appearance has always been relevant.....looking at those Ganaway tapes from the late 50's, I see mostly young faces. As I grow older this becomes a more frustrating hurdle.....I love to eat and the wrinkles keep on coming.......

Here's my take....we started taking gigs in our early 20's...Look at the similar age of our generation...Mike Jones, Mike Smith, Mike Johnson, Tommy White, Randy Reinhard, Terry Crisp, Jack Smith, Gary Carter, Randy Beavers, Robbie Springfield, Bruce Bouton, Steve Hinson, Russ Pahl, and on and on...For our generation to emerge, some older players must have lost the chance at a good gig.....I remember how young and excited we all were to get great gigs! I remember you getting the ET gig at a young age, Jack Smith took the Anderson gig, I took the Tillis gig, and Jerry Brightman became a Buckaroo...We were all young and fearless.....I believe the road is really suited for the young, less settled musicians.......When I look at our age group, all of us, who were choosing our career paths back then were about 5 to 10 years apart, at the most.....

When I look at the impact of a Jerry Douglas, Bela Fleck, Sam Bush, Mark Oconner, Brent Mason and so on..... They all started their careers in their early 20's and all of them are my generations age......I've heard some great young musicians in their 20's......Many are getting todays gigs on various instruments..............I don't believe this is the first generation to experience employers hiring youthful over older players.....I remember hearing about alot of older players put on the bench for not choosing to learn commercial 60's steel guitar.....I'm talking Byrd, Siebert, Wiggins, etc.....Roy told me once pedals changed the way steel was played on recordings his generation lost favor.......Once young players like Day, Keith, Emmons, Rugg, Chalker, Anderson, Jernigan, Oneil, Garrish, Myrick, Charlton, etc, entered the market, things changed.........

I believe each generation influences the next, which brings about a shift, or sometimes a complete change in the way music is played.....

Paul

I started playing steel about 10 years ago, and it wasn't until the past 3 that I opened up and started putting my guitar effects in the mix with it. Before that, I just thought if I wanted an experimental or rock sound, I'd just play guitar. Once I put the toys in the mix, I was able to find sounds that worked better with many of the people I was playing with. But, on a side note, when i hear others play pedal steel, I do like more traditional styles and sounds.

My first steel was a ShoBud Pro 3, and I never touched the C6th neck. When I see and hear people play C6th, I like it, but never got the bug, it now sits in the closet. And now with a E9 4x5 SD10, there are so many options to work on already, maybe i'll start on c6th in another 10 years.

Pedal steel is alive, but when compared to many other popular instruments, their cost & accessibility is a big obstacle.

Gordon

I would say the psg builders could answer that by how their sales are.Seems like most of em have a waiting list