Talking about cable guitars
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Michael Lee Allen
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Michael Lee Allen
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- Location: Portage Park, Chicago, Illinois
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Michael Lee Allen
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- Joined: 28 Jan 2004 1:01 am
- Location: Portage Park, Chicago, Illinois
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Michael Lee Allen
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- Joined: 28 Jan 2004 1:01 am
- Location: Portage Park, Chicago, Illinois
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Michael Lee Allen
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- Joined: 28 Jan 2004 1:01 am
- Location: Portage Park, Chicago, Illinois
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Michael Lee Allen
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- Location: Portage Park, Chicago, Illinois
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Michael Lee Allen
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Allan Munro
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- Location: Pennsylvania, USA and Scotland
Indeed they do Bill, indeed they do.Bill Hankey wrote:Allan M... Highly intelligent people trust those cables for every practical use imaginable.
Cables are a great way to accomplish many many things. I am most certainly NOT against the use of cables in the steel guitar application, so, please do not think that I am. What I want from you is some showing of this system that you tell us about. I believe that it could be a major talking point here on this forum.
Unfortunately, in the past, your posts do tend to make a lot of claims, many of them fascinating, but fall short when you are asked to supply some meat for the stew.
There is a hunger for input around here. If you believe that your system is good enough, or even better, than what is currently out there then either describe it in understandable terms or show it! A diagram or a picture would do the job.
Why the reluctance?
(not too many loose strands here by the way)
Only nuts eat squirrels.
Television is the REAL opiate of the masses!
Television is the REAL opiate of the masses!
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Bill Hankey
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Allan M.,
I'll try to promote some of my ideas that work for me, as soon as I clear up a few important matters that are pending. They are unrelated problems that need to be worked out. I can tell you that the general public throws away at curbside, that which is needed to build a pedal steel. Amazing, but true!
I'll try to promote some of my ideas that work for me, as soon as I clear up a few important matters that are pending. They are unrelated problems that need to be worked out. I can tell you that the general public throws away at curbside, that which is needed to build a pedal steel. Amazing, but true!
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Duane Reese
- Posts: 2016
- Joined: 13 Oct 2005 12:01 am
Bill, I'll let others speak for themselves, but don't bother putting up any pictures if it's for my sake. I've already come to a conclusion, and I think you know what it is.
Hey, BIG thanks to Michael Lee Allen. That is a treasure of info on those old guitars. Just awesome.
Hey, BIG thanks to Michael Lee Allen. That is a treasure of info on those old guitars. Just awesome.
Last edited by Duane Reese on 1 Aug 2010 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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richard burton
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Bill Hankey
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richard burton,
A friend once told me,"You can make SOUP out of CHICKEN FEATHERS." Of course, I immediately deducted the essence of the comment, as the remark was made during a game of Scrabble. It was quite the exaggeration of the day. If he had turned to my steel guitar, and made reference to IT in that magnitude, I would have concurred without hesitation. Richard, Duane feels as though I've discredited you, by stalking your nonphotogenic homemade steel, and making rude comments. I can see at a glance, the overkill in terms of energy, that went into that creation. If someone paid you a reasonable salary for the time consumed in the making of that steel, they could have purchased about a half dozen factory built steel guitars. I mean to say Richard, IT'S TOO MUCH!! To much hardware stuffed into a relatively small area is not the way to go. One of the common mistakes that often rears its ugly head, is, heavy duty this, and heavy duty that, when much lighter construction materials
would serve the purpose. I'll apologize as much as need be, because Duane has openly stated the need for something to that effect. The facts over and above what Duane may be thinking, haven't changed over time. I made it clear many moons ago, how I respected your ability to be creative in originality. It should never be doubted that I'm aware of your abilities as an adept builder and musician. A bit of a sucker punch if you will. Richard, I felt the urge to report that goose and dog droppings, cigarette butts, beer bottles, soda cans, trash in general, litters the walkways of our beautiful scenic parks in the Berkshires. The most patient personnel are hired to clean the areas in an attempt to restore its original beauty. A correction is in order after your misleading statement about how fastidious and thoughtful the offenders and litterbugs go about keeping the city clean. May I remind you, Richard, that millions of dollars worth of valuables have been discarded here in America. I'm sure that you are aware of such matters.
A friend once told me,"You can make SOUP out of CHICKEN FEATHERS." Of course, I immediately deducted the essence of the comment, as the remark was made during a game of Scrabble. It was quite the exaggeration of the day. If he had turned to my steel guitar, and made reference to IT in that magnitude, I would have concurred without hesitation. Richard, Duane feels as though I've discredited you, by stalking your nonphotogenic homemade steel, and making rude comments. I can see at a glance, the overkill in terms of energy, that went into that creation. If someone paid you a reasonable salary for the time consumed in the making of that steel, they could have purchased about a half dozen factory built steel guitars. I mean to say Richard, IT'S TOO MUCH!! To much hardware stuffed into a relatively small area is not the way to go. One of the common mistakes that often rears its ugly head, is, heavy duty this, and heavy duty that, when much lighter construction materials
would serve the purpose. I'll apologize as much as need be, because Duane has openly stated the need for something to that effect. The facts over and above what Duane may be thinking, haven't changed over time. I made it clear many moons ago, how I respected your ability to be creative in originality. It should never be doubted that I'm aware of your abilities as an adept builder and musician. A bit of a sucker punch if you will. Richard, I felt the urge to report that goose and dog droppings, cigarette butts, beer bottles, soda cans, trash in general, litters the walkways of our beautiful scenic parks in the Berkshires. The most patient personnel are hired to clean the areas in an attempt to restore its original beauty. A correction is in order after your misleading statement about how fastidious and thoughtful the offenders and litterbugs go about keeping the city clean. May I remind you, Richard, that millions of dollars worth of valuables have been discarded here in America. I'm sure that you are aware of such matters.
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Bill Hankey
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Duane has requested skipping the displays of promo packages for his benefit. Just as my inner self had suspected, no long term friendship in the making. We can still do our own things, and avoid any deliberate distractions by naming and belittling one another. If the urge to go on experimenting with new ideas now and then continues, (hopefully it will) I will pursue those goals. It's sad to learn that sharing the enthusiasm involved in new ideas with others, may be more difficult than was first thought to be a reasonable expectation. 
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Duane Reese
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Remember Bill, I said don't bother putting up pictures if it's for my sake — I'm not asking you to keep pictures off the thread. In other words, I'm simply withdrawing my own request for you to put up pictures, but you are still more than welcome to put up pictures at the request of others, or even if no one requests it. You have a right to do that as a forum member, as long as the thread is open.Bill Hankey wrote:Duane has requested skipping the displays of promo packages for his benefit.
That statement from you could be read both ways, so I want to make sure you aren't telling everyone that you aren't going to put up pictures now, and it's all because of me. Again, you can put them up if you like, but if you don't, I'll survive.
By the way, I never said that you discredited Richard, because you didn't. I just thought that if you were going to criticize his home-built guitar, he deserved to see pictures of yours, and have the chance to offer criticism as well.
I think you're being just a little bit dramatic there, Bill.Bill Hankey wrote:Just as my inner self had suspected, no long term friendship in the making. We can still do our own things, and avoid any deliberate distractions by naming and belittling one another. If the urge to go on experimenting with new ideas now and then continues, (hopefully it will) I will pursue those goals. It's sad to learn that sharing the enthusiasm involved in new ideas with others, may be more difficult than was first thought to be a reasonable expectation.
Last edited by Duane Reese on 1 Aug 2010 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Allan Munro
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What ever else you may or may not manage to read into the various posts appearing in this thread, I will ask, clearly and simply, please may we see some pictures of the mechanism that forms part of your steel guitar. Curbside gold not withstanding, I would like to see what you have created.
Allan.....
Allan.....
Only nuts eat squirrels.
Television is the REAL opiate of the masses!
Television is the REAL opiate of the masses!
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Bill Hankey
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- Location: Pittsfield, MA, USA
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Bill Hankey
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- Joined: 13 Apr 2001 12:01 am
- Location: Pittsfield, MA, USA
Allan,
Years ago, I remember seeing several old timers who were living alone in cabins in the woods. Their income was referred to as "Old Age Pension". Most of them used a cane to get around in their bid to survive. They had no fancy clothing or furniture. It was more common in the days of my youth. When I drive by and see the furniture placed at the curbings, I recall those early days. The other day a solid mahogany table was placed at the curbing for pickup crews to haul away. I had just enough room in my hatchback to bring it on home. It was made from gorgeous finished solid mahogany. It appears to have been made recently by an instructor or a class act carpenter. The bottom line is that from it, could evolve ample wood to build 4-5 steel guitars. The grain is beautiful, measuring 32"x45"x1" overall. Plane the 1" down to standard thickness, and presto, all the wood required is there. The sides to accomodate angular legs are also there. Very expensive wood tossed away. I could have gathered hundreds of originally high priced broken down bicycles in the past say, 10 years. I've seen that many at curbings, and give away prices at tag sales. The parts to insure an accurate functioning cable steel do in fact come from a few used bicycle parts.
The secret to success is found by the use of SPOKE NIPPLES. Those little brass nipples are super ideal to pass the cables through. Pick a small drill size to enlarge the aperture, to allow for cable clearance. The procedure facilitates excellent adhering qualities due to the clean inner walls of the nipples after drilling. The big plus is found in the flared end of the nipple, preventing it from slipping through the bike rim. A person who is familiar with soldering would quickly see the advantages in that particular application. Those nipples will provide unbelievable accuracy
in predrilled apertures. The little cable adjusters are a must! You can do wonders by installing those for positive in line stops. All moving parts require lubrication. 5/16 round stock can be found easily in appliances, folding food trays and dozens of other sources. I have a large drawer full of round stock collected from various places. My steel will be the last one that I will put together. I can't believe how the years have slipped away.
Sorry about the spacing. It occurs the moment that I opt for corrections.
Years ago, I remember seeing several old timers who were living alone in cabins in the woods. Their income was referred to as "Old Age Pension". Most of them used a cane to get around in their bid to survive. They had no fancy clothing or furniture. It was more common in the days of my youth. When I drive by and see the furniture placed at the curbings, I recall those early days. The other day a solid mahogany table was placed at the curbing for pickup crews to haul away. I had just enough room in my hatchback to bring it on home. It was made from gorgeous finished solid mahogany. It appears to have been made recently by an instructor or a class act carpenter. The bottom line is that from it, could evolve ample wood to build 4-5 steel guitars. The grain is beautiful, measuring 32"x45"x1" overall. Plane the 1" down to standard thickness, and presto, all the wood required is there. The sides to accomodate angular legs are also there. Very expensive wood tossed away. I could have gathered hundreds of originally high priced broken down bicycles in the past say, 10 years. I've seen that many at curbings, and give away prices at tag sales. The parts to insure an accurate functioning cable steel do in fact come from a few used bicycle parts.
The secret to success is found by the use of SPOKE NIPPLES. Those little brass nipples are super ideal to pass the cables through. Pick a small drill size to enlarge the aperture, to allow for cable clearance. The procedure facilitates excellent adhering qualities due to the clean inner walls of the nipples after drilling. The big plus is found in the flared end of the nipple, preventing it from slipping through the bike rim. A person who is familiar with soldering would quickly see the advantages in that particular application. Those nipples will provide unbelievable accuracy
in predrilled apertures. The little cable adjusters are a must! You can do wonders by installing those for positive in line stops. All moving parts require lubrication. 5/16 round stock can be found easily in appliances, folding food trays and dozens of other sources. I have a large drawer full of round stock collected from various places. My steel will be the last one that I will put together. I can't believe how the years have slipped away.
Sorry about the spacing. It occurs the moment that I opt for corrections.
Last edited by Bill Hankey on 1 Aug 2010 3:37 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Allan Munro
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Excellent stuff Bill. Interesting too. Let me ask you once more for a picture or two of what you have achieved following this route. You mentioned a combination of cables and rods. Help out the understanding here on the forum with an illustration or two. I mean, what are you using for bell cranks for example? The process is started with your description of principles - now should come the logical conclusion - a few pictures. You have seen the kind of undercarriage pictures that I mean. I know you have - there must be hundreds of sets of those here on this forum. Follow through Bill, the taster is nice. How about the main course now. Blue does not suit me as a color and I am holding my breath here!
Oh, I should add that I am,slowly, slowly, designing and building a PSG. I have gained some EXCELLENT round stock for changer axles etc. by taking apart an HP printer that I got at a yard sale for $2, so, I am well versed in the principle that you illustrate.
Oh, I should add that I am,slowly, slowly, designing and building a PSG. I have gained some EXCELLENT round stock for changer axles etc. by taking apart an HP printer that I got at a yard sale for $2, so, I am well versed in the principle that you illustrate.
Only nuts eat squirrels.
Television is the REAL opiate of the masses!
Television is the REAL opiate of the masses!
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richard burton
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Bill's reference to bicycle spoke nipples got me to remebering that I used pop rivets (maybe they're called blind rivets in the US) to make a loop in the bike cable.
I knocked out and discarded the central pin from the rivet, then pushed the cable through the rivet, then looped the cable back through the rivet (the rivet had to be large enough to accept two cables through its aperture) then crimped the rivet in a vice
I knocked out and discarded the central pin from the rivet, then pushed the cable through the rivet, then looped the cable back through the rivet (the rivet had to be large enough to accept two cables through its aperture) then crimped the rivet in a vice
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Bill Hankey
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richard burton,
There are two reasons that I might choose to avoid crimping. If used in combination with soldering, I found that a more positive nonslipping connection can be made. Otherwise, there can be problems arising from cables that work loose by random crimpings. I think you would agree that there are many better methods of securing the cables. Allow the cable to slip through enough to pinch the tip flat before soldering. Of course this method is a positive proven no fail method to achieve successes in locking the cable in its proper place.
There are two reasons that I might choose to avoid crimping. If used in combination with soldering, I found that a more positive nonslipping connection can be made. Otherwise, there can be problems arising from cables that work loose by random crimpings. I think you would agree that there are many better methods of securing the cables. Allow the cable to slip through enough to pinch the tip flat before soldering. Of course this method is a positive proven no fail method to achieve successes in locking the cable in its proper place.
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Gene Jones
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Mac Knowles
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By the heck.....I think you guys are beating me at utilizing stuff that people put out at the sidewalk. I've got and used, lawnmowers, fans, computers, chairs, tables, breadmaker, Tv's, bikes, guitars, fiddles, keyboards...you name it. I've been building pedal steels for a real long time and I ain't afraid to use materials that were made for something else, but suit the need to a "T". I used bike cables to put two pedals on a lap steel for a guy....worked great. My first pedal steel I built in 1962, a D10 with 8/3 cost me less than $50.00...mostly for strings and bolts etc. I played it all over the place for about 30 years with very little problems. If you like the cable idea....got for it. I've built all-pull, pull-release, double changer, and a version of the PS210 guitars. I'm going back to pull-release with several new ideas. KISS principle. The less mechanics the better. I've just finished a keyless pull-release 12 string for myself with 3/5 and it's the best playing and sounding guitar I think I've ever made. You know what I used for leg attacments/anchors. Lovely brass 1/2" garden hose repair parts. Nice threaded couplings....sturdy, pretty, and cheap!
Have fun with the cables....never mind what the rest of us think!
Cheers,
Mac
Have fun with the cables....never mind what the rest of us think!
Cheers,
Mac
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Bent Romnes
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When Mac says it, you'd be smart to sit up and listen.
Mac has shared some of his knowledge on the Builder's Forum. He has so many unique and great ideas.
Take a look at the steels he makes here:
http://www.mkguitars.com/
Mac has shared some of his knowledge on the Builder's Forum. He has so many unique and great ideas.
Take a look at the steels he makes here:
http://www.mkguitars.com/
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/
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Willis Vanderberg
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Bill Hankey
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Mac Knowles,
I hadn't heard or read about you until now. I'm sure that you are aware of the changes that have taken place since you built your first steel guitar. There was a time that you could easily find a "cheap" car, or musical instrument at affordable prices. In the mid-sixties the Pittsfield Fire Dept. with the cooperation of the court systems forced owners of unregistered autos to pay to have them towed to an enterprising scrap metal dealer. A close estimate ranged near 500 autos towed. Can you imagine! Everything in automobiles is gold plated today. Scrap metal have reached never seen before prices. Consequently, those who own a pickup truck have become watchful by removing items that contained much of the hardware needed to build a steel guitar. They have you coming and going these days. Maintaining a good collection of springs is a wise move. Undersized brass tubings are good to keep in storage.
Many times, families will be clearing out bits and pieces of workshop items at tag sales. I mean to tell you, they are tickled pink to see collections of screws, nuts and bolts, you name it odds and ends leave the premises by the bucketfuls. Most folks who promote the sales, fully intend to clean house. Measuring tools will at times be offered.
Short cables control the all pull fingers on my steel. Those tapered bicycle nipples can be found both short and long. They move freely, as the short cables control the fingers movements the desired amount of distances of the E9th setup. Lowers are spring loaded, lowering achieved by releasing spring tension. Critical areas include stops and adjustments controlling the 4th and 8th strings that include two raises and one lower on both strings. That must be worked out with patience. Most of two years was spent messing around with short rods at the changer. Nothing that I've found compares with the short cable adjustments, (fine thread) at the changer end of the steel. The most frustrating feature in building a steel, (I believe) is discovering in trial runs, that it is not stable. It would require retuning after a few minutes of hard playing.
More on the subject of bell cranks, and cross shaft assemblies later. My steel features those necessary parts. They are no problem to make. Perhaps someone in the future will perform certain tests on both cables and rods to determine weaknesses in either of the two.
I hadn't heard or read about you until now. I'm sure that you are aware of the changes that have taken place since you built your first steel guitar. There was a time that you could easily find a "cheap" car, or musical instrument at affordable prices. In the mid-sixties the Pittsfield Fire Dept. with the cooperation of the court systems forced owners of unregistered autos to pay to have them towed to an enterprising scrap metal dealer. A close estimate ranged near 500 autos towed. Can you imagine! Everything in automobiles is gold plated today. Scrap metal have reached never seen before prices. Consequently, those who own a pickup truck have become watchful by removing items that contained much of the hardware needed to build a steel guitar. They have you coming and going these days. Maintaining a good collection of springs is a wise move. Undersized brass tubings are good to keep in storage.
Many times, families will be clearing out bits and pieces of workshop items at tag sales. I mean to tell you, they are tickled pink to see collections of screws, nuts and bolts, you name it odds and ends leave the premises by the bucketfuls. Most folks who promote the sales, fully intend to clean house. Measuring tools will at times be offered.
Short cables control the all pull fingers on my steel. Those tapered bicycle nipples can be found both short and long. They move freely, as the short cables control the fingers movements the desired amount of distances of the E9th setup. Lowers are spring loaded, lowering achieved by releasing spring tension. Critical areas include stops and adjustments controlling the 4th and 8th strings that include two raises and one lower on both strings. That must be worked out with patience. Most of two years was spent messing around with short rods at the changer. Nothing that I've found compares with the short cable adjustments, (fine thread) at the changer end of the steel. The most frustrating feature in building a steel, (I believe) is discovering in trial runs, that it is not stable. It would require retuning after a few minutes of hard playing.
More on the subject of bell cranks, and cross shaft assemblies later. My steel features those necessary parts. They are no problem to make. Perhaps someone in the future will perform certain tests on both cables and rods to determine weaknesses in either of the two.