The Steel Guitar Forum

Bands I play with always mangle cover tunes so nobody will know what they are..

I'm against copyright laws.

And ASCAP/BMI.

It's like having to pay every worker on a freeway project every time you drive or the logger/millworker everytime you walk into your house.

Some of them are a lot more creative than the writers of about a half million songs I've heard..

Besides all the stories about big names that bought songs for a hundred bucks from some poor guy and then figure they'll retire on their "investment".. Willie?

I wonder if Tootsies or Roberts' pays ASCAP/BMI when they don't pay the union cardholders in bands that work there..

So many thing I wonder about..



EJL

If a band writes and records a hit song and makes a killing on record sales and radio airplay why do they need to continue getting more money every time its played by some bar band? After all, when bar bands do covers its great advertisement for the original artist. I'll bet lots of record sales have been generated by bar bands reminding people of how much they used to love that song so they go out and buy it (again).
Most bar bands need to play covers and many bar owners can not afford those royalty fees. Most cover tunes are songs that already generated good money for all those involved years ago. We're talking about losing gigs because of this process aren't we?
I paint houses to make them look good. Should I be paid every time people look at them?

One good thing came out of this in that he canceled the DJ also.

I wonder if the artist/songwriter gets any of the $$$ generated by fines & license's leveed upon the (non-belongers)that ASCAP collects?If they do ,I'll bet its a very small percentage & ASCAP keeps the biggest portion.

Which came first the musician or ASCAP? Without us their nothing........

I read an article about ASCAP closing down a girl scout camp for singing copyrighted matrl. around the campfire,some place in Cal. if I remember right.They were threatened with a huge fine.I think they dropped the lawsuit after some negotiations by the scouts lawyer.






ASCAP vs. GIRL SCOUTS: The Best Things in Life Aren't Free, or, Why You Might Be Better Off If You Wind Up Paying for Those Campfire Singalongs
(Expanded from the National Law Journal, March 10, 1997)
by James V. DeLong
[Drawing by Russell Christian, Tel/Fax: (718) 499-5187. Used by permission.]

One of the great quarrels of this era of the Internet is whether rights in intellectual property should be constricted in response to new technological realities. I vote "no," and to support this view I cite what looks like an awfully tough case for my side, the recent flap involving American Society of Composers, Authors and Publishers and 3 million girl scouts.

Under copyright law, a song writer is entitled to a fee for each public performance. Because the costs of negotiating millions of transactions would be prohibitive, society invented a system: Composers join ASCAP or a similar organization, which sells a blanket rights that permit users to play music by any of its members. ASCAP has always collected fees from radio and TV stations, clubs, concerts and other major users. Recently, it has gone on the offensive against smaller users, including restaurants rodeos, stores, even funeral homes. In the fall of 1996, this offensive tangled ASCAP in a public relations disaster.

It notified 8,000 summer camps that they must pay for using ASCAP songs in public performances. The meaning of "public performance," a term of art under copyright law, was not specified, but some camps interpreted it as covering any use, including the good old campfire singalong. Girl Scout Camps in California decided to purge their songbooks of such works as Puff, the Magic Dragon. The press got hold of the story, and the headline punsters had some fun with "The Birds May Sing, But Campers Can't Unless They Pay Up;" "Campfire Churls;" and other jokes. [For the details of the affair, see articles by Lisa Bannon, Wall Street Journal, Aug. 21, 1996, p. A1; Ken Ringle, Washington Post, Aug. 24, 1996, p. B1, & Aug. 28, 1996, p. C3; Elisabeth Bumiller, New York Times, Dec. 17, 1996, p. B1.]

ASCAP retreated, taking out ads saying that it loves the Girl Scouts, and, to be gender-equal, the Boy Scouts, too. If you read the ads closely, ASCAP gave not a whit on its substantive position, but it stanched the hemorrhage of bad ink.

The ASCAP tale is useful because it captures so much of the ambiguity inherent in intellectual property. Those who were furious at ASCAP made some good points. Song writers draw heavily on the efforts of other people, such as those who invented the musical notation used to put songs into marketable form, a rich tradition of folk music written without benefit of copyright, and old works no longer covered. The composers are tapping into a sort of cultural commons without which their efforts would be bootless, and they have no right to appropriate it. An ingenious reporter contacted Pete Seeger, the folk singer, who said that "music really comes from and belongs to everyone." His father was a musicologist who judged that even Beethoven's music was about 90 percent musical tradition and 10 percent his own. Besides, we suspect that a composer actually benefits from the campfire singing. The more his music enters the great collective consciousness, the more often it will be performed in formal settings and the more money he will make. For him to attack the use of music by the people seems perverse as well as chintzy.

On the other hand, song writers do have to make a living. If there were no way to get paid, composers would lack not only the incentive, but the time and energy to write, since they would have to make a living some other way. Music may belong to the people, but Pete Seeger himself holds over 200 copyrights, including Where Have All the Flowers Gone? and his royalties are respectable. And why shouldn't he have the pleasure of collecting them, in exchange for the pleasure his work gives us? And even if Beethoven was only 10 percent original, what a 10 percent! Maybe ASCAP is right -- "Well, little girl, I would like to let you sing Puff for free, but that would cheat you because then fewer such songs would get written; since I cannot bear to deprive you, off to the slammer with you."

The essence of copyright law is the effort to find a reasonable way to divide this baby, and it is not easy. Lots of lawyers make a living mulling over "fair use," "public performance," and other concepts. It is indeed a little hard to see a participatory singalong as a public performance. But leaving aside this issue, in the end, and contrary to your initial instinct, on this dispute you should go with ASCAP on the basic moral principle involved. It would never occur to anyone to say that Girl Scouts should get sheet music free from the local music store, or guitars. Why should the music itself, the true core of value, be free just because it is intangible?

The real problem is not principle, but price. ASCAP started out demanding upwards of $1200 per season per camp, and came down to about $250. In a frictionless free market, one without transaction costs in which campers could get composers to bid against one another, the price of using a song would go into free fall, down to pennies. ASCAP's real mistake was not in asserting its members' moral right to charge, but their right to charge a monopoly rate.

This distinction is crucial, because the computer revolution is changing the possibilities drastically. Before too long it may be possible to check on the cost of the rights to any of the four million songs on the ASCAP list by touching a button, and the frictionless market will be close to reality. It might cost 2 cents to sing Puff, payable over the Internet, or you might learn that the composer, like the Grateful Dead, believes in giving away performance rights for occasions such as singalongs. Whatever. The key point is that as long as the forces of competition are working, the creation of clear, enforceable rights in intellectual property will work to the long-term benefit of Girl Scouts as well as composers. Problems caused by transitory problems of transaction costs or monopoly pricing should not obscure this fundamental truth.

Dale,

Would you be okay if you played a riff on a record which was then sampled by someone and used on a hit record and they gave you nothing?

It is the same thing.

I think what many fail to realize is that without the intellectual property laws, you wouldn't have most of the songs that you like to play. Merle Haggard, for instance, if you read his bio: he started writing songs because someone told him that was the way you created an annuity for when he retired. He wouldn't have become a songwriter otherwise.

Most of the great songs you play are written by professional songwriters. These guys get into it just so they have something to live on and leave behind.

Complaining about it is pointless. These laws have been on the books for a long time for a reason: they protect intellectual property on a wide variety of fronts.

It reminds me of a funny story. The only time I can remember of an ASCAP representitive approaching a club owner was on a day we were practicing at this club.This well dressed guy came up to me and asked if we played there nightly. I told him 6 nights a week..The guy sat down had a coke then asked to talk to the owner or manager.After he had his conversation I remember hearing the conversation getting louder by the Owner. The guy got up with his brief case and left quite hurriedly..When I asked the Owner what that was all about he told me the guy was shaking him down for fees..This particular owner was shall we say does Sopranos give you a clue? I guess an offer was made that could not be refused.It was the only time I ever heard of any approaches in that particular area..

Eric West wrote:
I wonder if Tootsies or Roberts' pays ASCAP/BMI when they don't pay the union cardholders in bands that work there..

EJL

It's not against the law to not use UNION musicians, it is against the law to not pay Music Fee's...

I have run across several clubs through the years that did not want to employ union musicians for whatever the reason, probably some local Union rep tried to strong arm them. I was a local member up in Ct and it was run by a bunch of thugs, a real bunch of Tony Soprono's. I was doing a non-union gig in Stamford Ct once and a union guy came in a tried to shut the place down, it was a dance in a Hotel. The Hotel called the Police and they came and threw the guy out after a 30 minute argument over "turf " .

OK,

Here's the monkey wrench.

What about countless TRADITIONAL songs?

Shouldn't ASCAP or BMI investigate and get to the bottom of these TRAD: songs and find out who actually wrote/created these songs?

Somebody or somebodies came up with those tunes. It seems it's just laziness when it comes to finding the creator of some long-lost song. Easier to lump it in the TRAD: pile, I guess.

There's probably million$ in lost TRAD: revenue.

And, just who is it that deems a song TRADITIONAL?

Mr Chris Ledrew sorry if you think that i have insulted every songwriter in the usa that pays the lineing of my gigging pockets oh well!Seriously if a song writer sells his songs to a famous artist he gets his royalty's off that paticular song,not to mention all the airplay the songs get on the radio,and all the money they make from touring.Lately a lot of the old song are getting remade too.Look at it from my point of veiw,the artist is the one making all the money and i sit in a bar every night behind a steel guitar trying to put food on the table for my family go figure it's all about politics.

A fun, and somewhat related rant by Phil Alvin of The Blasters on the music biz - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sd994qtXMJQ

I agree with him - he may be crazy, but he's not lyin'.

Look at it this way,without these artists,and song writers,we would be sitting on a bandstand with nothing to do.another view you work all week at your job and come payday you are handed a check,then somebody takes it from you,its gone and this happens week after week.,have you ever copied a cd and gave it to a friend who in turn gives it to more friends or when on a pier to pier site and downloaded a song or cd for free,lost paycheck..think about it ,this country got where it is today,trying to live cheap and buy it cheap or for nothing ,somebody has to spend money to make work for other people ,the higher the cost the better the product is in most cases and if its made here the money stays here or it used to,look and see where its all going now. MHO

I don't think it's a written enforced "Law" at least by any police force. Nor is it against the Law to not pay ASCAP. Anything against the Law can result in arrest.As a member of ASCAP since way back I'd say its really shooting themselves in the foot by closing down all these clubs.I never feel sorry for Club owners as they are never sorry to cheat musicians. .As far as the Jukebox in clubs goes the person who owns the Jukebox most of the time an amusement company already pays the correct fees to ASCAP BMI. Whats lost here is the bands who are working these clubs doing covers are helping the popularity of the song thus people go out and buy the original record..When someone records and covers the original the writer gets paid again same thing with Airplay..No one plays unpopular songs theres no living to be made in it.Besides its the publishing Companies who continue to make $$$$

Joe Casey wrote:I don't think it's a written enforced "Law" at least by any police force. Nor is it against the Law to not pay ASCAP. Anything against the Law can result in arrest.As a member of ASCAP since way back I'd say its really shooting themselves in the foot by closing down all these clubs.I never feel sorry for Club owners as they are never sorry to cheat musicians. .As far as the Jukebox in clubs goes the person who owns the Jukebox most of the time an amusement company already pays the correct fees to ASCAP BMI. Whats lost here is the bands who are working these clubs doing covers are helping the popularity of the song thus people go out and buy the original record..When someone records and covers the original the writer gets paid again same thing with Airplay..No one plays unpopular songs theres no living to be made in it.Besides its the publishing Companies who continue to make $$$$

Joe's right.It's a civil matter,and law enforcement generally doesn't get involved.And whatever royalties get paid to ASCAP-and songwriters-are a mosquito bite compared to what we DON'T earn because of what law enforcement DOES get involved with- extorting our customers.Talk about Tony Soprano!

Ransom Beers wrote:I wonder if the artist/songwriter gets any of the $$$ generated by fines & license's leveed upon the (non-belongers)that ASCAP collects?If they do ,I'll bet its a very small percentage & ASCAP keeps the biggest portion.

ASCAP and BMI are completely NON-profit, they cannot keep what is collected, it all goes to copyright holders and payroll.

Eric West wrote:
(1)I'm against copyright laws.......

(2)It's like having to pay every worker on a freeway project every time you drive or the logger/millworker everytime you walk into your house.

(3)Some of them are a lot more creative than the writers of about a half million songs I've heard..

(4) Besides all the stories about big names that bought songs for a hundred bucks from some poor guy and then figure they'll retire on their "investment".. Willie?

(5) I wonder if Tootsies or Roberts' pays ASCAP/BMI when they don't pay the union cardholders in bands that work there..

(6) So many thing I wonder about..



EJL

(1) As a songwriter I'm not. Would you expect a mechanic to work on your car without getting paid? The clubs SHOULD have to pay licensing fees, but the CLUB should pay those, not the bands.

(2)In essence you are. Those freeway workers are paid today for their work, from money to be collected later by taxes etc.

(3) "Hey doc, it hurts when I do this"...........

(4) To quote a WELL known hit songwriter buddy of mine, "Half of somethin is better than all of nothin." If you're starvin, that couple hundred bucks might keep you alive long enough to write another hit.

(5) Anyone who knows Nashville/Broadway politics can attest to the fact that Tootsies and Roberts shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence. Jesse (the owner of Roberts) IS a musician, and CARES about musicians. Steve, the owner of Tootsies isn't and doesn't. With that said, you can generally make more money working Tootsies than you can Roberts. Btw, Tennessee is a right to work state. The next batch of green peas off the Greyhound will get the gig if you pass. The base pay per shift hasn't gone up (much) in nearly 40 years, and probably won't anytime soon. The tips however are what you make of them. I used to leave sometimes owing money to the bar after my tab, and have also left with almost $500 in my pocket after a four hour shift.
I agree with you. It ain't cool that the club owners make a killing and the pickers scrape by. The pickers on Broad even have to buy their own drinks. Full price for a beer!!! But, you CAN make a living working there, and work is work.

(6) You know more than you let on my friend, lol.

Joe Casey wrote:I don't think it's a written enforced "Law" at least by any police force. Nor is it against the Law to not pay ASCAP. Anything against the Law can result in arrest.As a member of ASCAP since way back I'd say its really shooting themselves in the foot by closing down all these clubs.I never feel sorry for Club owners as they are never sorry to cheat musicians. .As far as the Jukebox in clubs goes the person who owns the Jukebox most of the time an amusement company already pays the correct fees to ASCAP BMI. Whats lost here is the bands who are working these clubs doing covers are helping the popularity of the song thus people go out and buy the original record..When someone records and covers the original the writer gets paid again same thing with Airplay..No one plays unpopular songs theres no living to be made in it.Besides its the publishing Companies who continue to make $$$$

The "Copyright Royalty and Distribution Reform Act of 2004" is a Federal Law passed by congress and the senate. You can face fines and prison for refusing to paying.

You know more than you let on my friend, lol.

Hhheeeehehe...

Don't overestimate me..



I saw the Musicians work for Tips sign at Roberts too.. and I think a couple of the guys had some kind of 'card'..

Anyhow, If the mechanic is a good one, I only want to pay him for one repair once..

I know it's got a lot of angles, but WTF...

If somebody got hired because their perspective boss like the way they whistled "What was I thinkin," would Dierks be due a piece of the action, or would ASCAP come out and rip your lips off....

Anyhow just wanted to see some of the feedback on my "Stories" in that section.

My birthday this year brings a lot more serious things to reflect apon than regular catfight subjects..

Enjoy it.

It's a subject with a lot of interesting angles for sure.

Don't nobody shoot..... -Bill Muny-

EJL

Does this mean that You Tube is paying fees/royalties for all the "covers" of songs performed on the internet?

Steve Branscom wrote:Does this mean that You Tube is paying fees/royalties for all the "covers" of songs performed on the internet?

Google, the folks who own YouTube, have a deal with PROs and do pay them.

Eric West wrote:
Anyhow, If the mechanic is a good one, I only want to pay him for one repair once..

Songwriters get $0.091 per song per CD, and about $0.0000019 for every radio air play or performance of the song per person. So if you heard a song on the radio a couple of times and then purchased the song, then the songwriter didn't even earn a dime from you.
I would be willing to bet that you paid your mechanic more than a dime to do repairs. Songwriters don't get paid a big lump sum like that, they make their income pennies at a time.
Now if you were to make a deal with your mechanic and tell him you were going to pay off the repair bill by giving him 9.1 cents when you got the vehicle back and .0000019 cents every time you started up your vehicle, that would be the same as how songwriters get paid. Think your mechanic would go for that?

Well said.

deleted, answered my own question. Thanks Alvin

I guess Songwriters need a better union? lol ..Now everyone can really see the sad state of the music world..Millions are made by labels,producers,publishers,Artist all but the one who invented the song.. All the Above live in Mansions..While the Writer lives where he barely can afford..It's not the fault of the Cover bands,the Clubs or the public..The writer is the bottom feeder low man on the totem pole. Musicians generally buy the CD's they are learning to cover.It's the system of money distribution that needs to be redone. No one makes a penny on an unwritten song.Nowadays songs are being written like an assembly line situation..Only the piece work rate has not improved. Are Ascap field reps out there making songwriters eat better?..We all know what hit becomes when you put an S in front of it.