The Steel Guitar Forum

Mike--positive reinforcement/encouragement was absolutely the best--good move!! ken

Let's break this down to a mathematical formula......


Constructive Critiscism = you suck + here's why

So, receiving constructive criticism from a total stranger , while playing on a gig is a good thing ? What if they just SAY they are a skilled player ....???.

It seems like you did the right thing, Mike. You can also offer to show the new player some things too, if you are willing to do so.

Once when I had only been playing steel for a few years,I had a sitdown gig where you leave your rig set up in a honky-tonk for months at a time and one night I came in and sat down to find a note taped to my C6 neck that said "GO HOME AND PRACTICE" - which I did. But I've had close friends who happen to be some of the very best steel players in L.A. tell me my tone is muddy and not cutting thru the band,that I'm not sticking to the melody enough or sounding too much like a 6-string guitar(my first instrument)and not enough like a pedal steel and a couple other things. I never took it any other way than thinking they were trying to help me be a better player.

Tony Prior wrote:So, receiving constructive criticism from a total stranger , while playing on a gig is a good thing ? What if they just SAY they are a skilled player ....???.

Tony, for me personally, if they play steel there is a HIGH probability they know more than myself. I dunno, Im up for it, i can see how more experienced players would not be for sure.

What i get mostly is people who are totally unfamiliar with the instrument thinking I am awesome and complimenting me. Thats great, not complaining. But one time a more experienced steel player saw me play and afterwards said "Hey nice job, you sounded real good up there. Maybe a little less vibrato next time?". I really liked that, appreciated that, and took it into consideration and thought about it in my playing. but in that instance I DID know the guy and had seen him play before....so yeah not the same thing as what Mike is talking about.

If I was the advice giver, I wouldnt give the advice cause you never know how someone will take it. But as the potential advice receiver , me personally, I would LOVE the help....even at a gig.

Personally,I feel that, constructive criticism, in no matter what we do, belongs between the instructor and the student or between really close friends, who, are at ease with each other. There are too many egos, that, bruise rather quickly when unwanted criticism comes at them, especially steel players. I don't care for C.C. when it comes from someone, who's a stranger to me. On the other hand, I'll take any criticisms from someone I respect.

I think that it's also matter of tact. If somebody comes off as arrogant, and says "Hey, I'm a hot shot player and your playing sucks, let me show you how it's done," of course the other player will get angry and resentful.

On the other hand, if the more experienced player simply offers to help, and asks the other one, without criticizing, "Would like some tips," the less experienced player might gratefully accept.

I think if the initial situation came up again, I might take the latter approach, but if I did, I'd tread very lightly while doing so.

Tact and the correct situation, and how the message is voiced, is the thing.

If a player comes up to you and says something candidly about your playing that hurts your feelings, it's because in your heart of hearts, you probably believe it's true.

Years ago (1971) I was playing the Palomino and Jay Dee Maness walked up to me and said "you're sliding the bar to get vibrato. You'd sound better if you rolled the bar."

I wasn't offended, it was a frank message from a musician I admired. I took it to heart and improved my playing. Jay Dee and I are still very good friends.

Hi Mike,

I agree it is all in the approach. I have gone up to guys and commented that I play steel and always like to meet a fellow steel player. Most of the time a new friendship is formed and we get together later and share licks and help one another. Some guys are cocky but more often than not you will make a friend for life. Tactful encouragement is the key. That is pretty much how I learned to play buy picking everyones brain I meet. I think constructive feedback and critisim is a good thing, yea some will be offended but in the proper spirit it will be apprecaited and well received.

All the best,

Jerry

Sliding..Rolling???
Thanx for the tip Herb and Jaydee!
And it didn't hurt a bit!!

Buddy Emmons has heard me play and never said anything yay or nay, so that's probably the definitive answer. OTOH, Lynn Owsley told Buddy at the Midnight Jamboree that he really liked what he (Buddy) was trying to play.

I once told a guy that the run he had just finished was great...........he replied: "You should'a heard what I was thinking"!

What Paul said. Jody.

My feelings are, it would all depend on who the one was offering the advice, and how well I felt they played.

So, if I didn't know the person coming up to me and simply saying he/she was this or that, (I've heard that many times) I'd probably just say: Got your picks with ya? "As we all know, good players 'ALWAYS'
have their picks within quick reach!" Especially! When they are bar hopping. If the answer was no, I'd probably say, glad you stopped in. Hope you enjoy the music. Or, if yes, got them right here in my pocket. Then here, sit down and I'll go sit with the ladies.

In other words, I think you did right by not offering advice, that wasn't asked for in the first place, if the person didn't know you, and had never heard you play.

I think you should have asked if he (or the group) would mind if you sat in for a couple of songs. Then if he/she liked your playing, it would probably go a whole lot better, and they might even ask you for your advice, on how you found their playing to be. That's when the door would be open for your offer of advice.

I've heard many, that I'd not want any of their (so called) playing techniques. I think anyone who's done any amount of playing have all (at one time or another) heard these types of folks.

I guess I should have been from Missouri, as in: "Show me, what you (may) have to offer, by what I hear in your own playing, then we'll talk about my playing, and what you think it needs.

Well, if you introduce yourself as Mike Perlowin before offering the constructive criticism, then there's the following options: either the steel player hasn't heard of you, in which case back off because there's no point; or he or she has heard of you and is not interested, in which case, see option one; or he or she has, and is smart enough to know there is something to be learned, in which case -- go ahead and give a free lesson.

Giving unsolicited "constructive criticism" to someone you don't know, or only know very vaguely, would demonstrate a complete lack of tact and manners. If, OTOH, the player walked up and said "I saw you watching - are you a steel player?" - that's an "ice breaker"....but STILL not an invitation. If he/she ASKS you for your opinion or help, then fine - go for it, but gently. NEVER point out what someone is doing wrong, ever. That's the ultimate sin and what shatters the definition of "constructive". If you can tell a player (again, when ASKED) a better way to do something (and keep in mind, that's a subjective point in itself - your "better" may not be his if he's stylistically different) that fine, as long as you NEVER use his example as "the wrong way".

And I would venture to guess(based on 4+ decades of experience) that 90% of the players who feel they *should* provide constructive criticism should get up and leave after the set and not say a word - because those with a need to point out errors are almost universally the ones who do it wrong.

Caveat - if a top player came up and introduced himself,offered (first) a compliment and then ASKED "would you like a couple of tips?" the player should look at that as a gift....but not one he's obligated to accept. He may think said "top player" is just puffing his ego, or may have read negative things about him. If so, he has every right to refuse - and Mr. "top player" should have the class to back off graciously.

But players who do mostly local gigs and are unknown to much of the steel world (the whole steel world does not frequent...or even visit...this forum) should probably use discretion, not say a word, and tactfully head out the door.

I taught High school years ago, and have taught guitar, bass and mandolin off and on for years - I never, ever point out a mistake to a player. I never tell him/her that something is being done wrong. Instead, I'll use phrases like "Ok, that was cool. Now how about trying it *this* way? I've observed other teachers while they gave lessons, and cringe when I hear "stop - ok, now back up...you missed this part, and the beat shifted...etc etc etc". The student comes away with little sense of accomplishment, and even less self worth.

The "constructive criticism" method creates a control situation, and often control freaks are the ones with a need to say something - anything - to every player they see.

"Constructive guidance" doesn't in any way imply the player did something wrong (according to YOUR rules of right and wrong) - it just shows them an alternative approach without ANY negative comments at all.

As a teaching method it's been proven far more productive. I think part of the problem is most guitar (of any type) teachers are good players who have been asked by players to teach them, and expanded the scope of their teaching.

The problem is, most have little or no background in education, the dynamics of criticism, or psychology. Those folks, along with players suffering from control issues, are, unfortunately, the ones who usually approach players they don
't know - and what they THINK is "tact" is a rocket-propelled grenade to the noggin of the "victim".

PS - if someone told me my playing sounded too much like 6-string guitar I'd take it as a compliment,since that's an integral part of my playing. In a case like that, the player offering "constructive criticism" is either going to be confused, pissed off, or both....

Mike Perlowin said:

All I said to the guy was that I played too, and he sounded really good. That's all. Nothing more.

Mike, IMHO you said the right thing.

Mike, You did the right thing. There are so few steel players let alone ones that play in bands, I just introduce myself and you might get a chance to get to know them better and a chance to give advise if asked or learn if needed.
Terry

Herb Steiner wrote:Tact and the correct situation, and how the message is voiced, is the thing.

Years ago (1971) I was playing the Palomino and Jay Dee Maness walked up to me and said "you're sliding the bar to get vibrato. You'd sound better if you rolled the bar."

I wasn't offended, it was a frank message from a musician I admired. I took it to heart and improved my playing. Jay Dee and I are still very good friends.

Would Jay Dee gone up to John Hughey and said to him "Your sliding the bar to get vibato. You'd sound better if you rolled the bar." Or if I told Bobbe, you know you should use finger picks Joe

I think constructive criticism is a great thing if it is asked for and in the right inviroment. IMHO, if you can't say anything good about a persons playing, keep you mouth shut. If it is a stranger playing then you may tell them you are a player also, and believe me, if they want criticism they'll ask for it.

I once had a great fiddle player that was playing in the same contest with me, come up and say, son your gonna be good someday but you need to work on your bowing and your playing too many notes. When the contest was over, I beat him. I went up to him and said, I'll teach you some of those notes and bowing sometime. He was a good sport and laughed about it. That was a rare case where it backfired on someone.

I have always been able to find something good about anyones playing, no mater what their skill level is, and I always try to let them know, even if all I can say is, that sure is a pretty guitar you got there.

Joe
In 1971 I had only been conscientously playing about 3 or 4 years, and I certainly wasn't at the level of John Hughey. I also was not so full of myself that I was unable to accept an unsolicited but extremely helpful suggestion from a player I admired very much.

So what, if any, is the point of your post?

This is a waste of time to discuss here. We are all adults and we deal with people in our everyday lives. Discussions between steel players are no different than between truck drivers, engineers, accoutants, or anyone else. As civilized adults, we should have enough sense to know how to handle these situations on an individual basis.

How's that for constructive criticism?

once again I see we can all agree.

Jaydee told me and a bunch of other beginner steelers that there was something on the steel he could learn from each and every one of us in the room. I had only been playing for a month at that time.

I respect that outlook and share it...everyone has something they can show me.

That said again I wouldnt say anything to anyone ever unless asked, people are just too easily hurt and thin skinned and some it seems are too invested in the instrument as ego boost or whatever. Man , I dont care who you are, unless your name rhymes with Muddy Lemmons there is someone out there better than you that you can learn a thing or two from. This aint a competition to me.

This is a waste of time to discuss here. We are all adults and we deal with people in our everyday lives. Discussions between steel players are no different than between truck drivers, engineers, accoutants, or anyone else. As civilized adults, we should have enough sense to know how to handle these situations on an individual basis.

How's that for constructive criticism?

Same deal in a gym. Say you've been working out for years, training with real bodybuilders, and can bench press 275 or so. You see a kid struggling with a weight that's too heavy for him to handle safely, wobbling and bouncing it off his sternum to get it back up. Do you say something to him? I never did, unless I'm on the staff at the gym.