The Steel Guitar Forum

Sorry Dave, after reading your post more carefully it looks like you're hitting on a few of the same things that I mentioned.

-Jeff

I played the Little O' Oprey tonight and just happened to remember this thread and took note of where my right elbow was while playing and it was all the way in against my side so I guess I am good there. It works for me. The thing that troubles me most about this thread is the reference to Joe Wright. If you know the same Joe Wright that I know and I have played many many shows with with him I don't see how you could find him not up to par with anyone you can name. I am not putting anyone down but I am not sure that Joe Wright has any limits. I believe he can do anything he wants to on his guitar, play anyone's lick, style or burn it up and the thing that is amazing he does it so effortless. He can be making eye contact with someone in the audience or making some funny face at them and play stuff that most of us only dream of. I know this is completely off topic but I believe Joe is twice the player he is given credit for being. Maybe the comedy act somehow causes some to not take his playing seriously. I know for a fact that anyone who uses his material and works at it can become a fine player if they have an ounce of talent.
Jerry

Many a "steelman" assumes a stoic persona, meditating upon his fretboard. Joe Wright is a "showman", as well as a master picker !
Rick

Jeff - I think you're right about how critical the brain's involvement is, and your angle is a bit different than mine. I think learning happens through both conscious and unconscious action, but both are heavily brain involved.

Jerry - I also noted the negative comparison about Joe. This I don't understand - he really is a fine player. There are definitely players on most any instrument that don't follow one particular "standard playing orthodoxy" but who nonetheless become world-class players. In fact, I think it could be argued that their playing techniques could be, for some people, one of the archetype technique models they work through as they learn.

In other words - I think it would be a mistake to insist that there is one and only one reasonable technique model. To me, the best teachers in any field are aware of many approaches to a problem as well as their advantages and disadvantages, and can help students understand why they should proceed in one direction or another.

BTW, I have worked with two (IMHO) excellent teachers - one on guitar (Dave Klein) and one on pedal steel (Mike Sweeney). They both have good ideas about technique that I found useful, but are also very much aware of competing ideas. The goals were always musical, with technique the servant of the music.

Amen...to Jerry Rollers observation of Joe Wright.

Joe Wright is, by anyone's definition who knows him, a glaring exception to all rules regarding generally accepted hand/body position on steel guitar.

Of course, the proof is in the pudding... in these examples, what comes out of the amplifier. The fly in the ointment is that few amongst us, if any, have the talent, the creativity, and the physical discipline of Joe Wright. Joe, already a great player, improved his technique by studying body kinetics to overcome some physical ailments he was experiencing, and therein lies the rub.

Excuse my use of cliche's in the paragraph above. I usually avoid them like the plague.

In the "GOD" world, there are a great variety of belief systems...and each will tell you something different about what is "correct or incorrect".

In the "political" world there are a great variety of belief systems...and each will tell you something different about what is "correct or incorrect".

In the "music" world..."instrument" world..."culture" world...etc.

Jeff N had a mission...he did what he could with it...helped a lot of people, and made a living from it.

Joe Wright is a geneous/genious...does a lot of things well , is a quick study, and also is top of the PSG playing heap. He is unconventional re his setup and approach.

I once saw a jam where Jeff, Herby, and Joe went at it. Jeff got up and left...I don't know what his reasoning was.

In general, to learn something, search the field info for what each "publish or perish" wizard says...learn the jargon and arithmetic, choose the methods that fit your frame for what you want to do (type of musical sound you want).

Watch the "wizards"...picks and fingers are all over the place; Pick angles are all over the place...finger attack angles are all over the place...thumb picks up by the joint- out at the end...ring and little fingers bent under- extended straight out- gripping the outer strings- touching the edge of the neck block. Choose what fits you!

Good teaching encourages one to learn on their own...not just copy the teachers mechanics.

I love to watch Mr. Jerry Roller play--you are unbelievable, the music you squeeze out of your Emmons. And I admire your technique that takes you there.

I also have utmost respect for Joe Wright, and am a little disappointed in the negative tone some have used about Joe. The thing most don't understand about Joe, is that he can play any technique he wants. I've seen him play with elbo in, OR elbo out, pick block OR palm block Or combination. Joe can SMOKE us all on pedal steel by accident. He can carry on a conversation with somebody as he tears up some incredible lead passage. If you want to travel the same musical paths Joe has been down, you'd better sharpen your pencil, bring some lunch money and a sleeping bag, 'cause your gonna be there a long long while. I've gotten soooo much out of Joe's dvd's. They have really helped me look at playing in so many ways. I too, can play with my elbo out--but my dexterity quits until I bring that elbo in. I don't have dexterity to spare. Joe does.

I'd also comment, one of the biggest principles Joe teaches, is that it's about muscle memory. It's not about "do what's comfy, it will eventually show up" It's about "get out of your comfort zone, turn it into MUSCLE MEMORY, and MAKE IT your comfort zone." Joe emphasises the moves you will need to play pedal steel. Go there, if you dare.

I've been trying to stay out of this. But, James is on the right track with the muscle memory comments.

Those techniques that require you to do things that seem difficult at first, will become second nature with practice. Then, you can forget about them, relax, and concentrate on the music. No amount of concentrating on the music, will make music happen at any level, without the amount of practice required to achieve that level. It will of course sound better, work better and be easier, when you are relaxed. But, it takes a certain amount of work to get to the stage that you con play at the level you are happy with, and be relaxed doing it.

Everyone does not require the same amount of work to get to the same level of ability, nor does everyone wish to achieve the same level of musical ability. This is fine, as long as you are happy with the result.

I'm sure that we all had to think quite a bit about walking at first when we were toddlers. Some of us are happy just to get from place to place, and some of us learned to run and jump. Just because it was so long ago when we learned, and we take it for granted now, even simple tasks such as walking, are things we all had to work hard on at some point in our lives.

I don't remember "working" to learn to walk or talk. The term "work" implies the presence of frustrations and expectations. I don't remember my parents ever getting upset at me for not learning to walk before the other kids. "Work" happens when we get older and get frustrated because we're not getting in fast enough. I totally agree with the need to develop the necessary muscle memory on any instrument to make it automatic. However, concentrating on the music while you develop that muscle memory won't detract from your development. On another note, Jeff Newman and Joe Wright are both superb players and teachers, which proves there's more than one "correct" way to go about it. I've learned a great deal from both of them, and am very thankful for all the time they put into this wonderful instrument that we all love.

-Jeff

After reading my own writing I realized I wasn't being all that specific about something. When I say "concentrate on the music", I really mean your concept. In other words, concentrate on how "you want it to sound". I'm sure we all want to sound better than we do, and that's a good thing. It keeps us striving to get better. As long as our concept is better than us, we have somewhere to go. I think it's a good thing to concentrate on what you want, and not as much on what you're getting. Concentrating on what you're getting gets you more of exactly that. It's obviously o.k. to be aware of what you're getting, as long as it doesn't become the focus.

-Jeff

Jeff, I think several of us are arguing different sides of the same point here. You say you don't remember working to walk or talk. That is part of my point. I'm sure that you thought about it plenty and worked hard at it for a while before you got it down. Then, you could forget about it, and concentrate on that item on the shelf that your mom thought was safely out of your reach. As you got more mobility, your folks put things higher, until they just had to put them out of sight, because if you could see them, you had learned to get to them.
Your explaination of work involving frustration over expectations, is the hardest part of teaching adults. Children have no expectations, or fears that they will not be able to do anything, until adults start telling them they can't do stuff. I would hope that your parents did not make you feel as if you were not learning to walk fast enough for them! I would also hope that no one gets mad at you for not learning to play fast enough.
If we stop inflicting ourselves with these sorts of predetermined expectations, and be happy with our own progress, and stop comparing ourselves to the music gods, we will make better music, that makes us happier. Just keep setting small goals and getting better and be happy with that.
But, you have to have a goal. And of course the sound is the goal. Who amongst us had the first sound out of his first steel, match his preconcieved ideal steel sound?
Of course we all start out with the musical sound formost in our thought process. Thats what makes us work hard at playing the steel, instead of playing golf. When we play golf, we don't concern ourselves with the tone the ball makes as it rolls through the grass on it's way past the little hole for the third or fourth time. We are just mad because it is rolling by for the third or fourth time!

After re-reading Jeff's post and my own, I had a thought. Wouldn't it be great if "work" always related to reaching a positive goal, instead of "work" relating to frustration over not meeting expectations imposed by ourselves or others? I think if I keep this in mind, I may enjoy my "work" a little more this week!

Thanks Bobby & Herb, for injecting your comments.

I can't do that, I'm just not built that way, I'm trying to develop my own style, or any other excuse when it's obvious the student is just lazy and hasn't given it an honest chance.

My finding after 20 years of teaching is that people who walk in the door talking about "style" and "soul" just aren't going to get out of the bedroom. What's "natural" is to stay in bed and let mommy bring you everything for the rest of your life - there is nothing natural about playing any instrument except banging on it and howling. Go for it! Sure I'll buy your CD....

Do not belittle those who strive to develop good technique, by trying to say that because you didn't, it is unnecessary.

The proof is in the pudding - that's the way the cookie crumbles when the rubber hits the road (dammit Herb). If a large number of successful people have done a certain thing a certain way, it may be worth investigating before you go hog-wild, rebel child. You can't beat a dead dog to water, but another one opens....

That's a good point, Bobby. Maybe I should remember that the next time I'm irritated about something that's just taking too long. Believe me, I'm all for finding the most efficient way to play. That way usually involves expending the least amount of energy possible to achieve the desired result. At the same time, music is supposed to be fun. Any good teacher knows that it's important to keep the student enjoying what they're doing, and every student is different. Many people will fix their bad technique just by seeing a video of themselves playing. The sudden realization of seeing what they're doing will make the problem obvious to them. Those same students may not respond at all to your telling them over and over that they're doing something wrong. I just think it's a good idea to try different things to reach people since everyone responds differently to things. We all do this because we enjoy it. I think it's important to keep encouraging other players as much as possible to keep them enjoying it. Sometimes these back and forth discussions end up sounding like people just arguing with each other, which really isn't the point we're trying to get across. Together we can help more people than any one of us can do alone.

-Jeff

I can appreciate all the "I'm doing my own thing and making discoveries at my own pace" attitudes. But when someone comes to me for instruction and is paying me 50 bucks for an hour of my time and my knowledge, I owe it to them not to waste their time and money with a "hey, it's all good" point of view, regardless of how little "touchy-feely" may be involved.

They called me, after all; I didn't call them. If they just want someone to give an "okay, whatever" stamp of approval to what I consider is bad technique or bad habits, they need another "instructor." I'm kind of a hardass that way.

Personally, I show many ways of playing things to intermediate level players with correct technique but needing intellectual data or stimulation, but for beginners just starting out I'm more of a football coach than a summer camp counselor.

The body has to work correctly before the mind gets engaged. JMHO, "not that there's anything wrong with that," as Jerry Seinfeld would say.

First of all, I meant no disrespect to Jeff Newman. I thought you guys would appreciate the irony and humor of "Beware of Teachers" when I myself work full time giving lessons. Obviously teachers can and do help students, but at the same time, not all teachers are right all the time, and teachers should be flexible and humble and willing to learn or change. And students should take everything with a grain of salt -- listen and try it, but question it as well. Ask why. (I tell kids not to believe everything they are told by parents, teachers, adults, police, preachers, newscasters, and politicians. That's good advice, right?) The anecdotes you all gave about Jeff Newman indicate that he was flexible and open-minded. Wish I had met him...

But I still don't understand, even after reading Herb's concise and courteous explanation, why one has to hold the right arm close to the body. My natural position -- maybe this is because I play with finger nails, not picks, as I said -- is with my right elbow about six inches from my ribs. That is relaxed and comfortable and requires no energy. I often play four and five hour gigs with no tiredness, no soreness, and no difficulty picking or blocking, and have been doing it like this for 37 years with no problem. I'm not saying that holding the right elbow close to the body is wrong, I'm just saying that perhaps it is not necessary?

None of you responded to what I said about the guy with no hands who plays with his toes. Technique is only important when it interferes with the music, or when it interferes with the musician's comfort or health. When I teach technique issues to students, which I do for about thirty hours every week, I don't say, "You must do it this way." I say, "You might want to try this -- it might make things easier or more comfortable. Someone accused me of thinking I'm a better teacher than Jeff Newman. You misunderstand me completely -- what I am talking about is that, after about 20,000 hours of music experience and maybe 1500 gigs, I am still trying to be humble when I try to help others. Does that sound a little better? I'm not right all the time. Are you?

Barry Hyman wrote: I too used to preach to my students about "proper technique" until one day I saw a guy with no arms who played guitar with his toes! Meditate on that one, my friends! It sounded good! Who would dare lecture that guy on his bad technique?

Well, I really didn't see any relevance to the issue at hand. Who would dare "lecture" him?? No one but an idiot, maybe? Poor fellow has limited ability and he overcame it to a certain degree. If he had a CHOICE, I'm sure he would be thrilled to learn proper technique--I would. So what's his case got to do with proper technique and everybody else who is NOT handicapped?? To me, that would reinforce what you could tell a student about proper technique.

James, in all good humor, let me have a go at that: "Poor fellow?" "Handicapped?" "Limited ability?" "Overcame it to a certain degree?" Wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong! This guy was in The Zone! He was playing good music! He was ecstatic! Ever seen video of Thelonius Monk playing the piano? This guy looked like that -- he was in the place that every musician wants to be in! There was no "limited ability" -- he was getting the sound he wanted, when he wanted it, and it sounded good, which is all any of us can aspire to.

Sure technique matters -- if your bar is not parallel to the frets, your chords will be out of tune (unless you are intentionally doing a slant). If you break the strings every time you touch them, you probably should pick them more gently. I don't dispute the obvious facts. And technique that cause undue muscular or skeletal stress, as Herb explains, should be gently but insistently corrected by any conscientious teacher. (And technique that damages the instrument is not cool either!) But beyond that, anybody who thinks that right and wrong are easy to define, or that there is a clear line between fact and opinion, may be a hot pedal steel player but has not evolved very much as a human being. We need to be humble, and we need to maintain a sense of humor, and we need to remember (yes, me too!) that we are often wrong, and we teachers need to strike a balance between giving good sensible advice and letting inspiration and originality blossom. The pedal steel is a relatively new musical instrument. None of us know where this is going. "Proper technique" is a minefield when you really try to pin it down, and students should be told that, in my opinion.

Barry Hyman wrote: James, in all good humor, let me have a go at that: "Poor fellow?" "Handicapped?" "Limited ability?" "Overcame it to a certain degree?" Wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong!

With all due respect, so Ok, a gentleman with no hands is not handycapped according to you, Barry. I suppose he does not have a blue tag hanging on his car mirror--you know, the one with the wheel chair picture issued by the state for handicapped people?

My failure to not GUESS who he is, and that he's right up there with Emmons and Green, and Bouton, ect. with his achievements on pedal steel. Sorry, my oversight. I guess from what you say, this gentleman has the same "level playing field" the rest of us who HAVE both hands do. My bad.

So what's this got to do with proper technique for the folks who have both hands??

Interesting.

I'm such a hack, so I've been REALLY drilling on Jeff Newman's Right Hand Alpha. My accuracy and blocking needs a lot of work, so I've found his course very valuable.

I did a gig on Sunday up in Santa Rosa at a backyard BBQ party, and realized I'd forgotten my Crown Royal bag with my bar and picks. Thank goodness I had my reso with me - I ended up using the bar and playing with my fingers. My reso thumbpick broke when I tried to put it on...sheesh.

But I looked at this pic and realized my right hand is pretty close to where I've been trying to train it, but I see a gap between my right elbow and my hip...my hand's also too close to the bridge. I'd also like to see more curvature in my right wrist...


Now I just gotta find a teacher here in the Bay Area...hint hint

Barry, with all due respect, it was you who set the tone of this discussion. If some of us sound a little defensive, you surely expected that.

We all have said that we work with individuals to find techniques that work for them. You said "Technique is only important when it interferes with the music, or when it interferes with the musician's comfort or health." Of course we all will agree with most of that. It is the only part that I object to. Good advice on technique, can save a student a lot of time by not correcting bad technique. I'd say "Bad technique is only important when it interferes with the music, comfort, or health".

Good technique is important wether someone teaches it to you, or you come up with it by trial and error. Why encourage anyone with access to a teacher, to go the trail and error rout?

When I started playing the fiddle, any way that I held the bow "interfered with my comfort", but to play the fiddle with my fingers or a pick, both of which I was very comfortable using, it just didn't sound like a fiddle to me. Sure, I could have become the founder of a new sound, but I decided to stay with the bow and learn to deal with it. As a result, I am considered a pretty normal fiddle player. I am fairly comfortable using a bow, and I still work hard to keep up my technique with it.

The whole point is, as a teacher, we all want to help folks learn. We see folks every day, who think that some technique or the other is just impossible, and they are ready to give up. We all know, that it takes a certain amount of work to gain any level of proficiency. We all know that some techniques work for some folks, and not for others. We all know that some folks have certain problems that require unusual techniques to be able to play.

Your comment about the guy with no arms, was not even relevant to your own point. Why would we insist that he hold his arms a certain way when he had none.

The whole thing with the right elbow is a training technique, not a playing technique. You don't try to hit the ball with the weight still on your bat, but because you've been swinging the weighted bat, you can hit the ball harder.

In your picture, your elbow is fairly close to your ribs, 6 inches is about right for a relaxed elbow. Wether you tried the magazine thing or not, you got there. I personally did not do the magazine thing when I was first learning the steel. I did the magazine thing years ago, to help with controlling my fiddle bow with my wrist, instead of doing it all with my elbow. But it makes perfect sense on the steel for the same reasons. After you get to the point that it stays down and you quit thinking about it, you relax, your elbow finds a natural, relaxed position, somewhere that gravity dictates. The whole goal is to use less energy trying to defy gravity.

Have you not seen guys trying to play with their arm almost parallel to the ground, from their shoulder to the elbow? Is it wrong to try and help that guy? Is it wrong for him to seek advice from a teacher? Is it wrong for him to listen to the teacher, and try to do what the teacher recommends?

The thing is, all of your comments would lead someone to think that all teachers are trying to hold them back by recommending they waste their time practicing impossible to master useless techniques.

If this was supposed to be a joke, I suggest you stay with music, and leave the comedy teaching to others more qualified. Might I recommend starting out something like "A duck walks into a bar", and then we will all be prepared for the humor!

I just want to add one more thing and then I'm gonna quit.

Good technique is important because it helps to put the player in control of the sound that comes from his instrument. From hitting the right notes, to the tone of those notes, folks who posses good technique can control the sound they get, better than those with bad technique.

Did you ever see a player who could copy any sound he heard at will? How about a guy who can listen to someone play something, and repeat it note for note instantly? A guy who gets such emotion out of his guitar that one minute you are in tears, and the next minute you feel ecstatic? My goal is to be able to play anything I can imagine, and have it sound, to the listener, exactly like it did when I imagined it. I believe that technique, good or bad, is the thing that can make this possible, or impossible.

Have you seen those guys who think they sound better than they do, and everyone listening knows they suck, but they think they are up there with the best? They hit some of the right notes, play the cheezy tags but they still don't hear the difference? How often have you heard one of these guys talk about how "they have their own style, and they tried lessons, but they just had to learn to do their own thing"? There is a difference between playing your own style, and when you just plain suck.

I encourage students to come up with their own sounds, but I also tell them "Play what you play because it is the sound you want to make. Don't play it because your limited ability won't allow you to play something better. I try to help them have the technique to play what they want to play.