The Steel Guitar Forum

John Polstra wrote:I think I'm missing something, because I can't understand why folks would use anything except LKR to lower the Es on an E9/B6 uni. Here's my reasoning:

• 1. The knee that is holding the Es lowered is out of commission for anything else. It can't operate another knee lever.
  
  2. When using the B6 foot pedals, the left foot is way over to the right, making it impractical to use the left knee for anything except holding the Es lowered with LKR.
  
  3. Therefore, if you lower the Es with your right knee, you have no B6 knee lever available at all. Whereas if you lower the Es with LKR, you can still use your right knee as the normal B6 knee lever.

What am I missing?

John

On 1., you're missing the fact that the F-lever and E-lever can be used together as described by Paul Franklin in the post I referenced above. If you don't find that move useful, I guess it doesn't matter, but a lot of us do.

On 2., you're missing the fact that many of us find it very uncomfortable to hold the E-lever in with the left knee while operating the B6 pedals, which are to the right of the guitar. It's a very awkward movement to me and obviously many others.

On 3., the solution is to put the typical B6 knee levers - for example, string 3 half-tone B=>Bb lower (root=>maj7 lower), string 4 half-tone Ab=>A raise (6=>b7 raise) - on the left knee. That is easily done. All my universals have 3 left knee levers I can use for this. No matter which knee you put the E-lever on, you are restricted to using the other knee for B6-mode lever moves. For me, it's a tradeoff between combining pedal moves with the constant E-lever move and the occasional other-lever moves.

Do you play universal? Points 2 and 3 are irrelevant for an S-10 E9 player or D-10 E9/C6 player, which is why I suspect many more of them put the E-lever on LKR.

On point 1, if one looks at the E and F levers in isolation from each other, then putting them on separate knees reduces combinatorial options. But I don't look at it like that, and I think Paul makes that point very clearly.

Dave, thanks for the detailed explanation. Yes, I do play an S-12 universal. But it's my first PSG and I've only had it for a little over 4 months, so I have a lot to learn.

It's very awkward for me as well to hold the Es lowered with LKR and also operate the foot pedals that are toward the right. In fact, it's so awkward that I'm tempted to install the "change-lok" that locks the Es into the lowered position. I know, I know ... that takes away the ability to use it as one big tuning.

But wouldn't it be even more awkward to try to use standard B6 knee lever changes on the left knee while also using the left foot to operate the foot pedals?

I am not quite to the point yet where I'm using the lowering and raising of the Es together, so I hadn't given that much thought. In fact, I'm just now starting to get used to using the E lower melodically at all, as opposed to just making chords with it. I guess the Eb <-> F transition will become more important to me as I learn more.

Anyway, thanks for clearing this up for me.

John

John, some of us have exactly the opposite reasoning for where the Es are lowered on a uni. For the one big tuning approach without using a lock, for B6 mode you have to hold the Es lowered with one knee. That eliminates that leg for any other use, but you can still work the volume pedal fine with it. Might as well let the right leg, which is already on the volume pedal, do double duty for working the VP and holding the Es lowered. If I use my left leg to lower the Es, I can't even reach all the B6 pedals with it (I have four B6 pedals, including pedal 6); and even if I could, holding that lever while moving the same leg around over the pedals freely seems difficult, if not impossible for me. If you want B6 levers while your left foot is over the B6 pedals, many people have a center cluster of B6 levers (the same as many D10 C6 players). Holding the E lower lever with the left leg would eliminate use of a center cluster of B6 levers.

Having said all that, I do see your reasoning, if you only have three B6 pedals, and you can coordinate working all of them freely while holding LKR, and you have no center B6 lever cluster. That would allow moving between E9 and B6 mode easily without having to dodge LKR to get over to the B6 pedals. With no pedal 6, you will have to use one of the right knee levers for that, but you will get one potential additional B6 lever on the right leg. However, I use that for an E9 lever that is more important to me than anything I could get for B6.

In addition to the B6 problems, even on a standard E9, like Paul Franklin, I prefer the smooth action of having the two E levers on different legs.

[Dave M. posted while I was writing, so we mostly said the same things.]

David Doggett wrote: Having said all that, I do see your reasoning, if you only have three B6 pedals, and you can coordinate working all of them freely while holding LKR, and you have no center B6 lever cluster.

Well, I can't really work the B6 pedals while holding LKR without some major contortions, so my rationale for having it there doesn't hold up very well in reality. I have the standard P8, P5, P6, and P7 pedals, in that order, plus one more pedal in the rightmost position that's a mystery to me. (It raises G# -> A on string 10 and E -> F# on string 11.) Even P5 and P6 are a pretty long reach if I'm holding LKR.

My copedent is unchanged from when I bought the guitar (used), and I don't think I'm going to tinker with it until I get basically proficient on the instrument. (Except, I'm going to extend the P1 change down to the 12th string as you recommended.) It's more important for me to just practice a lot on a stable platform for now, I think. When I first started building guitar amps, I had this subconscious idea that if I could just build the perfect amp, my guitar playing would sound great. I finally figured out that practicing mattered a whole lot more than the equipment I was using.

John

My Es are on the right, lowered by RKL.

This topic comes up often, but this was the first time I spotted a poll to tally the preferences.

So many ways to get there. Ain't it grand?

I don't sit down at my guitar, instead it's more like I "climb in." Others feel this way?

Viva la difference!

RKL,I was told by a guy a few years ago that nobody uses that anymore...Just call me nobody!

I spent about 38 years with 12 string Universals & then came up with a little 10 string version of a half fast universal that works for me. I have to admit I have always, even on my earlier D-10's had that E lowering to Eb on the RKR, I really think that it is all in what you get used to. I used to play the Emmons setup, then switched to Day setup & then went back again to Emmons on the pedals, I musts be nuts, but I have had a hell of a lot of fun experimenting with pedal steel. But am present using the Low Bass E9th 10 string tuning, I like it cause I have to sing a lot & back myself up.

It works for me, do what makes you happy & you will be a fine player!!

Ernie Pollock, steel nut
301-264-4172

My first pro Emmons 35 yrs. ago was RKL. I had no idea about placement. Don't recall where the other 5 were really. I learned on that guitar. In the 90's, got a Sierra 14 w/E lok and lever on LKR as standard Sierra Universal setup. Subsequent more modern D10's usually came that way and my mentors in the newly formed steel club at that time were mostly using E's on the left so I just kept them over there. Still there, but every once in a while I find my old muscle memory has me banging RKL for some peculiar sounds sometimes.

I don't think it matters. I find some advantages and disadvantages both ways, depending on what else you've got going on in your setup. Everyone has their own ideas and comfort level. I'm not surprised by the poll, but there's really not a huge gap.

having a center knee lever cluster position on a universal tuning takes away the concept of one big tuning to me. if you're going to bother to do that i would think you might as well play a d10 and be happy.

Stu Schulman wrote:RKL,I was told by a guy a few years ago that nobody uses that anymore...Just call me nobody!

Looks like a full third of players are "nobodies", just like you and me (and Paul Franklin!).

b0b wrote:

Stu Schulman wrote:RKL,I was told by a guy a few years ago that nobody uses that anymore...Just call me nobody!

Looks like a full third of players are "nobodies", just like you and me (and Paul Franklin!).

I am a nobody, but RKL has been it for me from the beginning. I've switched the F lever around, now on LKR since I play Day setup, but the E-Eb would never go anywhere other than RKL.

RKL for me. I have had this since the early 70s on all my guitars including 5 Emmons Originals. I have a '69 D10 "Original" now w/ Es lowering on LKR and I can play it no problem... but I'll be changing it soon to RKL as I just find that location more comfortable.

Chris "Tiny" O.

b0b wrote:

Stu Schulman wrote:RKL,I was told by a guy a few years ago that nobody uses that anymore...Just call me nobody!

Looks like a full third of players are "nobodies", just like you and me (and Paul Franklin!).

Rkl here.

Mike Johnson plays shobud setup knee levers too.

Surprizingly enough alot of people still play the MSA standard setup. I played one for a while. It wasnt that hard to get around.

LKR

RKL to lower E's, RKR to raise.

LKL for me. I have my pedals set up Day style (C,B,A), so this setup (E raise is LKR) is simple and intuitive. But obviously not popular. According to this poll, LKL is the least popular E lower of all.

The essence of this poll is to see how many move their Es with their right knees, surely?

If that's the case, then both Emmons and Day players (I'm 'Day') who raise and lower the Es with their left knee should be added together.

That would put me in the majority. As it reads now, I'm an insignificant minority....

RKL for me - first learned on an old Sho-Bud set up like that. Plus, I found it easier on the 3+4 setup since they weren't on the same leg as the pedals... my current Emmons S-10 is set up the same way. My dad preferred having the E changes on the right leg too, so I just inherited his preferences when I started playing his guitars.

Cheers,
Martin

Drew Pierce wrote:LKL is the least popular E lower of all.

Yes but you would only put it there if you played Day (maybe a quarter of the population) and you also prefer Es on the left (maybe halve that again), so the poll result of 7% is not out of order.

Here's another vote for LKL (Like Ron Elliott) And the E's are raised with RKR. Day set up . Always have , always will.
As Jimmy Day once said: It all comes out the same on top.

Emmons pedals on first 3 pedals
pedal 4 lower string 6 full tone

RKR- E lower 1/2
RKL- E Raise 1/2
LKR-Eb Lower full w 1/2 tone feel stop
LKL- raise string 1 full tone and string 2 half tone
LV- Lower string 5 full tone


Same basic copedent for 39 1/2 years

RKL

RKR

Hence my contention that, 'Day' or 'Emmons', LKR or LKL is a vote for the left knee.

Isn't that issue that's being debated here?

I guess I'm like others. I currently have mine LKR, but it's a new Mullen, and came that way. I can play either way, but I prefer the RKL. It just feels better, and in some cases makes it easier to get some sounds without effort.