Which new Steel has the vintage ShoBud sound?

[Chuck Brinkman]

Well said TC,Chris & Gary.I've only been in the Pedal Steel Guitar world for only 2yrs.but after working with David Jackson and team for a new guitar with his new ideas for pedal steel I think David and his team are "Class Act"!!!Thank you David,Harry and Dawn. Chuck

[Donny Hinson]

David mentioned to me that he hasn't really ever looked closely at an Emmons. The fact that he ran a company that cranked out 55,000 pedal steel guitars is mind-boggling. If I'm not mistaken, at the peak, they built 1500 steels in one day!

A number I would like to see is how many guitars have passed through Bud Carter's hands total!
More than all the other builders put together since the dawn of pedals.

MSA, MCI (Waco), MCI (Arlington), Carter.

We'll be taking a short break while the officials review the playback...

[Herb Steiner]

Oh, BTW... the "Dawn of Pedals" lives in Los Angeles and works for the Jackson Guitar Co.

[Brad Malone]

T. C. wrote>> If I'm not mistaken, at the peak, they built 1500 steels in one day!<<

Hey TC, your above statement seems to lack any credibility...do you realize how many people you would need to build 1500 steels in a day?

[Brint Hannay]

I'm under the impression that Sho-Bud started in 1957 and ended in 1984. If Bobbe's figure of 55,000 steels produced is correct, the average production over those 27 years would be a little over 2,000 steels a year. Of course, the pace of production certainly varied widely at different times, but if we assume 52 5-day work weeks (260 work days) in a year the average daily production would be 7 or 8 steels.

[Brad Malone]

T. C. Writes>>David mentioned to me that he hasn't really ever looked closely at an Emmons.<<


Another statement I find very hard to believe...why would any builder or someone on his staff not look at the competition? We learn from many sources, why not give them all a chance to give us some ideas..that's my take.

[Alan James]

I'm under the impression that Sho-Bud started in 1957 and ended in 1984. If Bobbe's figure of 55,000 steels produced is correct, the average production over those 27 years would be a little over 2,000 steels a year. Of course, the pace of production certainly varied widely at different times, but if we assume 52 5-day work weeks (260 work days) in a year the average daily production would be 7 or 8 steels.

Supposition based on shaky information. That number (55,000) appears to have been sourced from the same place many people seem to keep their heads.

[b0b]

The fact that he [David Jackson] ran a company that cranked out 55,000 pedal steel guitars is mind-boggling. If I'm not mistaken, at the peak, they built 1500 steels in one day!

I believe you are mistaken. There are 1440 minutes in a day, so they would have to be cranking out one every 58 seconds or so. How many people did Sho-Bud employ?

[Brint Hannay]

I'm under the impression that Sho-Bud started in 1957 and ended in 1984. If Bobbe's figure of 55,000 steels produced is correct, the average production over those 27 years would be a little over 2,000 steels a year. Of course, the pace of production certainly varied widely at different times, but if we assume 52 5-day work weeks (260 work days) in a year the average daily production would be 7 or 8 steels.

Supposition based on shaky information. That number (55,000) appears to have been sourced from the same place many people seem to keep their heads.

Note that I said "IF Bobbe's figure of 55,000 is correct". (emphasis added) I certainly don't claim to know.

[Brad Malone]

b0b asked>>How many people did Sho-Bud employ?

Now there is a great question...if we could hire that crew, we could become millionaires, remember that crew built 1500 steels in a day..what a great gang.

[Tom Quinn]

No one likes a wise guy Brad... -L-

[Chris LeDrew]

Thanks Ron, What made me ask the question is my understanding that Lloyd Green plays a Show-Pro and I was wondering why he would not play a Steel that gets the vintage ShoBud sound. Also, Tommy White plays Show-Pro

Getting back to your original question, Lloyd still plays his Sho~Bud a lot of the time on sessions. He also has a Show-Pro, yes. They are killer guitars. But it is my understanding that his Sho~Bud remains his main guitar. If you are hearing Lloyd's latest work, you may be hearing his original LDG.

And, as the author of this thread, it wouldn't hurt to be a bit more courteous to the talented and knowledgeable people who are taking the time to reply to your question, regardless of disputable facts and figures.

[Bobbe Seymour]

How many people did Sho-Bud employ?
I remember 52 at one time at three locations, this does not include, pattern makers, foundry and out sourced machine shops, or suppliers like springs, screws, pickup wire, finishing materials, and the trucks that brought in birdseye maple from Sarnia MI. and Canada.

Several secondary companies and suppliers were very instrumental in helping Sho-Bud attain it's record production numbers.

The big days were in the early seventies through the eighties, then the end came when Fred Gretsch bought the production department in Dec.31'85 and I bought the rest of the company which included all the expermental section and thousands and thousands of parts and materials.

Fred Grestch, after '85 continued to build produiction steel guitars well up into the ninties, I am not talking about these Grestch built steel guitars when figuring numbers in this total equation.

Still Sho-Buds and still great guitars. Quality control suffered a little at the end, but still great guitars.

As T.C. Furlong stated, David Jackson is an unsung hero of steel guitar. I'll say, much in the way P.A. Bigsby legendary reputation is today. And don't forget his brother Harry Jackson, an even quieter behind the scenes brother and son of Shot's.

And, as Chris LeDrew just posted, it might be very nice to see a little more respect directed toward those that are offering good facts on this thread.
Why should those that know the facts share them with those that don't if they are going to be treated with disrespect? This is why many great players and builders don't post here. They don't need to be ridiculded, they are the ones that have nothing to prove, not the ridiculers. So be nice,

Bobbe

Bobbe Seymour

[Brint Hannay]

Bobbe, thanks for posting with information from someone in a position to know.

I'm curious about a couple of things. First, it seems to be a general impression that Sho-Buds ceased to be produced in the mid-Eighties. (Maybe it's not a general impression, but, as I posted earlier, it has been my impression from somewhere!) Are you saying that new Sho-Buds were still being manufactured by Gretsch into the Nineties? Or would those be the Fender "Buds"?

And what was the idea in splitting the resources of Sho-Bud in '85? What was it that Gretsch retained, that is, what did the "production department" consist of? If Gretsch was still planning on producing steel guitars, why did they sell the parts and materials you bought? (Is the Sho-Bud history website that everyone uses as a reference correct that Gretsch originally bought the Sho-Bud company in 1979? I have a Sho-Bud catalog from '83 with the Gretsch name on it.)

When Gretsch bought the company, did the Jacksons remain involved in it?

[Chris LeDrew]

Here is a message I received from Lloyd Green this evening, regarding this topic. He has granted permission for it to be posted:

Brad Malone asks a logical question considering the fact I've recorded all but a handful of sessions with one of the 4 Sho-Buds I owned, the most recent being my #1 LDG built in early 1973 which I still record with.
So the fact is I do own the very first Show - Pro built by Jeff Surratt and occasionally use it on a recording. I really like that guitar but my heart has always been with my Sho-Bud and will remain there. If my career was in it's embryonic stages I would, without hesitation, play the Show - Pro.
As far as Sho-Buds work force, I would guess there were 15 to 20 people working in various areas of construction of the guitars at their peak of production during the 1970s including two of the Franklin clan. The production numbers printed here are figments of someone's fertile imagination! However, one day when I was in the "factory" on 2nd Ave. 30 LDGs were brought down from upstairs in a half-hour period. But they had obviously been built over a period of days, or weeks. They were simply finished and ready to ship.
Concerning total numbers built by Sho-Bud over the years......I'd bet two hands of $100 Blackjack that nobody knows the exact or even approximate figure. Not even Shot, if he were still around. But it surely was significant.
David and Harry Jackson are really fine folks as was their dad.
I miss them all....and those halcyon days of Country music.

[Bobbe Seymour]

Brint, '79 the distributer was Baldwin-Kustom-Gretsch, then as I understand it Freddy Grestch the third wanted the name "Grestch" back in the family, Baldwin wouldn't break up the corp. so Freddy had to take Kustom and Sho-Bud in order to get his "Grestch" company name back. He didn't really want Sho-Bud but had no choice but to take it on the deal, he then made a few steel guitars until the parts ran low in the '90's. Then as we all know, he quit building. He wanted Two hundred fifty thousand bucks for the Sho-Bud company and name (with no machines),,,,,,,,but had no takers.

The "Fender-Buds" were only built in the mid to late seventy's. Baldwin had nothing to do with this deal, just David, and he hated the deal before it was over, but had he not lived up to his end of the deal, Fender would have taken Sho-Bud over. TRUE!

I did not buy the Sho-Bud parts from Grestch in 1985, I bought them from David Jackson of "Music Cith Mfg". Fred Grestch didn't want to move them to S.C.,,, David was stuck needing to dispose of them or pay to have them trucked to the dump $$$. David then Made ma a deal I couldn't resist.

When Grestch bought the company to move to Rigeland SC., David closed everything in Nashville and he moved soon afterwards to GA.(after building several custom tour busses for stars like Jerry Reed, Burt Reynolds and some gospel groups etc.

NO, David walked away from Sho-Bud and the Grestch corporation. Harry, his talented steel guitar brother, went to work for the Nisson Corp. in Nashville building trucks, now retired and he and David are sharing building the Jackson Steel guitars.

I know nothing of the "Sho-Bud" story you referred to in your post. My info is from being directly involved, but this doesn't mean I am impervious to small errors at times.

Bobbe Seymour

Thank you for the questions.

[Bobbe Seymour]

Yes, I agree that no one does really know exactly how many guitars have the Sho-Bud name, no good records really exsist, but in going back over the years, and looking at what the company did between Shot-Buddy starting in '57, and everything that was done, lap steels, basses, dobros, Many different styles of steels over all those years, it has been estamated to be about what I said earlier in this post. No way to prove anything about this, but the family and I can guess pretty close.
Bobbe

[Brint Hannay]

Sorry about that, this is the website I was referring to:
http://www.telusplanet.net/~gsimmons/shobud/models.html

[Bobbe Seymour]

I'm sure a lot of this must be correct, I know Duane Becker well, he is a great guy and very therough, however in all my years of living with Sho-Bud in Nashville, I never saw him around and didn't meet him until Sho-Bud was gone. Don't mis-understand me, he may have some facts that I don't, and I don't mind being corrected if I'm wrong, But the facts I have interjectd here are totally from my own personal experences. Along with conversing with David and Harry Jackson personally.
I have not read this Duane Becker Sho-Bud info so I can't agree or disagree. What I know about Duane is all good.
I do feel that living in Nashville and having Harry and David as great friends to grow up with that I had my finger on the pulse of the company for many years, I didn't have quite as far to reach for the pulse as Duane did, BUT, I'm not saying Duane Becker isn't correct, I just haven't read this info. And really have no reason to do so.

Bobbe

[Bobbe Seymour]

OK, I just read Duane Becker's Sho-Bud info, and if anything is wrong, I can't see what it would be, he has done a wonderful job at listing the history of the models.
A few things need more detailed infomation, like the Super Pro and the Fender relationship.
And the Super Pro two, that was designed not by David but by Gene Haugh in Magazine Arkansas.

Great job Duane,


Bobbe

[James Morehead]

Just in case anyone has forgotten the original topic.

"Which new Steel has the vintage Shobud sound?"

Is it the Jackson or the Show-Pro? I know someone on the board has the answer.

Awe, it's not staying on topic that gives pleasure, but, it's the long journey back. Peace.

[Brad Malone]

I want to thank all the great people who have taken the time to respond to this thread. I have learned so much by reading all your great posts..thanks for sharing your knowledge.

[Damir Besic]

few thousand more or less, I think it is amazing that Sho~Bud managed to keep the quality of their guitars so high, even while mass producing like they did...I prefer hand made custom guitars but I would buy and own another Sho~Bud any day...

Db

[Tom Quinn]

Nothing looks more handmade than a vintage Sho-Bud. The variations in the wood, construction and tone are all over the chart.

Nothing beats an old Bud or an Emmons P/P, with special mention to ZBs and Marlens...

[b0b]

Nothing looks more handmade than a vintage Sho-Bud. The variations in the wood, construction and tone are all over the chart.

I'm not sure what you mean by "vintage", Tom.

They may not have been real consistent, but the Sho-Buds I've owned all had an "assembly line" look and feel to them. My first decent pedal steel was a 6139. Then I acquired a Maverick (which I still own), and later I got a Baldwin Crossover. It wouldn't be hard to find a near-exact clone of any of those 3 guitars, even today.

In contrast, I've never seen anything that matched the Marlin Speedy West D-10 I played for a few years. And in tone and playability it was far better than any of the 3 Sho-Buds. I know that Sho-Bud made some real nice pro guitars - they crop up here and on Ebay all the time. I guess I just happened to get the more "mass produced" models.