The Steel Guitar Forum

Alan Brookes wrote:

Gary Lynch wrote:...I doubt that is done by a luthier since we each like action different heights.

Actually, at our bimonthly meetings of the Northern California Association of Luthiers the topic of compensation for string pulldown frequently comes up. ALL luthiers allow some compensation, but I haven't seen the subject debated regarding steel guitars before.

I assume to compensate perfect, you would need to know the exact action and string gauge a guitar player uses?

Gary Lynch wrote:...I assume to compensate perfect, you would need to know the exact action and string gauge a guitar player uses?

When luthiers build custom guitars they usually expect the buyer to go for several custom "fittings" while the instrument is being built. It's not unusual for a musician to play his new instrument "in the white" as we call it, which is before any finish is applied. The action is often modified many times by shaving the neck here and there. The gauge of strings used by the customer is usually known to the luthier. Note that the fingerboard is not flat, but has a slight concave curve. It's not possible to be 100% accurate on any string instrument, but you can come close. Just take, for instance, an A chord, where the 1st, 5nd and 6th strings are played open, compared to a G chord, where the 2nd, 3rd and 4th strings are played open. It's close to impossible to tune a guitar to play a perfect G chord, then switch to an A chord and have it remain in tune.

Which brings us to the whole other subject of Equal Temperament. Mediaeval string instrument players only expected to play in one or two keys. A modern guitarist expects to be able to play in all 11 major and minor keys. Compromises have to be made somewhere.

I play fingerpicking blues and folk material mainly in open D tuning, and on some guitars I always have to tune my low D down a good quarter of a step to have it sound in tune. I have noticed this particularly on short scale instruments - it is barely noticeable on my 24.5" scale Dart Weissenborn copy, but I have a Regal acoustic with a 23" scale where the effect is quite pronounced. But here's the thing - it's not only a bar pressure issue, because it happens even with the open string.

I think what is happening is this: when a low-tension string is plucked hard, it briefly goes sharp before settling down to the note it is tuned to. For fingerpicking, you really only hear the initial attack, so the note ends up sounding sharp. I don't know the exact physics basis for this, but it is known to guitar players - see here, a couple headings down:

http://www.endino.com/archive/tuningnightmares.html

I have verified this myself by running a recording of my guitar through spectrographic analysis software. It shows the note starting sharp and gradually settling back down.

This would not be a problem for dobro players because they use high bass G tuning and play on longer scale instruments. (Detuning due to bar pressure is also not as big an issue for them, for the same reason.) It's probably also more noticeable in fingerpicking, so steel guitarists who play in a more classic Hawaiian/country mode might not notice it as much.

Another interesting aspect of this is that a compensated saddle would not solve the problem, since it's inherent to the string vibration. I'm sure bar pressure is also an issue here, just wanted to point out that there may be more to it.

Ben Sims wrote:...I think what is happening is this: when a low-tension string is plucked hard, it briefly goes sharp before settling down to the note it is tuned to. For fingerpicking, you really only hear the initial attack, so the note ends up sounding sharp...

You're absolutely right, Ben. This is a phenomenon which was of great concern during mediaeval times, when most instruments had low tension, because of the vagarity of strings then available. The psaltery was well known for this. I've built several psalteries and they all have that chracteristic sound, caused by the strings sounding sharp and then going into tune. All string instruments exhibit this phenomenon, but it is hardly noticeable at high tensions.

I recently started playing a lot of bass guitar and I've noticed that it's more pronounced on a bass than on a guitar or a mandolin.

I'm kinda glad this thread has moved slightly off-topic... fascinating & entertaining as it is (again!)

I'm familiar with what you're describing, Ben.
Also, nice link, thanks! I had a read-through... been there! hehe!
( I spent my early years playing guitar during the birth of the Death-Metal & Grindcore genres, notorious for tuning really low & playing 16th & 32nd notes hard & at high BPMs interspersed with long sustained chords... a real recipe for tuning nightmares! We often resorted to using bass strings for the low"E". I still keep a 7-string with a 70-gauge low A )

What gauge strings do you have on the 23"scale guitar?
If you go a little heavier then the "Bwowwm" will be less noticable.

If the gauges on the 23"scale guitar are the same as for the 24.5", then imagine putting a capo on that DADF#AD Weiss to take the length down to 23"...
That's how your 23" guitar will need to be tuned to sound right with that gauge.
The tension will be the same, but the tuning may be up around openE EBEG#BE.

I have a hollowneck with a 23" scale-length which has a stable bottom-string low-D, but the gauge needs to be at least 56 or fatter to have sufficient tension to get rid of the sharp attack.
If I use the gauge I'd normally use for open D on my Weiss copy (25") it sounds just right in open E.

I hope this info helps you out... as that 23" scale is quite short you can go heavy on the gauge & the tension will still be pretty low but if you worry about the tension then there's online calculators that can help with this.
You may even find that the heavier strings will drive the top a little more & you'll get a richer sound from the guitar.

Chris,

On my 23" scale guitar I use standard dobro strings with a .56 for the low D. I guess I must hit the strings pretty hard because I still get the "bwowwm" even at that gauge. I have an electric lap steel with a 22.5 inch scale which I tune to open E and have put really heavy strings on (.60 or higher for the low E) and that seems to fix the problem, but then I don't particularly like the tone quality of the really heavy strings. I think the set of strings I have on there may actually be one aimed at heavy-metal players using dropped tunings. I'm coming to the conclusion that the really short scale instruments are not the best choice for fingerpicking.

Ben Sims wrote:Chris,

On my 23" scale guitar I use standard dobro strings with a .56 for the low D. I guess I must hit the strings pretty hard because I still get the "bwowwm" even at that gauge. I'm coming to the conclusion that the really short scale instruments are not the best choice for fingerpicking.

Try raising your tuning a little, even a 1/2-step should be enough tension for a 23" scale with that gauge... certainly raising to EBEG#BE will get you a stable low string.

I use my 23" hollowneck for "energetic" fingerpicking in open E without an issue ( with Newtone "Aloha" strings) , but maybe it's just less noticable as I tend to mute the low strings a little when doing the alternating thumb-bassline thing.

Try open Eb & see how you get on!

Thanks for contacting me about responding to the post on saddle compensation for lap steels. I am sorry but I am in the middle of building our new shop and keeping up with my work. I have no time to jump into the thread at this time.
Nut and fret locations are the first crucial point that must be accurate, and even when these points are correct every guitar or lap steel will need different degrees of intonation/compensation. So there is no defining rule of where the saddle or saddles should sit. I have some lap steels with straight saddles and they play in tune nicely up the scale others don’t. This is very common with acoustic guitars too which have a set non movable saddle. Being in the repair business for over 25 years I have filled and re-slotted saddles and adjusted nut locations on dozens of acoustic guitars for more accurate intonation, and I have had to do this on some lap steels as well. Moving frets has been extremely rare. So the best answer is every instrument has to be adjusted for its own intonation needs. An experienced luthier can measure the scale length then check that the nut and fret locations are correct. Make any adjustments there first if needed. Then adjust the saddle location for that particular instrument to play in tune. This has worked for me every time.

I hope this helps, and you are welcome to post this for me.

All the best,
Bill Asher

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Bill Asher
http://www.asherguitars.com
310-821-2888