The Steel Guitar Forum

Whoa! Don't toss me in with the C6'ers. I work with E7 (b d e g# b e low to hi) and find it most useful for all the music I play. Most of the songs I play don't have 6th chords in them, but I do use a lot of minors, and 7ths. I have no qualms about anybody else using C6/Am7 as I'm sure not many people are doing the same stuff that I am. My 8-string is tuned to A6, and in my learning that tuning I can see how well it can be utilized. After praticing for an hour or so in A6 on the 8 string, I usually very happily jump back on my E7 tuned 6 string to do some real playing.

Ray, thank you for not calling your scale charts Lap Maps. I think there may have been some confusion. Rick A's charts are closer to what a lap map is, showing note placements and chord possiblities in a given tuning, rather than scales of a given key in a given tuning.

Danny, it's named after you, in my mind....

This is the "Steel Without Pedals" section, so screw pedal steel tunings. (Only kidding). I made up a joke tonight:

Definition of Lap Steel: It is a Pedal Steel with training wheels..... yuk, yuk......

Don't think I haven't noticed, but I grin from ear-to-ear each time you poke fun at me.

I really hate to admit it in front of everyone, but I called in some consultants to help me "invent" my glorious tuning. I knew that I wanted E-G#-B-E on the four top strings. So, I took the other notes that were left over and pasted them on some doggie bones. I have a rat terrier and a jack russell. I said to them: "Get the bone! Bring it!" All I did was try out some of the various combinations. No big deal.....

BTW, I was dead serious about the possibility of taking at least one lesson from you. Give it some thought and let me know.

Theo, my friend, I don't toss you in with anyone. You are in a class all to yourself!

Robert Murphy's Tuning is very interesting. It has two major triads, an octave apart. Play the first two notes of "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" to get a sample of that.

The major, minor, minor 7, dom 7, and 11th chords all have the root on the bottom! There is a 4-note 6th chord, a 5-note 9th, and a full 6-note 11th chord.

Six of the seven notes in the major scale appear under the bar!!!!

Four notes of the minor pentatonic scale appear directly under the bar.

There are no "string-skips" for any of the chord grips.

Here is part 1:

Here is the rest of the charts for Robert Murphy's A11th Tuning:

Ray,

I have been studying the C6th pedal steel since March. I love it but the lap steel is a true addiction... so... We might as well introduce ourselves to each other as "steel addicts" and admit our disease... I'm told it's still cheaper than a golf addiction!

I'm always interested in getting together with steelers so we'll be in touch.

I think I know what Theo's talking about with that C6 statement. Any 6th tuning can make some people twitch. I think they call it "Hawaiian Envy"

The other tuning I posted is very close to "RayzE13th" and Theo's tuning. With this tuning, you can grab a big fat Cmaj9 on the 3rd fret. I've been in love with that Cmaj9 chord since Neil Young played that little guitar part in "Bluebird"... the part that's just before Stephen Still plays the banjo in the reprise.

Once again, it's...
High to low
E,B,G#,E,C#,A

Low to high
A,C#,E,G#,B,E

Ray Langley wrote: This is the "Steel Without Pedals" section, so screw pedal steel tunings.

Right on!! I agree!!!......




but wouldn't you just love one little pedal to lower that C# to C on the A11 tuning?.......come on Ray, just one little half tone?.......


thanks for posting the charts and thanks for your contributions.....

Also note that on strings 5 4 3 is a full diminised chord R b3 b5, ( C#, E, G )no inversion.

Danny Bates wrote: Another one I like is very close to the coveted "RayzE13th"

High to low
E,B,G#,E,C#,A

Low to high
A,C#,E,G#,B,E

That was my first tuning, Danny, back in 1972. I had a little red Rickenbacker Electro, with flat wound strings.

HowardR wrote:but wouldn't you just love one little pedal to lower that C# to C on the A11 tuning?.......come on Ray, just one little half tone?.......

That's what those little knobs at the left end of the guitar are for, Howard.

That's what those little knobs at the left end of the guitar are for, Howard.

b0b,......I have short arms.........and long pockets....

Theo, to recap: I wasn't "tossing you in with the C6'ers... "Consensus" only means "majority of opinion". It does not mean EVERYONE.

Danny, you A C# E G# B E is also an interesting variation, but there is still no 7th. I know that you "get around" that using pulls. That is one subject I would like to learn more about. Maybe in our first lesson?

HowardR asked if I wouldn't like "one little pedal". On lap steel we call that function a double-neck....

HowardR states that he has "short arms". To be more politically correct, isn't that called a reach impediment?

b0b, next up is some charts (not lap maps!) for your A# variation. That is a very good idea.

Here is the 1-6-2-5 chord progression for b0b's A# variation.


Bob, I agree that the 7th on the bottom is not very appealing to the ear.
You idea works better, especially for some tunes. Nothing is lost by
this alteration. We still have a 4-note Major triad, a 3-note Minor
triad, and a 5-note minor 7th... all with the root on the bottom!

The Dom. 7th chord has the flat-7 on top for a better sound.

Your idea will be useful for tunes like Brownie McGhee's, "Sportin'
Life Blues". Here is the progression:

E / / / E7 / / /

A / / / Am7 / / /

E / C#7 / F#7 / B7 /

E / / / / / B7 /
(turnaround)

I have only taken one formal guitar lesson in this lifetime. It was with
fingerstyle virtuoso, "Dale Miller". I wanted to learn this song after
hearing him play it live in the early 70's. Halfway through the lesson, he
basically told me it was "too advanced" for me. He sent me home with
"Bicycle Built for Two (Daisy Bell). It took me almost a year to get that
one down. I still have his hand-written tab for the progression. It's still
one of my favorite 8-bar blues, along with Key to the Highway and
It Hurt's Me Too.

Thank you Bob, et al.... I have learned much in this thread. Good stuff.
Most things in life have been EASY for me to learn. Music is the one
exception. It has been a struggle every step of the way, and it continues
to be. But, music is what I want, more than most anything else.

Here are the charts:

Theo said:
"Ray, thank you for not calling your scale charts Lap Maps. I think there may have been some confusion. Rick A's charts are closer to what a lap map is, showing note placements and chord possiblities in a given tuning, rather than scales of a given key in a given tuning."

Hi Theo, There may be still some confusion here. I think it's just a matter of semantics. What you call a "Lap Map" in your own thread of the same name is nothing more than a simple C Major Scale layed out for your chosen E7 tuning. Although, I don't really understand, if it bothers you for others to use the term "Lap Map", I have no problem calling it something else.....

Below is a diagram/chart of the C Major Scale in four tunings that have been discussed in this thread. Yours is at the top, then my E13th, then b0b's variation, then Robert's. I haven't seen what Rick A. calls a lap map but if yours is modeled after his, it is just a C Major Scale....

For me, diagrams/charts in the key of the tuning, or in the key of the song I am playing in at the moment are the most useful.

Those all look like great chordal tunings. I'd have to actually take some time with them to find out about single string play. I wish I had the time to play that some of y'all seem to.
But speaking of chordal tunings, Billy Hew Len used to use (from hi to low) E-C-A-F-D-B. At least that's what I read on another forum. It looks very promising to me. But I've heard it's weak as a single string tuning.

Hi Edward,

A tuning is merely a vehicle. You still have to drive the darn thing.

If you are primarily interested in single-note soloing, standard guitar tuning (EADGBE) may be exactly what you are looking for. Many Chicago blues musicians considered Earl Hooker to be the "greatest slide guitarist" of all time! Earl played EVERYTHING in standard tuning. His mentor, Robert Nighthawk, also played in standard tuning. Earl was also adept in country/western, jazz, and pop.

I think Andy Volk had it right when he said, "There is no ideal tuning, only the search for one...."

If you want to retain and/or apply your knowledge of standard tuning, the next logical step away from standard is the Drop D tuning (DADGBE). This allows you to play alternating bass along with your melodies. Kirk Lorange has a DVD for playing in standard and Dropped D tunings:

http://www.guitarforbeginners.com/forum ... e-dvd-faq/

Here is what Kirk says about chords:

"Standard is in fact a bunch of mini open tunings, all living together. There's no need to play six strings to play chords, and the DVD shows you where to find all flavors of chords: major, minor, major 7th, minor 7th, dom 7th, sus4, augmented, diminished, 9th, 11th ... they're all there."

The point is that just about ANYTHING can be played in just about ANY tuning.

If you want to play an alternating bass style lap steel just like Kelly Joe Phelps, then you will need to tune to an open tuning like Open D.

If your repertoire consists of three-chord songs in major keys, you can't go wrong with Open Major tunings. It all depends on what YOU want to play.

The answer is that I eventually want to play almost everything. For me, versatility is key in my first tuning. So far I'm very happy with C6 in that regard. But it is becoming appearant that C6 is not going to be my only tuning in the long run. I suspect that some of the old timers who have been playing for many years can predict some of my posts based on their own experience. "Yes," they're thinking, "He says that now. But in a few months he'll realize that....." Or maybe they don't even read my posts. Who can tell?

I came across this tuning for lap-slide after coming over from guitar and being lazy but now that I've learnt more, I wouldn't change it!! Simply high to low E B G D G E (Tune your A string in standard guitar tuning to G). Or tune a tone down D A F C F D for weissenborn).

Why? Full major chords, full minor chords, major 6 chords, minor 7ths, dominant 7ths (in closed position no 3rd), all with root as lowest note. A 5th in the bass to alternate bass for majors, a minor 3rd to alternate bass for minors (good for solo pieces, easy 6th harmonys (straight bar). There are also many implied chords(ie bass player takes root or you play open string in bass etc))such as Dom 9th, Major 7th, 6/9, and so much more when it comes to playing in different keys incorporating open strings into the bar fretted chords. My nerdy self has pages full of them. I'm probably on my own here but horses for courses!!!

I said: It all depends on what YOU want to play.

Edward said: I eventually want to play almost everything.

I say: So do I! You know what? Every tuning is somewhat of a compromise. There simply IS NOT a "World's Greatest Tuning". If there were, all of us would be using it exclusively, right?

Kindred spirit Edward, if you are happy with your C6th tuning, stick with it. No matter which tuning you choose to begin with, it will likely take years for it to produce the fruit you desire.

In my own case, even though I may not have years, I have just now sold the mag wheels on my (non-operational) 1972 Mustang so that I could order the Jerry Byrd Instructional Course in C6 Tuning! I ordered a used copy a few minutes ago. It should be here about January 7th.

Well, so much for my Ideal E13th tuning......

I advise everyone to follow your own star. There is no ONE perfect tuning for everyone. I fully intend to retain my Open E tuning for the blues and for Steel Guitar Rag, and others.....

Joel, your idea is utter simplicity! It works....
Some of the scales are a little far apart, but so what? Right? Good on ya mate.....

Edward and Joel,

Thanks for sharing those tunings. I can't wait to try both of those.

And thanks Ray for starting this great thread!

Interesting stuff... I love this forum!

Danny said: I love this forum!

So do I! This thread has been a quest leading to self-discovery regarding tunings. A one point I envisioned Jerry Byrd (and others) sitting alone in a room with a handful of sharpened pencils and reams of paper. With our computers, we are now able to explore myriad possibilities in moments instead of days or weeks.

I read somewhere that Jerry Byrd stated that there are "18 playable tunings". Playable is the key word! Each of the six strings can be tuned chromatically to any of 12 different notes. For an instrument with only two strings, we have (12X12) 144 different ways to tune them.

The main limitation to 6 strings is that there are only six of them! If I had it to do over, I would have chosen an eight stringed lap steel..... Even so, there is a lifetime of study to be had with six strings.

Learning the C6 tuning will be a struggle, but I know that this is what I must now learn to be able to play the beautiful love songs and ballads that appeal to me on a personal level. My goal is to learn enough about the inner working of this tuning so that I can transcribe my own accurate and pleasant sounding arrangements. As always, I am happy to share my work with other seekers.