The Steel Guitar Forum

I want a mica steel with this pattern on the front apron.

Ooops! Sorry wrong Richard Burton.

I too, love a beautiful lacquered guitar but I hate when I see the first scratch or dent and they always manage to happen no matter how careful you are. As for mica, I have never seen a more beautiful guitar than a new black mica Emmons or an immaculate black 66 push pull. I just took delivery on a blue mica BMI D10 with full polish kit and it is to me a thing of beauty. If I used words like stunning, I would use it to describe this BMI. I have a beautiful blue lacquered birdseye D10 8+9 that will rival any guitar I have ever seen or played but I hardly ever take it out because of fear of it being scratched or dented. You can see it in the photo section of the Branson Steel Club website from the 07 Branson show.
I would play that guitar all the time if not for being overly protective of it. Lacquer is beautiful but mica is durable and stays looking nice. One last thought, anyone who has ever put mica on a double neck (stepped) body and did a first class job on it knows that it is no simple matter to do. It is labor intensive and one slip and you start over so I don't see it as being an easy way out.
Jerry

John Drury quoted me asking this question. and then asked me "Are you serious?"

I guess my question is this... Is there a difference in the tone of a steel guitar made in mica vrs. one with a beautiful wood finish?

Are you serious?

I answered Yes in the next post.

I was surprised to be asked "Are you serious" because I honestly don't know the answer.

So please John, tell me the answer.

Does anybody know the answer? Should I start another thread?

If my Grandpa ,would my it sound good.[/img]

Emprisonné par la dissonance cognitive engendrée par la preuve irréfutable et le bon sens, une autre langue se sent obligée à fouetter dehors à chacun et à tout en vue dans une tentative inefficace de justifier ses prophéties. Le problème car je le vois n'est pas une question de qui les harijans de cette société sont mais plutôt qu'une autre langue s'arrêtera à rien à ramener l'histoire à un overdetermined, croquis de wireframe de ce qui sont, en réalité, complexe, des événements dynamiques. Ceci peut sembler indigne mais si c'étaient fiction j'aurait pensé à quelque chose plus croyable. Sans modification, une autre langue fonctionne dans la prétention mal orientée qu'il a été choisi par God en tant qu'administrateur de ses souhaits et désirs. J'ai mis qu'observation dans cette lettre juste pour vous laisser voir qu'il doesn' ; mots d'utilisation de t pour la communication ou pour échanger l'information. Il les emploie pour désarmer, hypnotiser, tromper, et pour tromper. It' ; s meilleur pour ignorer la plupart des citations qu'une autre langue cite tellement fréquemment. Il prend des citations de de contexte ; tromper d'utilisations, non pertinent, et citations démodées ; et, les présents cite des autorités légitimes employées par tromperie pour soutenir des controverses qu'ils n'ont pas prévu et ce ne sont pas vrai. En bref, quand les gens disent que ces bigoterie et haine sont vivante et bien, they' ; droite re. Et une autre langue est de blâmer. Je peux répéter avec la conviction non diminuée quelque chose que j'ai dite il y a des ères : Il la déteste quand vous dites qu'il can' ; commande de t son désir d'avoir tout qu'il veut et pour l'avoir maintenant. Il vraiment haines il quand vous dites cela. Essayez de le dire à lui autrefois si vous avez une peau épaisse et un don' ; esprit de t le faisant pousser des cris perçants des insultes à vous. Marquez mes mots : Un autre Language' ; les fulminations de s ne sont pas satire pleine d'esprit, car il vous ferait croire. They' ; re simplement les ramblings méchants de quelqu'un qui n'a aucune idée ou appréciation de quel he' ; raillerie de s. Bien qu'un examen complet de sectarisme malmenant soit au delà de la portée de cette lettre, quand on regarde l'influence croissante de l'expansionism dans notre culture une voit qu'un autre Language' ; la signature de s est sur tout. Tellement comment se fait-il que ses empreintes digitales soient nulle part à trouver ? Ce s'avère justement être une question sur laquelle je ne m'inquiète pas pour oser une opinion ou une conjecture. Je, cependant, estime que je devrais déclarer que n'importe comment le mauvais vous pensent un autre Language' ; les critiques de s sont, je vous assurent qu'elles sont lointaines, bien plus mauvais que vous pensez. Appelez-moi un cynique, mais si une autre langue can' ; t citent la base pour sa réclamation que la société est criarde pour ses hijinks alors qu'il devrait juste fermer à son sujet.

Translate please?

Joe Miraglia wrote:If my Grandpa ,would my it sound good.[/img]

Danny, And I thought my Grandpa is a poor speller. "would my it sound"
www.willowcreekband.com

Guys, some of us don't speak French. Some of us (including me) can barely speak English.

Getting back to the subject, I have 2 older MSAs, one mica guitar made out of some sort of laminated wood, and one solid maple with a lacquer finish. Both are 12 string "classic"s from 70s. I'm guessing the mica one is from around '74, and the maple one is from '78.

What has been said about the fragility of the lacquer finish vs the durability of the mica is true.

But more to the point, the guitars sound very different from each other. Some of this is due to the fact that they have different pickups, but they even sound different when played unplugged.

I frequently practice late at night while my wife is asleep, so I usually leave the amp off, so as not to disturb her. I'd say over 90% of my woodshedding is done without amplification, and all I hear are the acoustic properties of the instruments.

Maybe it's the different kinds of wood, maybe it's the mica vs lacquer. I don't know, but the difference in the way these 2 guitars sound unamplified is not at all subtle.

I suppose it's possible that if they had the same pickup, the differences when plugged in might be less pronounced.

Subjectively, between the two, I prefer the sound of the green maple/lacquer one.

yeah..now this is a fun thread...

i think first of all, the blame needs to rest solely on buddy's and the emmons co.'s shoulders.
weren't they pretty much the main creators to popularize this style...forcing the ugly mica on us by making us believe we'd sound like buddy?

danny...my favorite sounds came notably from two players (among many others of course).
john hughey with conway always seemed to be playing a wooden emmons..
buddy e. a mica glass emmons.
go figure.

lloyd green sounds pretty good on a wooden sho-bud....oh..oops, i just noticed he was playing a formica jch right then..

of course lacquer guitars are pretty...especially a beat up road worn chipped and cracked tobacco lacquer
emmons of mine called 'the honky-tonk veteran'...

and my 82 blue formica zum still looks pretty new if you kind of squint your eyes.

of course no one will dispute that much prettier than a formica guitar was sneaky pete's fender..a thing of beauty..

soooo.......what really determines their beauty is what you do with them..

I only had one semester of French; but I have a black Emmons PP, that IMO sounds better than my lacquer all pull Emmons. Never thought much about the color until someone brought it up a few years ago here. I'm waiting for the report from "singlepilot".

Stu, Mike and Charles... and others that don't speak French...

http://tinyurl.com/5q7l9b

Formica PSG's just look cheap to me.
They remind me of those Carbon Fiber Martins. Perhaps they don't sound as bad, but why bother?

to me a guitar (any guitar)should be wood. Wood is/was a living thing. Sure, my Sho-Bud has nicks, cracks and two major dings where the PA fell on it one night (The drunk REALLY got an earful from me over that one), but that is what gives it character. An instrument that is pristine just shows the owner never used the instrument, or rarely at best. That's a real shame IMHO. Taking the best care you can is one thing, but to obsess over perhaps getting a ding on a tool (and that is what an instrument is, first and foremost) is something else.

How about titanium tubing and aluminum, for something that's light and sounds good.

I think the Big E started out with mica covering to protect the finishes on Emmons guitars, didn't he? That's good enough for me! Lacquer's pretty but one nice dent or scratch on a 4000.00 guitar would make me sick. To each there own, I guess.

I've got an old Carter Starter in storage. A good mechanism but I hate the Formica finish, the cheapo pedals and knee levers and the pickup. I've been long planning to take all the moving parts out and put them into a proper natural-wood body, while at the same time changing the pedals and knee levers and fitting a Sho-Bud pickup. A fairly simple job when I get round to it.

Even covering the Formica with vaneer would be a 100% improvement.

I don't remember who wrote: After a certain age you get impatient and keep pushing the post button

Duplicate post.
Now what was I doing ?

Danny Bates wrote:Emprisonné par la dissonance cognitive engendrée par la preuve irréfutable et le bon sens, une autre langue se sent obligée à fouetter dehors à chacun et à tout en vue dans une tentative inefficace de justifier ses prophéties, etc., etc., etc..... la base pour sa réclamation que la société est criarde pour ses hijinks alors qu'il devrait juste fermer à son sujet.

Stu Schulman wrote:Translate please?

I don't think it was intended to be translated. It's very tongue-in-cheek and repetitive.

La connaissance des langues multiples donne la possibilité de savoir beaucoup, mais aussi la nécessité de se souvenir beaucoup des mots. As old age approaches I already have too many words to remember in English...

I'm 100% more interested in a guy's (or gal's!) playing skills (ability to "fit in" with a group, dexterity in both hands, taste, versatilty in styles, awareness of the sounds being produced and how to project them, and so on.......) than I am about what kind of finish his guitar has. I DON"T CARE! One of the most amazing 6 stringers I've ever had the pleasure to hear is a kid who insisted on playing a cheap Hohner electric. The range of tones and styles he could squeeze from that guitar was astounding.

I think the Big E started out with mica covering to protect the finishes on Emmons guitars, didn't he?

As I recall, he didn't like the cigarette burns on the guitar and the formica didn't show them, in the same way as wood.

John Ummel wrote:I'm 100% more interested in a guy's (or gal's!) playing skills (ability to "fit in" with a group, dexterity in both hands, taste, versatilty in styles, awareness of the sounds being produced and how to project them, and so on.......) than I am about what kind of finish his guitar has.

Understood. But I think some of us are talking about what kind of guitars we want for ourselves, rather than what others are playing.

Jack Stanton's photos of the black Emmons D-10: I'd say that is as pretty a pedal steel guitar as I have ever seen.

I have personally never been real big on wood grain Formica. It looks to me like - well - wood grain Formica.

Not wondering whether it could ever be done (unless it has), but a steel body, like, moulded from glass would be interesting.

Richard Chapman wrote: An instrument that is pristine just shows the owner never used the instrument, or rarely at best.

That's your opinion. I disagree with it. One could just as easily say that dings and scratches on a guitar shows the owner never takes care of the instrument.

I've seen lots of laminate covered guitars that have years of playing and roadwork on them and still look great. I've also seen lacquer guitars with lots of miles on them and still looking nice. It all depends on how well the owners take care of them. I think a laminate covered guitar is more durable and less likely to show the battle scars.

How we perceive, and whether we like or dislike, the appearance of a steel guitar is extremely subjective and depends on our mood, the lighting under which we see the steel, the environment in which we see it, whether we heard it being played and liked what we heard or not...and probably a hundred more variables, not the least of which are our own prejudices.

As individuals we each respond in our own unique fashion to the visual and aural stimuli we encounter every day.

Personal prejudice and preference are so inextricably interwoven in the process of perception and forming an opinion I doubt there would be enough bandwidth in the known universe to allow us adequately to discuss this particular topic.

We may allow a few givens however:-

there is an intrinsic beauty in well-finished figured wood, especially in musical instruments. Perhaps this stems from the extraordinary beauty of the great violins from Cremona during the golden age..."flame" of great depth and richness, enhanced by skilfull choice of and application of that special varnish the great violin-makers used.

Perhaps it is something even more primeval inside us. Why do hunters and rifle-enthusiasts choose deeply figured walnut for custom stocks? Because they find such figure and colour in wood appeals to something innate. Acoustic guitarists likewise admire deeply figured wood, for backs and tops. Wood-turners and cabinet-makers also are attracted to figured wood with "silk' or a sheen from particular grain structures and orientations. Whatever this attraction is, it seems to be part of the very essence of our human psyche. Add the extra beauty of skillfully-executed inlays, either of contrasting wood or abalone and mother-of-pearl - or other substances - and the creative possibilities are truly astonishing.

I have no doubt that if one had the necessary money, a steel builder would make you a lacquered wood cabinet with massively intricate inlays to rival those on the most expensive banjoes or guitars. However, there is a limit to which we will extend in what we pay, and ultimately there is a fine line between extreme beauty and "bling". The point at which that line is crossed can be very hard to determine. Also, tastes change as years go by. I vividly recall the stocks on Weatherby rifles of the 60s and 70s, with massive, extreme Monte Carlo-style cheekpieces and rollover combs which today look very dated.

Bling is all very well, but in most cases it doesn't necessarily equate to tone, although it may help sell guitars (as it undoubtedly does in the world of the flattop acoustic). But I think we all can agree that figured maple is a thing of great beauty when it is finioshed by a master craftsman.

The other given is pretty much self-evident:-

a mica-finished steel-guitar will be more durable in the "school of hard knocks" than a highly figured-maple, lacquered guitar. Care and maintenance will likely be less rigorous than for a lacquered wood finish, and there are some very impressive mica finishes available these days.

Plain mica is timeless, and plain black mica is perhaps the ultimate in timelessness, practicality and "muted good taste". If you interpret muted good taste to mean bland, you may do so by all means but this was certainly not my intention. The plain black mica steel may be the musical equivelent of the "little black dress"...you can take it anywhere and it will not look out-of-place.

I for one don't think all the creative possibilities for mica finishes have been explored by any means, and as is usual in miost creative endeavours, the limits are in our own minds rather than in the materials themselves.

For example, CNC-cut inlays for mica guitars might well transform a plain-Jane guitar into somethig of matchless beauty, bearing in mind my comment about looks becoming dated. Plain mica finishes have the great advantage of not looking dated at all, just timeless.

To me it seems the ball lies in the court of the steel-builders, and they will mostly build what the market has come to expect - what sells, in other words. This is not a criticism, because they build superb instruments which look and sound great. But every now and then a player will come along with a strange request; "could you inlay the front with lapis lazuli and inlay the frets with abalone?" or "could we maybe CNC-cut some inlays into the front mica and use holographic stuff so they are irridescent under stage lights?" or something similar - or wildly dis-similar if it comes to that. The limits are within us, we just have to extend the boundaries of what we consider looks good.

FWIW, my current steel, a Carter D10, is clear lacquer over sausage-quilted maple with abalone inlay strips on the front of the cabinet. My old Marlen D10 from 1976 was walnut formica with white formica trim on the sides of the necks.

(Apologies for a long-winded post.)