The Steel Guitar Forum

Herb - Scotty died in 1973...same year as Clarence.

Thanks for the mortality update, Jim. I know Scott passed away in '73. But he still is one of the greatest fiddlers I've ever seen. As is Benny Martin, who's also dead.

Or perhaps I should have used "was." I guess it depends on what your definition of "is" is.

Yeah, Stoneman was gone (unfortunately Clarence as well) just after I hit the bluegrass scene -met Clarence but never played with him, but regretted never meeting Scotty. The guy was the Yngwie Malmsteen of his day - I'e never heard another fiddler play SO darned fast and not sound like sloppy - perfect articulation. Just a shame.

Back to Warford for a moment - He's a friend so I'm a bit biased, but he's the single most underrated Tele players as far as influencing *other* players of all-time IMO. I've talked to many bender players who mention particular songs and say "wow, Clarence was over the top on (fill in the blank)..." - and it was actually Bob. I don't know single b-bender player who plays the "west coast" Stringbender style (less Albert Lee/Brent Mason speed picking with bender stuff thrown in - not a negative, just what has become more of a Nashville-type thing...even though Albert mostly plays with the CA country-rock crowd and lived here - and more syncopated, bizarrely-timed legato bends-out-of-nowhere) who doesn't rip off as much if not MORE (because it's slightly more "possible") Bob Warford licks and solos than Clarence stuff.

The Clarence White Form jams we have every year or two are interesting, because only 3 or so out of 9 or 10 bender guys that have shown play where you really hear a strong Clarence influence - mostly because of timing - and the rest sound like Warford...even when Warford is there. I think because Bb's timing is slightly more conventional more players find it easier to copy (if they're trying to emulate a player); Clarence, even wen he played simple things, had such varied attack and timing he really just stands alone; earlier things he did like stuff before he actually joined the Byrds and his playing up to "Untitled" are approachable, but that album was the departure IMO, and the point where the bender became a truly instrument all its own and Clarence blossomed into a player nobody could touch, not then and not now.

So Clarence is revered and almost worshipped in a way by some players - but *Bob* is the the one whose playing is copied more. I hadn't really thought about that - but just listened to recording from some jams and gigs and it's fascinating (at least to someone else who primarily has played b-bender for 30+ years).

And he was a killer banjo player as well (he can't play a lick on it now, oddly). Wrap that up with the medical and law degrees (he did everything on the medical side but take his boards) and Bob Warford is a real enigma - and musically unjustly overlooked...but he also is incredibly humble and couldn't care less.

And I still can't figure out HOW he can do all that stuff on a Tele that's virtually unplayable for anyone else, with low, buzzy action and almost nonexistent frets, tuners that are worn out with a quarter-turn of backlash, and a neck that's beaten, slightly warped and twisted.

He's not human.

Yeah, Stoneman was gone (unfortunately Clarence as well) just after I hit the bluegrass scene -met Clarence but never played with him, but regretted never meeting Scotty. The guy was the Yngwie Malmsteen of his day - I've never heard another fiddler play SO darned fast and not sound like sloppy - perfect articulation. Just a shame.

Back to Warford for a moment - He's a friend so I'm a bit biased, but he's the single most underrated Tele players as far as influencing *other* players of all-time IMO. I've talked to many bender players who mention particular songs and say "wow, Clarence was over the top on (fill in the blank)..." - and it was actually Bob. I don't know single b-bender player who plays the "west coast" Stringbender style who doesn't rip off as much if not MORE (because it's slightly more "possible") Bob Warford licks and solos than Clarence stuff.

It's less Albert Lee/Brent Mason speed picking with bender stuff thrown in (not a negative, just what has become more of a Nashville-type thing even though Albert mostly plays with the CA country-rock crowd and lived here) and more syncopated, bizarrely-timed legato bends-out-of-nowhere. Also lots of chimed-harmonic bends, which Clarence used often - but Bob plays a particular lick off an A chord that has become THE signature chimed bend.

The Clarence White Forum jams we have every year or two are interesting, because only 3 or so out of 9 or 10 bender guys that have shown play with a strong Clarence influence - mostly because of timing - and the rest sound like Warford...even when Warford is there. I think because Bob's timing is slightly more conventional more players find it easier to copy (if they're trying to emulate a player); Clarence, even when he played simple things, had such varied attack and timing he really just stands alone (especially from 1970 or so-on); earlier things he did like stuff before he actually joined the Byrds and his playing up to "Untitled" are approachable, but that album was the departure IMO, and the point where the bender became a truly instrument all its own and Clarence blossomed into a player nobody could touch - not then and not now.

So Clarence is revered and almost worshipped in a way by some players - but *Bob* is the the one whose playing is copied more. I hadn't really thought about that - but just listened to recording from some jams and gigs and it's fascinating (at least to someone else who primarily has played b-bender for 30+ years).

And he was a killer banjo player as well (he can't play a lick on it now, oddly). Wrap that up with the medical and law degrees (he did everything on the medical side but take his boards) and Bob Warford is a real enigma - and musically unjustly overlooked...but he also is incredibly humble and couldn't care less.

And I still can't figure out HOW he can do all that stuff on a Tele that's virtually unplayable for anyone else, with low, buzzy action and almost nonexistent frets, tuners that are worn out with a quarter-turn of backlash, and a neck that's beaten, slightly warped and twisted.

He's not human.

Jim

Are there some available recordings that feature Bob?

I do have a terrific video clip of the Everly Brothers doing 'Mama Tried' on TV with Bob on Tele, but I'd like to hear much more if it's out there.

Roger - On Youtube there is Silver Threads and Golden Needles - a good thing because it's one of the very few videos of Bob playing. There was a funny debate about a year go, where I was "fronting" for Bob as he's not a forum member - he SWORE the steel player was someone else, and Buddy finally posted - "nope, it was ME". Must have too much stuff in that brain!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FiKHaSRMeg

He's on several tunes on Gene Parson's "Kindling", "Uncle Dudley" on Paul Siebel's Jack Knife and Gypsies album (Clarence is one that one as well, playing on Pinto Pony). In fact that album was one thing that brought Bob to the attention of a lot of players when a Tele forum debate years ago used "Dudley" as an example of *Clarence's* playing!

Probably one of his best is the cut Dark End of the Street from one early Ronstadt album. It's a flat-out lesson in how to play "b-bender"...rather than "a Tele with a bender". And the one most copied is Willin' - also with Linda. Every country-rock bender player I've ever met has learned that one, and it's where the "signature" chime is on a studio recording.

Herb Pedersen's "Lonesome Feeling" has him all over it, and I think you can download a bunch of cuts from Robb Strandlund's site. There's also a Linda bootleg of a live radio show with Bob on bender and Skunk Baxter on Steel that is REALLY loose (errr, it sounds as if Linda and the band were perhaps taking herbal supplements that day...) - it's a "Bob show" as he handles most of the solos. I have it, but no place to upload it for access, unfortunately. If I can set it up I'll post a note. There are literally hundreds of other cuts, but they are hard to find; actually, he preferred touring with Linda, Emmylou for a while (sometimes WITH James Burton,and THOSE were nuts, as Emmylou liked to let the Hot Band rip) and the Everly Brothers for quite a while.

But Bob looks up to me:



...and hangs out wearing my older son Mike's NAMM badge with my son David and some dude in a beret...



Obviously from the shirt he's wearing in both pics the gig was NAMM-related. It was a Fender party at the Fullerton Museum, which still features (and that was about 7 years ago) a huge Leo Fender exhibit.

I lost track of it many years back, but I used to have a vinyl small 33 rpm record with Bob Warford and Gene Parsons playing bender licks and explaining them for instruction. Some real cool double bends and slide down bends, opposing direction bends. Wish I still had it.
Jimmy, I don't believe Bob was on the Kindling album from Gene. I could dig it out and look, but I'm pretty sure that was all Clarence and Gene playing guitar on that one.
Didn't Bob W. play some cuts with Rick Roberts? I seem to remember hearing a tune where he played virtually the same solo as on Ronstadt's "Willin'". Don't remember the song, just remember hearing on the radio back in the 70's.
I saw a show in '74 with Linda Ronstadt and Jackson Browne and the first notes I heard from stage was Bob W. hitting the A chord with the B open and bending it up into the chord. I looked over at the buddy with me and said "hey I think we're in for a treat." I was right. Wonderful show.

Thanks for the info, Jim.

BTW, I can't imagine mistaking the steel player on that clip!!!!

Dave, you're absolutely right - I was mixing my Gene Parsons albums up; Clarence was on Kindling, Bob on Melodies.

I've heard a 1970 unissued track by Chris Darrow with Nesmith's First National Band rhythm section and Bob.. they do a killer version of that country-rock chestnut "Reason To Believe".. it is to weep for.

Chris is sitting on some cool material, it will eventually all see the light of day, I think his 60s band the Floggs is next on the reissue list, so we'll have to wait some.

I'm not sure if anyone has noted the date, but the clip of the Everly's with Bob Warford, Robert Knigge and Tiny on drums is from a February 1971 Ed Sullivan, there's another song from the same show, "Bowling Green".. awesome, but kind of weird they're not doing newer material, but Warners really missed the boat with the country-rock Everly's.. Don's 1970 solo album is a good indicator of what could have been, plus of course the "Cuckoo Bird", "I'm On My Way Home Again" tracks from '69, the ones with Whitey that were previously mentioned.

most of the 1969 outakes and lost tracks contained in the 2006 Everly Bros. box set show what could have been, and then some.

Jim
Scotty didn't stay in Los Angeles very long. Maybe a year or so, then he went back to VA to rejoin the family. When Roland left to play guitar for Monroe, and Clarence was getting into sessions and the electric guitar, I think the KC's kinda lost the spirit, as it were. I recall some gigs that Dennis Morris came in on, maybe Kenny Wertz also. Billy Ray and Roger B. were the main singers then. Again I'm fogging up, but it seems to me that period was when the early incarnation of Country Gazette was about to take formation, more or less. I was starting to play with Ronstadt, touring a lot, and I left 'grass behind.

The last bluegrass gig I did was the Norco CA Festival in 1968. I believe Bob W. was there, still primarily a banjo player. I lost touch with most of it then as I went into the honky-tonks as a steel player to make some money.

My recollection of the predominant bluegrass banjo players in SoCal in those days (62-68 ) was Billy Ray, John McEuen, Bob W., Ron LeGrande, Dennis Coats, Pat Cloud, Doug Dillard, Bernie Leadon, Don Beck, and Don Parmley. I'm sure there were others but those are the guys I remember hanging with. Bob W. did have an incredibly light touch on the banjo, while McEuen used to really dig into it. Two monstrous players, two different right hand approaches.

Incidentally, here's a little known but contemporaneous tribute to Clarence. Ry Cooder was teaching at the same music school (the Ash Grove) that Clarence and Roland taught at. Ry's about 6 months older than I am. He came to me and pretty much said "I'm giving up flat-picking... it's finger-style only for me now." (paraphrasing RC). I asked him why and he said that Clarence is going to say all there is to be said on flatpick guitar and it served no purpose for him (RC) to pursue it.

Coming from Ry Cooder, that's a pretty serious compliment, I'd say.

IMHO, just like Auldridge is the bridge between Josh Graves (old-style dobro) and Douglas-Ickes-Kohrs-et al., and Bill Keith was the bridge between Earl Scruggs and the modern banjoists of today, Clarence was the bridge between Doc Watson and the Tony Rices, Dan Crarys of today.

Herb's right about Scotty, he didn't last out 1965, splitting around September of 1965, reportedly due to declining health, possibly brought on by excessive drinking. The following year he would rejoined the Stoneman Family, in Nashville.
The music press of the time would describe his stint with the Kentucky Colonels and move to the west coast simply as “a one year leave of absence.”

I've seen a pic of one of his 1966 sessions with the group in Nashville, he's bowing a banjo.. and they recorded that for at least one track for their 1967, by which time of course, Scotty was gone again.

The Kentucky Colonels refromed without Clarence in around January of 1967, with Eric White, Roland White, Bob Warford, Dennis Morse and fiddler Jimmy Crain.
Clarence rejoined them in February, and he split this band with two electric country bar bands he played with (The Reasons aka Nashville West and The Roustabouts) .. yes, that's three performing bands, plus his new lifestyle as a session player.

They were fairly active at the Ash Grove through March-April of '67, Clarence wasn't intending to join full-time, but seem to have in March.
In May of 1967 Roland White joined Bill Monroe's Blue Grass Boys on guitar, and the Kentucky Colonels disband. Although there were reunion gigs and informal jams, they didn't actually become a performing band again until 1973.

Nearly every picker Herb just mentioned; Billy Ray Lathum, John McEuen, Bob Warford, Ron LeGrande, Dennis Coats, Pat Cloud, Doug Dillard, Bernie Leadon, and Don Beck, went into country-rock or progressive - electric Bluegrass bands.

Bluegrass was effectively dead on the west coast, at least as a recording medium. The Dillards survived by mixing country-rock, folk-rock and pop into their sound, especially their records, between 1968-72.

The Country Gazette were the big west coast success in the 70s, the more traditional (but no less hot!) Bluegrass Cardinals had to leave the west coast to make a living as a working band.

After Clarence died, the Muleskinner album on Warners dissapeared. Warner's in turn, put their money into an East Coast effort, Eric Weissberg's Deliverance, which was okay, but nowhere near as promising as Muleskinner was. Possibly because most of the Deliverance guys (the band, not the hit soundtrack which inspired the group) were a bit too slick from working in the NY studio scene.

Warner's also put out a '73 album by Muleskinner's fiddler Richard Greene. (whom Herbster also mentioned earlier in relation to Scotty)
I've never seen or heard that album, it is apparently super-rare.

J.

Funny you guys mentioned Pat Cloud. He used to sit in with our band on Sunday nights at a local watering hole, playing bebop lines one minute and straight Scruggs the next. One of the funniest guys I have ever met in my life.

He was always down on his luck - banjo players obviously don't make a huge amount, and Pat had some other....issues...in those days. When he needed money he'd call me, we'd drive (make that *I'd* drive - his car NEVER ran)to Knott's, Chino, podunk desert towns - anywhere he knew there was a contest with a cash prize. I was his "contest rhythm" player because I could do bluegrass backup or Texas "Sock" rhythm, somehow follow his wacked-out modulations and time signatures (have you ever heard anyone play Shuckin' the Corn in 7/4 time? Much less try to play it WITH him with no rehearsal?) - and I lived about a half-mile away.

He NEVER had a plan. We'd show up, the other banjo players would start staring at the second and third place prizes, we'd go on stage and Pat would say "F#", give me 10 seconds to decide "capo or not" and rip into something and I'd "play and pray". He'd combine Seven Comes Eleven with Pike County Breakdown and some Bach piece in 2 or 3 keys. It was hilarious, taught me more than I ever learned about ear training, and I'd make $50-100 (usually first was $500 cash).

I'd kind of forgotten about that - he tried to teach me theory but at that time he was SO esoteric about it he was tough to understand. Those were fun times. Now he's an incredible teacher, and his banjo method book is truly amazing.

Thanks for the memories, guys!

Jim, you've probably heard this one before. but Pat played with a casual White Brothers jam (or two) at the Ash Grove in '72. There's a pic of Clarence White, Pat Cloud, Smoke Dawson, Leroy McNees and Eric White.
You could probably see a copy of that pic over at Thomas Abrunner's tribute webpage to CW.

I think Smoke Dawson later went on to Celtic instruments and then bagpipes, I think he was from the Bay Area scene. (where they were all as eccentric as Pat!)

Pat Cloud was also briefly with Kenny Wertz, Byron Berline and Roger Bush in an embryonic version of Country Gazette in 1971.. when they were gigging around, trying to get it all together between Burrito gigs. They went through a bunch of different pickers and combinations in the early days.

"Herb and Pat, an act as exciting as their names..." was how we billed ourselves.

Santa Monica CA 1967

Herb, great photo.. great facial hair arrangement too.

What was the occasion - event, do you recall?

OMG - I'm roflmao! Herb, that is a keeper...I'm forwarding it to Gary Dostalek and Bill Knopf, a couple of banjo contemporaries of Pat's. I'm almost sure I recognize you from that photo and that we crossed paths at some festival or two.

Gary and I played together for almost 20 years in a couple different bluegrass bands (and Pat was always an "ex officio" member - when he'd remember to show up!) - we got yanked from the Norco stage after 4 songs for playing a bluegrass version of the Stones' 19th Nervous Breakdown; and came in second in a contest because we didn't all wear the same shirts (Jethro Burns was one of the judges, and he was so steamed...he had us placed first...that he swore he'd never show his face at that festival again!) . Bluegrass was pretty regimented in the early 70's. This band was obviously a little too outlandish looking for the time - "name" players could get away with it, but those down just a notch had to toe the line. Like my mirrored sunglasses? Heck, I have almost the same facial hair as Herb!


Somewhere I think I have a pic of Pat wearing a bear suit playing at Disneyland...if I can find it I'll post it.

Jason - yeah, the cross-pollination was fun. We were all just a few years younger so we missed Clarence and Roland as far as playing - we were around playing with Beaver Creek (our band, known for great instrumental work and absolutely abysmal vocals!), Hot off the Press, and the rest of guys who were in and out of Byron Berline's "Sundance" group - John Hickman, his brother George (sometimes our bass player), Alan Wald (the second pedal steel player I ever knew after J.B. Crabtree), Dan Crary, Albert Lee, and some kid madolin player named Vince Gill who used to annoy us by always wanting to be the "front" guy! J.B. was playing dobro with the Sweethearts of the Rodeo at Straw Hat Pizza in Manhattan Beach, where I'd sit in on guitar or mando and all the above would show up periodically (or at jams at a house on the Strand).

A few years later "the place" was the Banjo Cafe in Santa Monica - our Tuesday night jams were insane; There was a loose "house band" - I'd switch between guitar, dobro, mando, bass and even occasional banjo depending on who showed up, Pat was a regular (he lived a few blocks away then), David Grisman was almost a regular, driving down from the Bay area once or twice a month, and Bill Monoe & band even showed up unannounced one Tuesday when they were booked for later in the week. THAT was like having God show up in your living room (topped only by a moonshine party on his bus and Mr. Bill handing me his mandolin to play).

I'm sure Clarence would have been around all this as well if he'd still been alive - like Albert Lee and Byron, he was legendary for playing anywhere, any time, with anyone.

Oddy, for your historical records...

There used to be concerts at a small pavilion on the beach in Santa Monica. I really don't recall what the show was.

I believe this photo was taken at the time I was predominantly playing in The Joplin Forte, with Dennis Coats and Gary Carlson.

The JF's had a regular gig at the Straw Hat Pizza Parlor, previously mentioned by Jim. Then in early 1968 I got drafted, so I left the group. Gary and Dennis eventually moved up to Idaho. Anyway, at the last minute my induction was cancelled for medical reasons, and then Ronstadt called needing a dobro player, told me to get a steel... etc. You know the story from there.

I got back in touch with Dennis a couple years ago; he's still up in Idaho, but I don't know where Gary Carlson is.

How I got the photo after 40 years was this: When I was in college at what is now CSUN, the Shank Bros (Erik and Al, who's also a Forumite) and I used to hang out at Chuck Erikson's banjo factory in the wee hours of the AM. Chuck is now a wholesale pearl and abalone supplier (the Duke of Pearl), and we ran into each other at the NAMM show 3 years ago when it was here in Austin. Chuck and his wife came over to our house and we had a great reunion. Chuck then pulled out some memorabilia that totally exploded my gray matter, including this photo. Why he was carrying this stuff with him is a mystery to me, because our running in to each other after 4 decades was definitely unplanned by me. Maybe he knew he could look me up or something... anyway, that's how I came into possesion of it.

So, I immediately Googled Pat and got back in touch with him, emailed him a copy, and we got caught up on old times, and discussed teaching methods, grokked each others websites, and generally picked up like it was only a few years, not decades.

Incidentally, the San Fernando Valley and the San Gabriel Valley had some great luthiers in those days. Chuck made Erika Banjos, and Roy Noble lived a couple miles from Chuck's place, so we'd sometimes party at Roy's, though he was usually much too dour and cerebral to really enjoy himself. We'd occasionally be joined by Bob Givens, now deceased, before Tut Taylor moved him to Georgia to counterfeit F-5's.

Great pic Herb!! Do you still have that mando? What was it?

Respectfully,
dave burr

It's a 1939 F-5, and I no longer own it. I bought it in 1966 for $600, and sold it in 1975 to make a down payment on my first house, which turned out to be a super money maker for me, so all turned out okay.

Herb, was Dennis Coats a bass player? When I was in Eddy Drake's band, the bass player was named Dennis Coats........JH in Va.

Jerry
Dennis was the banjo player. Like I said, I drifted away from 'grass and into country-rock, then straight honkytonk country, then I moved to TX in early '72 to rejoin Murphey. So it depends when you played with Drake. He could have become a bass player during the time I became a steel player and then after I left town. It would have been early 70's.

Dennis did show up one night at a gig I had at the Holiday II in El Monte with Jimmy Lawton. Dennis was tall, well-built, and blonde. Looked like a surfer who played football. Was that him?

Ironically, DC was the first guy to talk to me about bass fishing, which became my main avocation in 1980 and remains so to this day.

Jim
When Murphey came back through LA to add me to his Texas band, I had the gig at the Holiday II. I called Sneaky and he filled in for me the entire week... The pay? 35 bucks a night. Which was good money for the honkytonks in those days, but not what Pete was accustomed to receiving, fer sure.

Herb Steiner wrote:It's a 1939 F-5, and I no longer own it. I bought it in 1966 for $600, and sold it in 1975 to make a down payment on my first house, which turned out to be a super money maker for me, so all turned out okay.

Sounds like it all worked out ok! I just saw it's older brother, by a year (1938), listed on Mandolin Cafe Classifieds for $49K!!

Respectfully,
dave burr

I reckon there's two Dennis Coats, the other one, who played bass in country bar bands is the same one who worked with Danny Michaels for a stint in the late 70s.

Herb's ex-bandmate, recorded an album with the Joplin Forte in 1968 as the Original Jopin Forte (geddit!) Dennis Coats, Gary Carlson, Pat Ball, and Monte Papke. Prod by George Fernandez for the short lived Shamley label.
http://www.bsnpubs.com/mca/shamley.html

As mentioned earlier, Dennis Coats and Gary Carlson teamed up as a duo, tried country-rock and then joined singer Brune Innes in his The Original Caste in 1972. they were a kind of MOR sunshine-pop group, quite good actually, but the boys joined at then end of the line. A shame they didn't record.

Dennis left SoCal around 1974, later hooked up with the John Denver crowd and had a song or two recorded by various singers. eg: “I Hate It, But I Drink It Anyway” by Mickey Gilley around 1978.

http://www.denniscoats.com/

thanks for the info Herb, not sure I realised you were with the Forte that late in the game, not many of your contemporaries got an album out in that period. The Kentucky Colonels couldn't ever get a decent album deal and the Dillard didn't have an album in the 1966-67 period at all. Tough times.

Clarence was a great player and a huge inspiration.
I was really lucky a few years back I was the stage manager for the Dauphin Country Music festival and Marty Stuart let me play Clarence White"s B-Bender Tele,never forget that day.