What makes a ShoBud sound have that sound

Clyde Mattocks · Post by **Clyde Mattocks** » 7 Sep 2008 4:37 pm

I don't want to stray too much from the original question. "What makes a SHO-BUD have that sound",
but the characteristic sound of any make comes in
large part from the mass of that particular brand,
how and where the assembly screws are located (and
how tight), design of the metal parts (again part of the mass), and certainly the pickup. My opinion, of course, but based on a certain degree of experience.

b0b and others have pointed out that changing the pickup will change the sound of a particular guitar, but I am speaking of the differences in STOCK models
from brand to brand.

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 7 Sep 2008 6:25 pm

When I was in the Jackson room last week in St. Louis, I was standing next to Harry Jackson as we listened to Steve Smith play the new Pro IV. It suddenly dawned on me that I was standing next to the man who designed and wound the pickups that amplified the steel guitar on thousands of hits. I agree that the pickup is certainly a significant factor in the Sho~Bud sound. You can thank Harry for that sweet, identifiable whine that tells you that you're sitting behind a big old Professional. There are other factors for sure, but I think Harry deserves a boat load of credit for the pickup design of the Sho~Bud, and his current pickup designs found on the Jackson guitars. David's changer designs were a huge innovation as well. There is so much to celebrate about the Sho~Bud guitar.

Marc Jenkins · Post by **Marc Jenkins** » 7 Sep 2008 6:48 pm

Chris, what's the deal with the Pro IV compared to the other Jackson steels?

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 7 Sep 2008 7:20 pm

Marc, the Pro IV does not have the lowers on the tuners, like the Commemorative. The changer is different, I do believe. There are other differences. I am not too sure about the specs. The two that were on display in St. Louis sounded like a choir of angels coming down from above.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 8 Sep 2008 4:59 am

James, there is actually no inlay on the back apron, so that's not what I see. I am more and more convinced it is just a thick coat of lacquer. Still can't explain the brownish line though.

And actually, the case is in only fair shape at best.

The main thing is that it plays and sounds nice. And real purty too.

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 8 Sep 2008 6:02 am

The "Pickup" is NOT the sound of the Shobud.
The pickup only picks up the vibration of the strings and so the sound is "what are the strings vibrating on??" What is that made out of?? How is that mounted?? and what is it mounted to?? Materials/design/mass....and so on....is the sound.
Yes you can have weak pickups; you can have strong pickups....you can have many variations in the way the vibrations are picked up/mic-ed, and how they are amplified; but the sound of the Shobud or any steel guitar you are playing; is what are the strings vibrating on.
Shobud did a spray texture underneath to try and dead'en the sound of the mechanics. The texture was glue-based and so therefore if you scrap some off; you won't see the wood in it's true form; until you actually sand all the way past the gluebase. Shobud used either birdseye maple for bodies and necks and aprons(the aprons are screwed/glued on....>or hard rock maple for the body and birdseye for necks and aprons. Early shobuds(fingertips and permenants)used some other woods also sometimes.
The body and aprons were mainly 3/4" thick from the professional on up to the superpro.
Of course some fingertip and permenants had 3/4" thickness....some didn't.
There's my input and opinions of what I found through the years of playing and working on many many shobuds.
Ricky

Norris Ashment · Post by **Norris Ashment** » 8 Sep 2008 7:38 am

Well I've been waiting for you to jump in here RICKY, now all we need is JOHN !! Thanks pal. I remember John telling me the effect of his changers on the tone but can' remember what he said.
Clyde and you are saying the same thing which is the meat of the constuction.
You know we may never solve all the mysteries of the world on here but it is sure a lot of fun trying on this subject. Not a bad way to kill a little time.

Clyde Mattocks · Post by **Clyde Mattocks** » 8 Sep 2008 7:49 am

Ricky, I give your observations a lot of weight, not
because they generally agree with mine, but because
of your extensive under the hood, get your hands
dirty, experience with Sho Buds.

Another difference in Sho Buds and Emmons or Mullen
is the castings (endplates, keyheads, top plates).
Sho Buds are coarser, greasier and will not buff out to as high a mirror finish. There is a paralell
discussion in banjo circles concerning that the old pre war Mastertones had cheap pot metal parts, whereas the new ones have finely machined high quality alloys. Does this make a difference? I don't know, just more fodder for discussion.

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 8 Sep 2008 8:04 am

Clyde; I certainly have you at the very top of my all time favorite knowledgable guys.....
I believe you worked with Leonard Stadler at one time; didn't you?? Your knowledge of Marlen's and all steel guitars is beyond most; and thanks for your kind words and input.
I agree; those castings certainly add to the resonance of the vibration set by the strings.
Cool Norris; yes the quality of material is so important, and this is what Coop has perfected.
To me; the designs of the shobud are great....but the quality of material and craftsmanship of that material and the fitting and measurements of that material....is what ran by the wayside at Shobud. Coop has perfected those downfalls......
I've recorded with of course my LDG which is all original...and I recorded with a professional with Coops fingers and pulling system in it...and it is scary how great and Shobud-esk the coop fingers are and do not change the tone/voice of the instrument; only adds to the actual quality of the sound.
It's like a singer that sings great but never learned how to breath properly.....>then she goes to a voice coach and learns how to breath.....now her delivery is better and tone/voice is the same; but now enhanced to a much higher quality of overall sound.
Ricky

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 8 Sep 2008 8:14 am

The EXTREMELY close tolerances to which Shobud worked can be clearly seen in this pic!

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 8 Sep 2008 8:22 am

Well, Ricky is right of course, but so is b0b. The unamplified timbre of the instrument imparted by the body and fittings is always there, regardless of pickup. But, we usually listen to the instrument amplified by a pickup. So, what we usually hear is a combination of the timbre of the instrument and the characteristics of the pickup - and the cords, volume pedal, amp and speaker(s). And if you change the mechanics out for Coop parts, you hear that in the final sound too. The timbre imparted by the original wood body and neck is always there, but so is the particular tone of the pickup and other electronic components - if you have the power on. So everybody should be happy now.

Except of course those who think it's all in the hands.

Clyde Mattocks · Post by **Clyde Mattocks** » 8 Sep 2008 8:38 am

Ricky, I didn't work for Leonard, but I spent a lot of time with him when he was building his first guitars with a hacksaw and file. Marvin Hudson was
collaborating with him and winding the pickups. (I have Marvin's old winder). I had three Marlens and was in his first endorsee promo folder.

Claro Daughety and I built Cherokees, probably a
hundred or so before his health started to decline.
Claro did the bodies and I did the mechanics and electronics.

I know this gets off the subject of Sho Bud, but I have worked on a lot of them, and I wanted to answer Ricky's question.

Bent Romnes · Post by **Bent Romnes** » 8 Sep 2008 9:21 am

Frank Raines wrote:Go to >Steel on the web< page 1 listen to Waylon songs showing The Moon on steel
1) on a Professional (young Moon)
2) on a Super Pro ( Little older Moon)
OUTSTANDING

What Frank meant was to post a link like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VXwGDC6ZaE
to show y'all the Moon clip that I posted earlier

Norris Ashment · Post by **Norris Ashment** » 8 Sep 2008 9:48 am

I don't think its a bit off the subject, how could you know about about what makes a ShoBud tone if you didn't know about the the construction compared to other guitars. Hope I said that right. Its guys like you and Ricky thats under the hood of these things that makes your opinion so valuable.

Norris Ashment · Post by **Norris Ashment** » 8 Sep 2008 9:52 am

Bent if you only knew how many times I've watched this video !! A Couple More Years

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 8 Sep 2008 10:22 am

Harry and David Jackson are good people to contact about Sho~Bud guitars as well. They can be reached through the Jackson steel guitar site. I've had many Sho~Bud questions answered by the Jacksons, as well as many myths dispelled. They are, after all, the primary source for Sho~Bud. Unbiased? Probably not. But still an obvious resource for their own brand of guitar.

Norris Ashment · Post by **Norris Ashment** » 8 Sep 2008 10:28 am

You know Chris I thouth about doing just that but figured they didn't have time for my nonsence

admin · Post by **b0b** » 8 Sep 2008 10:51 am

Well, I say that the sound is "mostly" in the pickup because if you change the pickup, it doesn't sound much like a Sho-Bud anymore. That has been my experience. Similarly, if you put a Sho-Bud pickup in a different guitar, it will sound a lot more like a Sho-Bud. Not exactly, but the pickup brings out a midrange that is characteristic of "the Sho-Bud sound".

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 8 Sep 2008 10:52 am

Norris, I do think they are far more excited about their latest designs, but David has always been open to my questions concerning the Sho~Bud design.

It's easy for builders with CNC machines and such these days to put the old Sho~Buds under the microscope. But for the technology they had, I think they did a fine job. I love my original rack and barrel Professional. It plays and sounds as great as the day it left the factory, and it is a beautiful monument to steel guitar history in its original state.

b0b, I have an old Thompson steel that has a Sho~Bud pickup in it. The guitar has a fiberglass neck on it. It doesn't really resemble a Sho~Bud at all. But it sounds awfully close to one.

Harry Jackson's innovative and distinctive pickup design cannot be discounted as a significant piece in the Sho~Bud puzzle. I've only owned 6-7 Sho~Buds, but I've gigged with them all. Without a doubt, the pickup design united all of them in tone. The only oddball was a Pro 1 I had with an E-66 in it. I actually liked the sound, but it wasn't classic 'Bud.

Bent Romnes · Post by **Bent Romnes** » 8 Sep 2008 11:03 am

Norris Ashment wrote:Bent if you only knew how many times I've watched this video !! A Couple More Years

Norris, Yes it's a great tune, played on a great classic, by a great picker. I must have played the tune 25 times myself.
It grows on you. I am practicing it a bit every day, trying to make my own version.

Greg Cutshaw · Post by **Greg Cutshaw** » 8 Sep 2008 11:04 am

The pickup has a HUGE affect on the sound. As I said above, I did the pickup swap in my Sho-Bud and the entire character of the sound changed.

I have found that most modern pickups all sound similar with maybe slight changes in tone between pickups. So maybe switching between one modern high impedance pickup to another modern high impedance pickup would only have a minor impact in sound.

For example, if you took a pickup , like the Emmons Pentad, put if in a Sho-Bud and switched it to out of phase, the tone wold be radically different ( I tried that) from a stock sho-Bud pickup. Changing a pickup's construction can affect the bass response, midrange and treble. The phase response as a function of frequency can also be altered.

The Emmons pickup that came on the C6th neck of my Sho-Bud certainly did not make it sound like an Emmons guitar, but it sounded nothing like a Sho-Bud tone.

If I hadn't tried it myself I wouldn't be talking about it here.

Greg

Norris Ashment · Post by **Norris Ashment** » 8 Sep 2008 11:52 am

You know BOB youve gotta love a guy that sticks to his convicttions. Thats a little rare.
Between you and Greg youve made me want to get a hold of one of the old ones and put thru its paces on a guitar and with all my electronic test EQ.

Did the ShoBud pickup design change much over the years in design or are they all the same ????????

?? Could be a way to have some fun, learn something and at my speed kill a year.

Greg Cutshaw · Post by **Greg Cutshaw** » 8 Sep 2008 1:45 pm

Let's get an old Sho-Bud pickup mounted on an MSA quick change plate! All the better to swap it back and forth before the memory of what the other pickup sounds like fades away!

Greg

Norris Ashment · Post by **Norris Ashment** » 8 Sep 2008 2:02 pm

First Greg you kinda gotta have one, that why my question above about the design

Bo Legg · Post by **Bo Legg** » 8 Sep 2008 2:40 pm

I've never really played or heard Sho-Bud that didn't have humbuckers. Too me the real Sho-Bud sound is with the humbuckers.
I can't stand the original single coil pickups on the Sho-Buds. About the only thing they really pickup is the 60 cycl and noise if your trying to play at higher volumes. I have had as many as 5 Sho-Buds at one time and I presently have 3. Maybe all those old single coils were just bad.

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What makes a ShoBud sound have that sound

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