The Steel Guitar Forum

Chip,
I hope I didn`t come across as a know-it-all...
I certainly didn`t want to dismiss your opinions.
I, too, had two Pro IIIs years ago. I remember the tone as being gorgeous and the sustain really long. Wouldn`t mind getting one of them back and comparing it to my present guitars.Would mind carrying one, though....

Olli,

You never come across to me as a know-it-all. Absolutely not.

I actually look forward to what you have to say on many topics. You're pretty right-on most of the time.

I'm sure my playing style over the years from the S-B to the Williams has changed. I just don't do as much chiming anymore (not sure why this is, either). I guess it's the style of players and music I'm involved with now.

But the Williams and the S-B Pro III certainly are different beasts. I like both of them.

And yes, as far as lugging them around, the S-B loses out on this count. I think the D-10 weighed in around 70lbs in the case.

Any resemblance between a guitar and a PSG is the mouse ears (keyed tuners)a few string gauges, and the tendency to tune the PSG to an open string chord base from the guitar = # keys. Take away the mouse ears and there is not much left from the past.

I like the idea of keyless. I do/did not like the string yanker needed to change the G# (0.011) on the Sierra keyless/gearless. To reduce the need, have the keyless tuner lever for G# (0.011) cut short so that it takes more turns to bottom it against the body.

A tuning screw with more threads per inch would make the knobs easier to turn, and increase the tuning resolution, or the knobs can be left off the tuning screw and a wrench used.

My solution to the above issues was to integrate the keyless tuner into the changer...again the option of knobs or wrench. The string goes thru a hole in the tuning lever and pull against the ball. This makes a shallow angle for the string across the finger.

The string retention is the "under the screw head" except for the fat strings which are "thru a hole" with the screw point pressing against it to hold. No string centering screw or ? needed as in the latest Excel, and no nut rollers needed.

My vote is for keyless, but there are a variety of keyless types now, and more to come.

Ed, I too don't like the string yanker on the Sierra. So I made a tool to help, as I don't have any string breakage I change all the strings at one time in the comfort of my home. The below tool is only a prototype to work out what is needed to make it easier to change the strings, so far I have changed a complete set with great ease and not having to wrap the string around the silly string puller that comes with the guitar and try and struggle with holding the string tight with one hand and with the other hand tighten down the allen screw.

First I place the string into position and lightly tighten the holding screw to hold the string in place, then attach the string end to the tool , then undo the allen screw and pull the leaver until the string is almost in tune, then tighten down the allen screw to secure the string, a quick check on the tuning and snap off the waste part of the string. bingo.
This may seen longwinded but it is very quick to do.
I will refine the tool and publish the results....

I just grab the string with a pair of pliers to pull it tight. I thought that the Sierra "string puller" was really awkward, and the inventions (like John Roche's and Carl Dixon's) to take its place seem overly complicated to me. I just grab the new string with the pliers in my left hand, pull it tight, and tighten down the screw with my right hand.

It's a lot easier than threading a tuning key!!

I find no need for anything but my hand except for the G#, and F# strings....and then there is learning to "walk" the string tension up with the holding screw; it pulls the string when tightened, so pull tighten, keep pulling, loosen the screw a bit, keep pulling, retighten etc. till within about one halftone of pitch.

Even less of an issue if the G# lever arm has been machined down.

John...That will work, the holding screw just needs a partial wrap. My lowest string is a tow rope, and I found the added clamp washer offensive.

First pic is the integrated keyless tuner and changer...no knobs on the tuner screws. No string pulling needed.



Second pic is the string retainer (gee, where have I seen this approach before?)and interchangeable rod type nut.



Third pic is the integrated tuner/changer with knobs.



The use of the integrated tuner/changer does not preclude returning to the pin/slot type changer as that still exists on the unit. The tuner arms are attached to the changer fingers by a single screw per arm/finger. I attached my first set without removing the changer.

If I had control of the changer machining, I would mount them on an axle as part of the changer.

Keyless guitars disturb my sense of aesthetics. Other than that, it's a great concept. How about making one with a faux (another big word) keyhead. Perhaps conventional keys aligned in a typical rhombus (ooohh) pattern pulling on cables that actuate a current design keyless mechanism would satisfy my sensibilities (oooh again).
I think a comment from forum member and english language formulator extrodinaire, Bill Hankey, would be appropriate here.

Everyday, I like my new BMI Keyless better.

This is a real change for me, but I can already tell it does stay in tune well, sounds great and is very solid.

Terry Wood

Earlier in this thread b0b mentioned something about tonal differences between keyed and keyless guitars. To paraphrase his remarks: Because of sympathetic vibrations behind the nut on keyed guitars, timber is different from string to string. This is due to differences in excess string lengths behind the nut. On keyless guitars timber is more even across the strings. This may account for a more blended sound on keyless guitars and more string separation (tonally) on keyed guitars. b0b, that's a very astute observation. My keyless '83 Sierra S14 guitar always had a mellow and different character to it's sound when compared with my Emmons p/p guitars. I could never figure out a specific reason for this, but your observation seems to be spot-on, in my opinion.

I always liked my Sierra, but I never found the keyless tuners to be of any advantage. Quite the opposite, in fact. Since it was a '83 guitar, it had Sierra's first generation keyless tuner (Sperzle tuning key handles instead of hex head tuners). The delrin string puller always required alot of effort to bring enough tension to accommodate final tuning with the key handles. I always hated "wrestling with the string puller", especially if I was on stage and had to do it fast. I've always been able to change strings on keyed guitar more quickly than I ever could on the '83 Sierra. Regarding the remarks about required tools. Functionally, none are needed on a keyed guitar. On a keyless guitar, strings cannot be removed or installed without specific tools.

Ed Packard made a remark that eludes to the fact that all keyless systems have limited tensioning range compared to the limitless design of keyed tuners. He's absolutely correct. Normally, this isn't too much of a problem. But, if the guitar has an aluminum cabinet (like Sierras) which promotes thermal expansion and contraction; and the guitar is played in a hot environment, such as an outside stage, in full midday, summer sun, in some place like Phoenix, AZ or Austin, TX, the strings will heat up, expand and pitch will drop. If they heat up too much, you could run out of tuning range. This happened to me with the Sierra. The stage was around 105 degrees. I ended up tuning down from E9/B6 to D9/A6. It was funky, because at the lowered pitch, the string gauges weren't quite right for the pedal/knee lever changes. This problem would not have occurred with a conventional keyed guitar. I must say, however, the Williams keyless tuner does appear to have a sufficient limited range to accommodate quite a bit of string expansion.

I have no experience with other keyless systems. So these problems may not be as pronounced on subsequent Sierra designs or other brands.

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn

Glenn, sounds like you've never tried a Kline! None of these problems happen with a Kline Keyless. No string-puller is required for the 3rd string. There's more than enough travel to play next to a blast furnace! As for the "required" tool? It's the same nifty little wrench you use to adjust your pulls. And you don't need nippers cuz you just wiggle the unused string end back and forth a few times, and it snaps right off.

Tone and timbre? You might be right.

John, you're probably right. My friend, and fellow Austin picker, Jon Jaffe speaks very highly of his Kline's attributes.

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn

Glenn, when I had just gotten my guitar, I stopped at Joe's shop to have him change a lower. In his office, I saw a Fender 6-string neck with his keyless tuner affixed where the peghead used to be. Kinda Steinberger-like! Wish I'd bought it!
JB

The integrated changer/keyless tuner solves all the problems re string yankers, adjustment for temperature changes, and the like.

The string retainer "tool" is the stub of an Allen wrench press fitted into the back side of the tuning rod wrench...so NO extra tools involved.

I always use two tools when restringing a keyed guitar: wirecutters to clip off the excess length, and needle-nose pliers to thread the string through the hole. These things are in my kit whether I play keyed or keyless.

The tool for tuning is the same tool that I use to tune the pedals and levers. It's always handy in a block that clips onto the leg of the guitar.

I just don't buy the "extra tools" argument. I use exactly the same tools for keyed vs. keyless.

When I went to buy my Kline, I asked the seller "How on earth do I change strings?" He said, "You put the string thru the hole in the tuner finger. Wrap it around the screw on top. Tighten that screw, wiggle the string and it'll snap off. Then adjust the screw in back." Takes less than 1/3 the time of stringing a keyed tuner! If you look at my pic in the middle of page 2, you'll see the wrench in the tuner. The other end is for adjusting raises and lowers. So,,, actually fewer tools needed.

b0b, I understand your point. But, what I meant by "functionally" is; on my Emmons p/p, I can remove, replace, and tune up-to-pitch any string without the use of any tool, if I have to. This means it will have the extra string length coming off of the shaft on the tuning key, but it will be playable. A potentially important factor in a live performance situation. I don't see where that's possible on a keyless guitar. Yes, I know the extra string length can be sharply bent and snapped off, on a keyless guitar. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking strictly string removal, installation, and tune-up.

Also, I'm not against keyless tuning systems. I'm just pointing out the differences I've experienced.

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn

Back in the seventies my first visit to a real steelguitarshop was in Maidstone England, Eric Snowball sold all the major US makes but mostly ZB's.
I actually sat down a double neck ZB that had one keyless neck and one normal neck (I must have a picture of it somewhere) I was told that it belonged to Red Rhodes
The precent owner of that guitar should join this discussion.There is no better way of comparing I think.

Our English friends probably know who owns that guitar right now

At first, I fumbled a bit getting the hang of the keyless changer.

But now, I can change strings quicker than I can play.

I do have a complaint about the older Williams like I have (400, I think). The changer end has slots to hold the string's ballend ala old Sho-Buds.

All the slots are equal in width, and when it comes to fitting in the thickest string, #12, it's not an easy task. Sometimes I use a pair of fat-flatsurface electrician's pliers to squeeze the ballend flatter.

This doesn't always work, so it's out to my shed and the bench vise, which usually remedies the problem.

The string will catch, without going thru the flattening, but it's just hit or miss, until it catches. ie - you could sit there for an hour, or 2 minutes, to see if it catches.

It's still a fine U-12, though.

Chip, I came across that problem with a guitar a few months ago. I took a small file and made the slot a tiny bit wider. Won't ever be a problem again!

Glen,

Over the past year I have had the chance to use a keyed and a keyless guitar in the same venues. I used them both indoors and outside. In the 100 degree heat outdoors and as cold as 40 the Kline stayed tuned far better than the Zum. The pitch of the strings would change proportionately with the temperature, but the guitar stayed in tune. It seems to me that this is related to even string length beyond the rollers.

As far as changing strings, the Kline is quicker than any keyed guitar with tools or without. I have not changed strings on a Williams, BMI, or Sierra, but a Lamar seems to be quick as well.

Let's look more closely at the tools.

Keyless tools:

Keyed Tools:

The GFI is really easy to hang strings, a wire cutter and phillips screwdriver that's it. Much quicker than keyed, no tricky anything. JP

Bobby Lee, I think that your description of keyed verses keyless should be in the dictionary. I have never heard it described better.

The problem with the Sierra Session uni is that unless you load the string as tight as can ( within a tone of the required note ) then you will run out of adjustment as the thumb screws are quite short.

They be UGLY!