The Steel Guitar Forum

b0b wrote:

Ben Jones wrote:bOb...THATS IT!! exactly. the next position up from that would be the one most guitarists would tackle as their first "pocket" and how you have it diagramed is exactly how it its most prevalant in the 6 string lit. Thank you for those diagrams, they WILL be helpful...got the next position?

The "next position" is 3 frets above the key fret and involves a lot of use of the A pedal. I'm at a loss at how to show it because, as others have pointed out, it's pretty much all at the same fret. That's where you'll find The Allman Bros. "One Way Out" solo. It's all at one fret on pedal steel, bouncing on the A pedal to slide the b7 note up to the root on the 5th string.

I need to know more about that postion. I know how it works for major stuff with AF ..but never use it for bluesy stuff with just the A pedal. I need to get on that and learn some licks there in that spot. The first diagram you posted BOb, was three or four frets down from root...the one you are talking about with the A pedal is three up from root. The one most 6 string guitarists start with is AT root. I have a box diagram for this position, just wanted to compare it to yours if you had one.

as always, Ive learned from this thread...thanks.

I think this is the position B0b is talking about.

It's "3 frets up" from open position to get the minor scale notes you're looking for (the pentatonic scale):

10th String (w/ A-pedal down)(root note)
8th String
7th String
6th String
5th String
5th String (w/ A-Pedal down)(high root)


And to continue on into the next octave:
5th String (w/ A-pedal down)(root)
4th String
1st String
3rd String
3rd String (slide up 3 frets)
3rd String (slide up 2 frets) (high root)

++
Notice that this is the same fret (and pedal) you use to get a minor chord. No surprise there; where you find minor chords, you'll also find minor scales. And where you find minor scales, you find rock/blues licks.

Similarly, the other positions on the neck where you find a minor chord you'll also find a rock pocket. Like, say, 3 frets up from pedals-down... using BC pedals. I laid that position out in a prior post (although in that example, I used AB- instead of BC-pedals... but either combo gets you the notes you need).

This 3-frets-up A pedal minor position is actually the relative minor position. So at the 8th or C fret, you get the relative minor, Am. At the 3rd or G fret, you get Em, etc.

On a uni you get a full octave of open minor chord below what you can get on 10-string. So you can grab power chords down there for rhythm work.

This A pedal minor position has become a second home for me for blues. Naturally, it's the home position for minor blues. While the whole pentatonic minor scale lines up on that one fret, nearby frets and pedal or lever combinations get you all the pentatonic scale chords. At the root minor fret, if you let up the A pedal you get the bIII, two frets up is IV, and two more frets up is V. And three frets up from that V, hitting the E-lower lever gives the first inversion of the tonic minor with the high root on string 3. It is very useful to do a phrase at that high tonic position, and then repeat the phrase (on different strings) an octave lower at the A pedal minor position.

Moving down from the A pedal minor position, drop down one fret and add the B pedal for V (if you have a G lever, add it for V7), and of course IV is two frets below that. From the A pedal minor position, drop down two frets and add the F lever for the bVII. And three frets below that (same combination) is V. So for example in the key of A minor, you can do a harmonized pentatonic scale walk up by starting on the 3rd fret with the A and F combination (preferably using the power chord grip of strings 10, 6, 5) for an E chord (V); move up three frets (now you're on the 6th fret, same combination, same strings) for a G chord (bVII); then move up and land on the tonic minor at fret 8, and let off the F lever, but hold the A pedal.

It is very useful to learn to walk up and down the neck on the pentatonic scale chords: I, bIII, IV, V, bVII, I. In a minor key, the I chords would be minors, but the intervals for all the others are the same, whether it's a major or minor key. And all the chords but the tonic are major, in both major and minor keys. If you minor the other chords, you are moving into jazz territory, and they double as M7 chords.

Ben Jones wrote:The first diagram you posted BOb, was three or four frets down from root...the one you are talking about with the A pedal is three up from root. The one most 6 string guitarists start with is AT root. I have a box diagram for this position, just wanted to compare it to yours if you had one.

I don't play blues very much in that "at root" position. It's too easy to slip up and hit the 2nd, 3rd or 6th strings, which are wrong more often than they're right. The "blues pocket" isn't at that fret. That's where the "country pocket" is.

The country licks are mostly at the I, IV and V frets.
The blues licks are mostly at the bIII, bVI and bVII frets.

In G, the country (major 6) licks are mostly at frets 3, 8 and 10.
In G, the blues (minor 7) licks are mostly at frets 6, 11 and 13 (or 1).

There's a lot of music that mixes the two, but I think that's beyond the scope of this discussion.

My own "aha moment" for blues steel happened one night as I watch Roy Rogers play blues in E on bottleneck guitar tuned to E major. I was surprised at how much he played at the 3rd and 10th frets, The "root" frets were mostly used for power chords. All of the subtle licks involved notes at the 3rd or 10th fret. A month later I could play blues on pedal steel. Up until then, I had always tried to play blues licks at the root frets, and they never sounded right.

Roy's a real treasure around these parts. We're lucky to have him living here. I owe him for that "lesson", big time.

b0b's right, you have to be careful what string you hit at that root fret for blues. But I play blues there a lot. There are a lot of major pentatonic blues songs. Elmore James and Bo Diddley made their reputations on open major chord tunings that are at the heart of the root chord fret. One thing they did was to start a phrase on the b3rd sliding into the major 3rd and then hitting the 5th and moving on from there. And when the progression changes to the IV and V, you can use the A and B pedals to get those quicker than traveling up the neck 5 or 7 frets. But you have to be careful to make the changes before you pick, to avoid that country pedal mashin' sound.

That's right, David. Part of the problem at the root fret is that the A pedal bends the 5th tone to the 6th - a very un-bluesy, country sound. Three frets higher, the A pedal bends the b7 up to the root - the most common bend in blues and rock guitar.

This is true at all 3 of the positions that I described above. At the country (major 6) frets, the A pedal does something characteristic of country. At the blues (minor 7) frets, the A pedal does something characteristic of blues.

Keep in mind that tho I call it "root" position only two of the notes in my box diagram actually sit on the root fret (or key fret as bOb was calling it)...and those would be the roots on strings 4 and 8 (also whatever note is at string 5 root fret ). My refering to it as "root" position...refers to the general location on the neck rather than the actual root fret itself...if that makes any sense? the box diagram exists at that location but skirts the notes on root fret for the most part. maybe a more accuarte description would be "first position"? i dunno...my theory is poor

David:
I don't see where 3 frets up is a relative minor position with the A pedal. If you are at the 8th fret with no pedals, which is a C major chord position, then the relative minor chord, a 6m, is right there at the 8th fret with the A pedal down. If C major notes are at the 8th fret, then 3 frets up is not a relative minor of C, it is simply Cm or 1m with the A pedal down.

Don

Don Benoit wrote:David:
I don't see where 3 frets up is a relative minor position with the A pedal.... If C major notes are at the 8th fret, then 3 frets up is not a relative minor of C, it is simply Cm or 1m with the A pedal down.

Don, you are correct.

David was giving a general description of the A-pedal giving you the relative minor in the open position. I think he misspoke when he added the words "3 frets up" in his post.

Ben Jones wrote:Keep in mind that tho I call it "root" position only two of the notes in my box diagram actually sit on the root fret (or key fret as bOb was calling it)...and those would be the roots on strings 4 and 8 (also whatever note is at string 5 root fret ). My refering to it as "root" position...refers to the general location on the neck rather than the actual root fret itself...if that makes any sense? the box diagram exists at that location but skirts the notes on root fret for the most part. maybe a more accuarte description would be "first position"? i dunno...my theory is poor

Then just add the 8th, 9th and 10th string notes at the key fret to my diagram, and you have it.
<center>
</center> I think it would be most helpful if you posted your box diagram. I've already given this my best shot. This is what I consider to be my "root position" for blues.

The strings are repeated in octaves on a pedal steel. The key fret notes that I've placed on the high F# D E and B strings can be played an octave lower on the same fret, of course. That's just not what I would normally do because I don't have a bluesy use for the A pedal at that fret. Listen to the first 8 bars and the ending of "I Walk Downtown" on my MySpace page for good examples of this position.

Very good info for me bOb. What fuzz unit are you using?

edit: my diagram didnt work...sorry. Ill try again later.

Don Benoit wrote:Very good info for me bOb. What fuzz unit are you using?

None. It's the lead channel of my Mesa/Boogie Maverick amp.

Don, sorry for the confusion. I said "three frets up" referring to how Tucker described the A pedal minor pentatonic position. If you want to play the Am pentatonic position, you go three frets up from the A position at the 5th fret. That would put you at the 8th or C fret, and Am is the relative minor of C. So what I meant was that, instead of counting frets, if you know the minor pentatonic scale you want, you go to the relative major fret and hit the A pedal. For some of the common keys, I know the relative minor and majors, for others I have to count frets. It's just two ways of getting to the same place.

Anybody got any tips for blues pockets on C6th?

Here is a chart that I made showing minor pentatonic notes on the the E9th fretboard. You now see on fret 6 that the notes line up when pedal B is held down and pedal A is rocked in and out as Tucker posted previously. bOb, I am now looking at how the notes in your chart fit in.

Don, I like your chart and can clearly see my own "blues boxes" in there. You're missing the 3 on string 3 at fret -12 and +12.

For you cats that play alot in the two frets down from root position, I have a question. Are you playing with the B and C pedals to get guitar like bends? are you playing with the A and B pedals just as you would two frets up when you are playing major scale stuff? are you playing with no pedals at this position? or perhaps a combo of any/all three of the above?


I was able to get some nice stuff going with the C and B pedal in this position, and I also have a no pedals pocket there I use alot...just tryint o learn how others approach it. thanks

So bOb...looking at your chart and putting in the numbers, unless I am wrong, it looks like you are playing parts of both the major and minor pentatonic scale. Is that the case?

[quote="Scott Swartz"]On E9 when you lower strings 2 and 9 to C# its a pentatonic scale on all 10 strings... thats a pretty easy one.

Then combine the 2,9 lower with the E-D# and move up 5 frets and same result, all strings a pentatonic.

There are several more depending on your copedent.

At this point in the post, it is my understanding that the major pentatonic scale (5 notes) is used in country/pop licks and that the notes 1,2,3,5,6 which are derived from the 7 notes in the major scale and are used to jam over the band playing I, IV and V chord changes in any key. Example, the notes c, d, e, g and a will fit in when the band is changing from C to F to G chords and also the D chord if the 1 note is left out.

The minor pentatonic scale is used in blues/rock licks. The notes are 1, b3, 4, 5, b7 and the b5 note will also fit making it a 6 note blues scale. If the band is playing the same I, IV, V chord changes, then I can play the minor pentatonic notes for those chord changes which are common to the relative 6m, 2m and 3m chords and it will sound bluesy. Is this correct bOb, Tucker, David, Ben?

Don, my knowledge of theory is so poor I really dont know...thats why I dig the box diagrams. I dont gotta hurt my brain "cypherin'" as Jethro Bodean would say...

One thing Ive learned (someone correct me if I am wrong please?)is that in country, the soloing tends to follow the chord changes, whereas in rock and blues... the same scale at the same positon in the same key can be played over all the chord changes. So in blues and rock , I can autopilot my blues boxes and shred without knowing the song at all other than what key it is in . In country, I gotta know what the next chord is gonna be and therefor have to know the song (or have a chart)...bummer...this country stuff is harder than it looks!

basically i know squat. these guys will be able to clarify

That is correct. Don and Ben, you're both right.

Knowing the chord progression to a song is always a good idea. Knowing where the chords are on your guitar is also a good idea. You don't have to follow the chords, but if you know where they are you can make better choices about which notes to play.

There is a major pentatonic blues scale (1, 3, 4, 5, 7b) and a minor pentatonic blues scale (1, 3b, 4, 5, 7b). This has more to do with the chords that are played than the melody and scale runs. In major blues, the 3b is frequently used as a grace note or slur up to the major 3rd.

Some major pentatonic blues songs are Dust My Broom, Johnny B. Good, Memphis, Bo Diddley's beat, etc. If you play a minor third in the I chord, it will sound wrong, even though you can hit the 3b in the melody or in lead work. There is simply a lot of ambiguity in blues about the 3rd. A lot of gospel blues have a strong major 3rd component, it is very characteristic of praise music and marches.

Some minor blues songs are The Thrill is gone, Fever, Wang Dang Doodle, Honey Bee, and many of Robert Cray's songs. The minor 3rd is clearly required in the I chord, and the major 3rd of the tonic probably wont be heard anywhere in the song. But the IV and V7 chords will have major 3rds, likewise the IIIb and VIIb.

It is true that in both major and minor pentatonic blues, in lead work the pentatonic scale can be played over all the chord changes, even though the IV and V chords use all the diatonic scale notes. However, this is not invariable, and you can also hear some blues singers and lead players using not only the whole diatonic scale, but much or all of the chromatic scale. This is especially true as you get into blues-based jazz.

To avoid the problem of the 3rd, many blues, especially old Mississippi Delta and Hill Country blues, are played in a modal style, with no 3rd in the chords. Fred McDowell played whole songs on a I power chord (1, 5, 1). His melody and lead work might contain both the major and minor 3rd, or neither. John Lee Hooker did the same in his boogie songs.

The point is, all the so-called blues rules are just guidelines. It is worthwhile to try them to see how they sound, and to learn to use them when you want them. But slavishly sticking to them at all times is one thing that makes the blues of many novices sound so similar and generic. Blues masters build on the rules, but give things their own twist to develop their own styles.

david...I cannot even understand the rules let alone be a slave to them. Im never gonna be into the theory (tho I am tryin to pick a bit up here and there as I DO recognize its value). In my 6 string rock solos I probably use every note on the fretboard and then some (or sometimes just a couple notes..whatever). the blues boxes I seek knowledge of on psg, and as I use them on 6 atring, are more for a resting spot, a familiar place, something I dont even have to think about, somehwere to branch off from...they are not like a router jig that only allows me to touch certain areas of the fretboard. People who decry the use of the so called blues boxes often do so by talking about micro-tones and how the blues box doesnt really represent "the blues"...but for me at least, they are misconstruing how they are used and the degree of their usefulness.
Im not a deep thinker, but I like to think I am deep player. My head is nevr gonna be think about scales or pentawhatsits..but my hands and heart are gonna be moving and speaking. On guitar I can go anywhere and do anything I desire...on psg my wings are clipped by my lack of experience and knowledge. This will come with time I know

Here's Joe Wright shredding and clowning on a blues-rock number on his S12 E9/B6 universal: click here.

In addition to the shredding, you can hear him comping some power chords on the low strings. Notice how much he gets while staying on a single fret. This song is in A, and he spends a lot of time at the beginning on the 17th fret. At 1:29 he comes in on the IV chord at fret 12 and uses the A and B pedals to do a IV, VIIb comp; then at 1:32 on the I change he drops down to fret 5 and uses the same pedals to do a I, IV comp. Around 2:15 he does some I, VIIb power chord comping by alternating between frets 5 and 3 (no pedals), then does a little stuff in that pocket, then on the IV change he goes up to the 10th fret and does some IV, IIIb comping between the 10th and 8th frets, then back to I, VIIb comping. Around 2:50 he starts using the B6 mode for a jazzier style.

You can see why somebody like Joe likes a universal. You can also get similar low string power chords with 12-string extended E9 and C6. But you can't get those on 10-string E9 without altering the low strings. But of course, you can get all the high single-note picking he does.