Distortion, Overdrive, Whatever........for Steel

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Clean boost pedals are extremely useful - yes, your volume pedal can be used that way, but when you want an *overall* signal boost AND still have control over the sound with your volume pedal, a boost pedal is the ticket.

I use several different ones, depending on my particular setup and what's being played; a Klon Centaur, an MXR Micro amp, a ZVex 2-in-1 (actually TWO boost pedals in one box) or the boost function in my H&K Replex.

The Klon is by far the best - with a good tube amp running fairly hot, in the clean setting it kicks up your volume for solos without significant tonal change - it just gives you more of what you already have. IF you have your amp right on the edge of distortion, any of the clean-boosts will then push the amp into overdrive; and the Klon and 2-in-1 both can be used as traditional overdrives, pushing the amp over AND adding a little "dirt" of their own. The Klon has a richer, more natural sound; the MXR adds a hair of treble; the 2-in-1 has a frightening amount of gain (which can be REALLY fun!!) and the boost in the Replex is tube based,lower in gain than the others but very smooth sounding.

I just find it much easier to kick in some boost for solos when I need it and not have to "hold back" a volume pedal *except* when soloing.
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No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional

David Doggett · Posted 12 Jun 2008 9:13 pm

OKAY, LET'S DISCUSS PICK SENSITIVE DISTORTION.

Several of you guys are using these things completely differently than what I aim for. I use the SD Twin Tube to duplicate the situation of playing regular guitar (with or without a volume pedal) into a tube amp on the verge of overdrive, where you can pick easily for a clean tone, and pick harder to get some grit. Guitarists call it PICK SENSITIVITY, and it is considered a very desirable thing. I love to have that control in my hands. It is not at all the same as trying to control distortion with your foot, which I find much clumsier.

When the SDTT is put between the pickup and volume pedal, it is quite easy to find the gain setting that gives pick sensitivity. It probably varies with the pickup strength, but for mine it is with the gain near the straight up position (around 5-6 on a scale of 1-10). Most boxes I have tried cannot be used this way. Many just sound tinny before the volume pedal. Also, most are simply not pick sensitive - whatever distortion sound you dial in from the box itself is simply always on (if the stomp is on). The SDTT does pick sensitivity beautifully, I guess mainly because it is in reality a tube preamp. I would imagine you can do this with any tube preamp that has a good overdrive type distortion.

I don't want the distortion box to have any effect on my volume as it is stomped on or off. So I find the box volume setting that is neutral in this respect, which is around 10:00 o'clock (3-4 on a scale of 1-10). My overall volume is then guided solely by my foot on the VP, as usual. Since I normally attack notes on steel with the VP less than half on, I have lots of VP room to get any volume boost I need for solos, the same as when playing clean without the box. This seems to be the way most steelers use their volume pedal, although some, like Jim Sliff, seem to use a volume pedal very differently.

I feel I have more versatility with the distortion unit set for pick sensitivity and used in front of the VP, because from note to note I can play clean or dirty with my hands, and with my foot can have either type tone at any volume level. The dirtiness of the tone is completely independent of the volume.

In this situation I have no need for a dedicated clean boost device. I have both clean boost or dirty boost with the balance I strike between my hands on the strings and my foot on the VP. Or I can just stomp the box off, and have the usual clean boost with the volume pedal that we always have playing steel through a clean amp with a volume pedal (if you attack notes with the volume pedal backed off in the typical steeler way that Jim Sliff objects to).

This is simple for me. The distortion is always controlled with my hands; and the volume is always controlled with my foot, whether playing clean or dirty.

For me, this actually works better than having the amp on the verge of distortion, able to be overdriven with my foot on the VP. This changes the volume and the distortion together, not something I always want. And it requires a very precise balancing of the OD device output (or the amp's preamp gain) and the amp's volume output, in order to get the right distortion at the right volume level for the room. And that balance is different in every room - even different in the same room as the number of people changes - and must change with the band's dynamic changes in volume (which can change from phrase to phrase, as well as from song to song, and from the beginning of the evening to the end of the evening).

But even if you ignore this changing volume level problem, I just don't like trying to clumsily control my distortion with my VP foot, and much prefer to control it with my hands. But surprisingly to me, this seems to be a minority preference here.

So let me ask this question. DO ANY OF YOU WANT PICK SENSITIVITY? AND IF SO, HOW DO YOU GET THAT ON PEDAL STEEL? I suppose, if you are going to use a boost device and or the VP to drive a downstream box or the amp to distortion, you could find the precise volume at which the box or amp is on the verge of distortion, and hold that volume with the VP, and as long as that volume was held precisely, you should get some pick sensitivity. But it would only be at that one precise volume level. In different rooms, or as the people in the room change, or as the band's volume dynamics change, you would no longer be at the right volume level, and would have to readjust everything. I have tried that, and it drives me nuts having to constantly readjust everything.

With my method (the distortion box in front of the VP), once you have found the pick sensitive spot on the box's gain control that works with your pickup, something you can do alone at home, you're basically set forever - for all rooms, amps, and volume levels. Of course you will always have to adjust the volume with your VP, but steelers do that all the time anyway. It's very natural for me.

If you just want to use a fuzz-like effect, that is not pick sensitive, but is either in or out, that is a completely different situation. There are hundreds of boxes for that sort of thing. I can get that with the SDTT by setting one channel to be pick sensitive (I prefer the Rhythm Channel for that), and on the other channel set the gain past the pick sensitive point, so it is constant distortion anytime you switch to that channel.

But if all you want is a boost device, the SDTT would seem to be overkill for that. There must be many much less expensive boost devices that would get the job done fine. However, it does seem that you could dedicate one of the SDTT channels to only boost, by setting that channel's volume high and its gain low. This would probably work either before or after the VP.

One thing I have noticed is that most, possibly all, fuzz/distortion/overdrive devices have a very different tone depending on which side of the volume pedal they are on. So tone settings between the two positions are not necessarily comparable.
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Sorry for the long post. But I am pulling a Jim Sliff here in comparing guitarists to steelers. Rock and blues guitarists over the years have spent countless hours and dollars developing desirable and controllable distortion, trying hundreds of stomp boxes and vintage and boutique tube amps. Many top performers build their reputations as much on their (distortion) tone as on their licks. It is not yet a science, but it is a considerable part of their artistry. By comparison, steelers are in their infancy in terms of distortion tone. The few who actually want some distortion sometimes, will just slap any of a handful of common distortion units after their volume pedal, adjust it crudely for some very stereotypical (and usually very cheesy) fuzz/distortion, almost always the simple on or off type of distortion, and just stomp it on occasionally for some very banal (for want of another word) distortion. But are we all really happy with that? I think not. I think it bears some extended discussion, at least for those who want to enter the realm of really desirable and controllable distortion.

It is a very different problem for steelers. Unless you are going to use multiple amps (which many top guitarists do), we are stuck with a powerful clean amp with little or no usable distortion at any volume, much less at the desirable volume. Therefore, we are going to have to get all of our distortion with a separate unit (a stomp box or a preamp). So that unit, and where it is placed in the chain, become all important.

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

Carl Morris · From: Boulder, Colorado, USA

David D,

I suspect you would really like the capabilities of the CyberTwin for dealing with the issues you're describing. You can set it up with some compression, right at the edge of distortion depending on picking, exactly as you describe, and then configure a midi or analog expression pedal to control the volume after the distortion to get what you're looking for. Whether that would ever be a suitable way for a steel player to control volume compared to a traditional inline volume pedal is unknown to me...I'm just a noob Smile

.

P.S. I liked your JI post and am quite interested to hear the answers.
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Carl Morris
http://cdmorris.com/music/

Twayn Williams · From: Portland, OR

I'm with David Doggett on this. Distortion units go BEFORE the volume pedal, not after! If you want to control the distortion quality/level then use a volume pot on your guitar!!! (it's one of my pet peeves that modern PSG's don't have volume/tone controls) One of my favorite 6-string tricks is to use a fairly heavy distortion and pull back on the volume pot on the guitar. This changes not only the amount of distortion you have, but it's quality as well, usually thickening up the tone. This trick works differently with Fuzz Face style fuzzes, where backing off the volume pot will actually brighten the tone to an almost piezo-like quality. This is called "clean-up" in 6-string parlance.

I find most boutique overdrives have pretty good pick sensitivity, but nothing beats the ZVex Box of Rock in my experience!
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Primitive Utility Steel

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

To answer your question the only way I know how, David, sometimes I want pick-sensitive distortion, and other times I want it more slammed. To me, the issue is setting the nominal point on the nonlinear curve. Then I use a volume control (guitar) or volume pedal (either guitar or steel) to move up and down around that nominal point. This is a pretty standard guitar player's technique to control distortion.

To get a range from clean to pick-sensitive distortion to more slammed distortion on steel (and sometimes on guitar), I put the nonlinear - usually tube - device after the volume pedal. For example, for about half to two-thirds of the volume pedal travel, I have changes in volume going from clean to mild, pick-sensitive distortion. But then when I slam the volume pedal, I don't get much volume change, but drive it further into overdrive. This mimics my guitar style, where I have always either used the volume control or a volume pedal to clean things up at lower settings and pushed harder at hotter settings. Most of my life, I have used vintage tube guitar amps for that. What I like about that SDTTC is that it really reacts a lot like my old amps, and can even get a decent distorted sound running into a solid-state steel amp. It can also be set up to gooses up my guitar amps nicely without getting real ratty.

Now, I sometimes set the nominal position on the nonlinear curve differently. Sometimes I want more clean headroom with a gradual shift into mild, pick-sensitive distortion, and other times I want it to be more a switch between cleaner and distorted. Again, this is the way I've always approached it on guitar.

If I always wanted the same level of distortion sensitivity, independent of volume, I'd do it your way - nonlinear device before volume pedal. But I have never wanted that. I have generally found that I want more growl as it gets louder and to clean up a bit as it gets softer. In general, the people I work with tend not to want distorted guitar over the vocal. It just takes up too much harmonic space in the kind of stuff I'm into.

Of course, on steel, I play a lot of stuff completely clean. That's why I talked about setting up the Duncan pedal for clean boost on the Rhythm channel and distorted on Lead. I agree with Jim that sometimes I just need more overall volume for a clean solo, beyond what I can get using just the volume pedal.

Twayn Williams · From: Portland, OR

Let me qualify:

When using a clean amp and getting all of your distortion from pedals, the volume pedal is most effectively placed AFTER the distortion. This way the volume pedal still acts as a volume pedal, not a distortion control device.

However, as has been said, to each his own, and there really is no wrong or right way to do it, just the way you prefer!
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Primitive Utility Steel

Cliff Kane · From: the late great golden state

Maybe a good approach would be to place a Matchbox before the distortion device and then go into the volue pedal. The Matchbox has a volume knob that could drive the distortion, and then the volume pedal can adjust the distorted volume.

James Mayer · Posted 13 Jun 2008 5:34 pm

John Groover McDuffie · From: LA California, USA

For warm bluesy fat overdrive I use a Voodoo Lab Sparkle Drive - it's a "tube screamer" type overdrive which allows blending clean sound in with the overdrive, and I find it works great for the PSG. I place it after my volume pedal, before my delay pedal.
For psychedelic fuzz I was using a MXR distortion+, placed between my Matchbox and the volume pedal. I recently got a cool distortion pedal called Hizumi by Boot-Leg, a Japanese "boutique" pedal maker, and am currently using it in place of the MXR.

Dan Tyack · From: Olympia, WA USA

In the question of 'picking sensitive' overdrive versus using a volume pedal, I would probably put the volume pedal after the overdrive pedal, if my pedal steels had what every guitar has: a volume knob. Using the volume knob is pretty common among guitar players (pretty much every guitar player magazine amp review I've ever read talks about what happens when you 'back off the volume'). I don't have a volume knob, so I use the volume pedal for this.

I personally don't like to switch on and off a box for solos, and instead I just use my volume control to control the amount of drive. I'm used to getting 'overdrive' from the amp, and so when I use a pedal, I tend to use it in the same way (it's the last thing before hitting the amp itself). For rhythm parts or backup, I back off the volume pedal, for solos, I bring up the signal with the volume pedal.

As a personal thing, I don't like the sound of my steels directly hitting an overdrive pedal, especially with mt Lawrence 705 pickups. They are just too hot, and even with the 'drive' backed way off, it's too distorted for rhythm playing.

As with everything, this is all YMMV and IMHO. It all depends on how you play, the equipment you use, and what you are used too.

David Doggett · Posted 14 Jun 2008 12:26 pm

Dan, I guess we are getting the same thing different ways. I also don't like the sound of my steel (12-string Truetone pup 18,500K) hitting most guitar stomp boxes directly. Which is why they are mostly out the window. The SDTT is different, I guess because I am using it as a preamp. It really is like a three chord hookup on a Peavey amp, with the volume pedal after the preamp. I guess I don't miss the volume knob on my steel because I keep the SDTT right next to me and can easily adjust both its volume, gain, and tone knobs. If it is on the floor, I can still easily reach it, because I am sitting down. But my preferred setup is to have my amp head right next to me, with the SDTT sitting on top of it, almost at steel level.

It also probably matters that my amps, Fender Silver-faces of various sizes, have little or no distortion (they are set up cold and clean to the top). Distorting amps just don't work for me. For a purely blues gig, a medium powered amp with good distortion would work. But, even with my blues group, there are always some songs where I want a pure steel sound with unlimited clean headroom and clean volume pedal sustain, and a medium powered guitar amp just wont work for that for me, no matter how great its distortion tone is.

Even though it works as a preamp, the SDTT doesn't have typical preamp-only distortion. Maybe because it uses two tubes, to me is gets distortion that is like an amp with both the preamp and power sections driven and blooming.

James, the way I use the SDTT for steel, its sustain is irrelevant to me. Guitars get amp sustain by overdrive, and the sustain is locked in with the overdrive distortion. But like most steelers, I get sustain with the volume pedal. That way it can be completely clean sustain, if there is no distortion unit turned on before the VP, and if the amp is clean. If I want sustained distortion, I cut in the distortion unit in front of the VP, and, regardless of whatever sustain the unit gives or not, I again get all the sustain I want from the VP. The whole point of my setup is that volume and sustain are controlled by the VP, and are completely independent of tone, whether distorted or clean.

Karlis Abolins · From: (near) Seattle, WA, USA

Blackstar HT Dual

After following this thread, I am interested in trying the twin tube classic from Seymour Duncan. I went into my local GC but they didn't have any in stock. The salesman pointed me toward a Blackstar HT Dual. I tried to find something other than sales information (like sound examples) but had little luck. Anyone tried this one?

Karlis

Dan Tyack · From: Olympia, WA USA

Karl, I don't think that Duncan sells that pedal any more. I suppose it could be because the pedal used NOS (new old stock) miniature tubes from the 60s and their stock ran out.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

To my knowledge, the Duncan Twin Tube pedal is still available - it may be that they just don't have them at the store. I just looked online - zzounds, american music supply, and musicians friend all list them as in-stock, ready to ship. I actually got a blem at AMS for $180 several months back. Since AMS is in New Jersey, there was no shipping and no tax. Best $180 I ever spent on a pedal, to my tastes.

Not familiar with the Blackstar HT Dual. I do note that there is a Harmony Central review page on this. One reviewer posted a reply from Blackstar on the use of solid-state devices in the "all-tube" pedal, as follows:

Twayn Williams · From: Portland, OR

David Doggett · Posted 14 Aug 2008 7:49 pm

Twayne, are your assessments of the various stomp boxes based on regular guitar or steel? It makes a huge difference. For whatever reason, lots of boxes sound great for guitar, but not for steel. So I find guitar players' assessments of boxes meaningless for my purposes (I play steel only, no electric guitar).

Twayn Williams · From: Portland, OR

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Karlis Abolins · From: (near) Seattle, WA, USA

Dan,

I think you may be right about availability of the twin tube. I placed an order with Sweetwater. Their web site said there was limited availabilty due to previous commitments but they would try their best to accomodate orders. I will know more later. If it turns out that I can't get a twin tube, I may have to look at some of the other pedals mentioned here.

Karlis

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I haven't talked to them, but as I said, the AMS, zzounds, and MF websites all showed them in-stock and ready to ship last night.

I have honestly thought about getting a spare if these truly have been discontinued. But right now, there's still an active Duncan product page on these: http://www.seymourduncan.com/products/effects-pedals/sfx03_twin_tube/

David Doggett · Posted 15 Aug 2008 10:13 am

Twayn Williams · From: Portland, OR

Chip Fossa · From: Monson, MA, USA (deceased)

Just looked up the Seymour Duncan Twin Tube on Musicians Friend, just to get some "reviews".

All were pretty positive reviews with one exception.

The tubes are basically irreplaceable, ie.Hard to get at, and/or you can't buy them.

Some reviewers guessed you may wind up having to send the unit back to Seymour Duncan for tube replacement.

I'm interested in this preamp; but I'm gathering info, and, so, here is some more about it.

Karlis Abolins · From: (near) Seattle, WA, USA

Update on availability of the twin tube.

I placed an order with Sweetwater. Their web site said they had limited units but would try to make the order. I didn't hear from them for several days. I finally called them and found out they had two units but both were in repair. I told my rep to cancel the order and I would look elsewhere. A couple of days later my rep called and told me that they had gotten some more in. I am now waiting for one to show up on my doorstep.

Karlis

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