The Steel Guitar Forum

I agree with Tony, the song is the essence. We should add what we can without detracting from what the singer's doing. But, that can easily be taken too far. I've been hearing so much "laying out", soft padding, and light background stuff lately that I really long for some kick-ass, in-your-face steel stuff. Don't you? Have we forgotten Weldon's "I'll Come Runnin'"? Brumley's "Hello Trouble"? Lloyd's "Jukebox Charlie"? Charleton's "Do What You Do, Do Well"? Hal's "Don't Come Home 'a Drinkin'"? Chalker's "Red Door"? Buddy's "Night Life"? The steel "made" songs when it was in your face, when it was up-front in the mix, when it grabbed your attention immediately!

I get the impression that most here seem to believe that you only get to show off on "Rocky Top" or Highway 40 Blues", and the rest of the night it's "ho-hum, time for a muted chord and a harmonic or two". No wonder they want to put us in the back line, or somewhere in the wings!

Learn to be "tastefully aggressive". Sure, have style and class, but don't forget to bark some, when you get the chance. IMHO, if it's hard to notice what you're doing, if you're not making a profound difference in the sound, they really have no incentive to keep you in the band.

I think this "laying out" stuff has migrated from being just a studio thing to being "bandstand typical", and that ain't helping us to get noticed.

Donny, I wholeheartedly agree! You've put it very well! I'm surprised that so many posters here have such a pedestrian approach to playing. I love the classic playing styles, and the modern playing styles, of so many great players, but, I've worked hard to learn, and I play the way that I play. I don't ever step on anyone else, but I will play what I feel in the moment. It's different, moment by moment. Otherwise, I think I'd lose interest altogether!

As usual, Donny nails it.

Sure, the melody is important...but on the other hand there's nothing mre boring than hearing a band take instrumental breaks that are all strictly the melody.

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The point is, play the melody, but make it *yours* - a few little twist and turns while staying in the framework makes it recognizable yet still original.

I like playing a fairly strait...but with a few wrinkles - on a first verse or chorus, then take a second that goes "outside". That usually grabs the audience really well, especially if toward the end f the outside portion you return to just a few notes...a portion of a bar...of the strait melody.

Sometimes I'll reverse it and go for "stun" first, then play sweet the second time around. Depending on the crowd, that can often get an even better reaction.

Depending on the crowd, that can often get an even better reaction.

Bingo. Know your audience. I'm with Donny too.

Of course the song and melody matter if you're playing "regular" Western-culture-based music. But even there, a hot solo or well-turned phrase or lick can make a song.

There are no absolute rules. Just good judgement and good taste, which are completely impossible to get universal agreement on - unless you live and work in a homogeneous culture for which clear-cut standards are already agreed upon. That's not my world - I play with and for lots of different types of people. Which takes me back to my original point - know your audience.

But how does one "know your audience". Of course, if you play to the same homogeneous audience every time, that's easy. But what if you frequently play to different types of audiences? When I'm on unfamiliar ground, I try to read an audience, try some (possibly different) things, sense the reaction, finally learn what works, and go for it.

I know many people think anything that is not "regular" Western-culture-based music is just "noise", which is probably how we get into such discussions. But I think it should be understood that there are a lot of valid ways to approach music that connects with people - after all, isn't that the point?

Thanx guys,
I've enjoyed all the comments, specially your kind words Buddy (Willis Vanderberg). We'll have to get together for a jam when I get back to Mich.
I didn't mean to tell anyone how to play. I just expressed what I like to hear and how I like to play.
I think about Ricky Scaggs who plays all of Bill Monroes stuff but I've never heard him change a note. I presume it is out of respect for Mr. Monroe.

Started with no talent--still have most of it.

JJ

Well, if we're going to use Ricky Skaggs and Bill Monroe as an example...

It seems to me that on almost any (non instrumental) Bill Monroe tune, he sings the melody of the song and then the solos (including his own) are anything but "just the melody"; sometimes they're paraphrases of the melody or variations, but very often it will be more like a string of "hot licks". Hardly a new "trend" in country music is it?

Ricky Skaggs' hit version of "Uncle Pen" keeps a lot of the flavor of Monroe's original while adding steel, electric guitar, bass and drums (can't say he didn't "change a note"!) and I'd say most of the solos are "hot licks". And while Bruce Bouton's great steel solo is definitely "hot", you can tell he has the melody of that part of the song in mind too, to me a great example of incorporating the flavor of a tune into a solo while bringing something new to it at the same time.

And it was both a great record from a musicians standpoint AND a big hit! That doesn't happen very often...


On the original topic; there's been lots of great posts already. I'll just add that while I think it's important to be able to play the melody of a tune, and be able to incorporate bits of it (if appropriate) in fills or solos, in my experience it's rarely the steel players role in a working situation to actually play the melody on a gig or session. Just my two cents...

Most recording steel guitarists are asked to create their own melody for solos instead of copying the exact melody of the song.

For examples listen to:

Listen to A few of John Hughey's most memorable solos such as "Look At Us", "Just Destroyed The World" and "Lost In The Feeling".

Mooney's "Bottle Let Me Down", "Swinging Doors", "Above And Beyond", and "Your For Me"

Weldon Myrick's "I'll Come Running", "Then and Only Then" and countless others.

Dugmore's "Blue Bayou"


PF

I like the solos or fills that are not exactly like the melody , but similar and along the same theme as the melody. It's the harmonies on the steel that make it sound cool. The melody alone can sound pretty nice on the steel too. I think it's obvious when the solo is so far off that you wouldn't know it belonged to the song.

I forgot to say except with certain types of songs, a players approach becomes more a part of the overall musical arrangement when they create their own intro's and solo's instead of copying the melody.

Reggie Young's Guitar work on "Drift Away" and Billy Swan's "I can Help" are perfect examples. The intro to "Proud Mary" is another. Listen to Walsh on the Eagles "Best Of My Love".

Its all about personal taste.

PF

I think John Hughey blew everyones mind when he did the turnaround on the slow tune, "Look At Us" sung by Vince Gill. It doesn't follow the exact melody, yet it sounded great, and could actually be used in several slow songs, although we all associate it with "Look At Us". I think it is good to follow the melody at times, and at times to experiment, and stray from the melody on slow or fast songs as most of you have stated. Play what you like to play. This sets you apart from everyone else, thus you sound different from everyone else. I enjoy listening to all musicians. No 2 people play alike, and I like variety.

Tastefully aggressive

That's great!!

Reference Pete Finney's post about Ricky Skaggs. Ricky plays both bluegrass and country excepionally well and I enjoy both. Escpecially Boutons steel work. But I was referring only to him doing Monroes songs--NOT his 'country' songs.

JJ

Started with no talent--still have most of it.

Well... "Uncle Pen" IS a Monroe song, is it not??? And still a bluegrass standard after many decades even if it WAS also a big hit on country radio...

So I guess I'm not sure what distinction you're making. Ricky may be recording pretty much strictly on the bluegrass side now but for years he blurred the distinctions very nicely, including having a big "electrified" country hit with an old Bill Monroe classic.

Not that this has much to do with the original topic, but I'd say that's been covered pretty well at this point...

I'd get pretty bored listening to solos that strictly follow the melody. Thankfully, nobody does it, so I'm not sure why these conversations keep popping up. But...
The solos and turnarounds that really grab me are the ones that use some figure or motif from the song, and expand on it within the structure. Some are masterpieces. As an example, I might name Buddy Emmons' handling of George Strait's "I Cross My Heart". Deeply thematic, yet not conforming strictly to the melody... and gorgeous.
-John

When I player the sole on " Your Cheating Heart'I would play the the melody of " Please Release Me If your're playing in a cover band, play close to cover. About playing the melody lines, some take more work to learn,but there are some sole parts that don't follow melody lines that are just as difficuit as the melody. This is true with alot of the new country,I know what melody you going to say .

May I inject that the great Doug Jernigan does it both ways. We all respect Doug and his talent and accomplishments on steel guitar.
His personal theory is;
If you play the straight melody at the beginning and at the end, then you can get away with anything you want to do in the middle.

Personally, as a singer, bass player, and dobro player, I agree with a previous post. If I had to sing or play the straight melody all the time in every song, I would be bored and so would my audience. C'mon guys! Show some creativity! That's what music is all about, anyhow! Right?

the argument to me is NOT that people should or should not play melody, thats a choice the musician has.

If you CAN'T play melody and can only noodle around, then you don't really have much choice in the matter.

I see this topic as being more about ability rather than creativity.

How does a player play around the melody if they can't actually play the melody ?

I am reading all these "be creative" comments, I have played with countless musicians, as we all probably have, that were supposedly creative but when it came to playing simple melody lines, could not.

just my take

I completely agree with Tony, so many players are "All the gear and no idea" Just a disjointed collection of runs and licks that have been practiced to death, and used by everyone else ad infinitum.

I'm in perfect agreement with Msrs. Hinson and Franklin on this one.
Yes, you need the tools to play "melody" lines to fulfill your part as an instrumentalist, but not just the melody... I really wonder what kind of band a guy plays in if they're really ok with him "playing just the melody" on evey song.

One of the few recordings I can think of where the steel break stays super close to the melody is Lloyd Green's gorgeous take on Ricky Skagg's "You've Got A Lover", and he certainly embellishes some. As Paul notes, that's an exception rather than the rule in recording. (Instrumentals are another matter, of course, but even then, variation is the spice... it was Buddy E's sweet twists and turns on "Wichita Lineman" on the Suite Steel LP that made me want to play).

I've played on more that a thousand sessions over the years, and I always, especially with new clients, run through a few approaches to a tune to ask which direction is preferred. I've never had a producer or artist ask me to "just play the melody". Never.

I see this topic as being more about ability rather than creativity.

I'm gonna take this rare chance to disagree with Tony on that point. I don't recall one poster here who implied, much less said, that it's not important to know how to play melodies, or even "the" melody. I think the vast majority of us agree that this is important. I agree with the original poster's assertion that just cramming as many hot licks into every tune as possible isn't a good idea. I even agree that I've heard plenty of players do this - not just on steel, but on any instrument imaginable. I think we can move on from that part of the discussion.

But here is what I see as the crux of what the original poster wrote:

I feel the composer chose that tune because he felt it best fit the lyrics. I try to respect the writers work by playing the tune as written with as much accuracy, feeling, and tone quality as am capable of. If you don't care for the tune, don't play the song or write your own. WHADAYATHINK?

I think there is an implied "always playing the tune as written ...". Maybe not - but that's what I take from this and some of the responses, which seem to say something like "Stick to the melody, don't desecrate Bill Monroe (or insert your favorite country writer) by playing something he or she didn't write."

I believe all this is strictly a matter of taste. I think it's reasonable that some people prefer to just hear the melody as written (or played on a classic recording), and others prefer to hear something improvised over the song, at least in places. I honestly doubt that we'll get any more universal agreement here than in the argument about "Which is the best style of music - country, rock, jazz, blues, folk, soul, hip-hop, classical, atonal, or whatever?"

This is why I think it's so critical to read the audience - which I agree often is the band one is working with - and really work with them. I have played with people who expect me to strictly adhere to a particular melodic line, signature solo, or lick. Then others would laugh at me if I did that.

There's another relevant point - do we really believe that the original writer wrote every single note in a particular country, blues, rock, or other classic popular music recording? It's simply not true - as has been reiterated many times, musicians often improvised over a tune and that becomes a critical part of "the song" in many peoples' minds.

Most of the music we're talking about here is not the Boston Symphony playing Mozart - not everything has been codified in stone for centuries - it's still evolving. Jeez, even in classical, there is some room for interpretation of the composer's intent, feel, and so on. I will agree that - if you go to hear several mainstream orchestras play Mozart or Bach - any differences will be subtle. But I don't think that's the game most of us are engaged in - at least I'm not.

I totally agree with you Dave.

I guess I have a hard time understanding the guys who say playing the tune is boring. There are enough variety of songs and melodies that you could easily play a four hour gig, and never have to repeat the same melody.

One of the worst experiences of my life was suffering thru Stevie Wonder doing the Star Spangled Banner. I don't think he used any of the original notes in the song. Francis Scott Key probably did a double back flip in his grave.

With that---I rest my case.

Started with no talent---still have most of it.

JJ