The Steel Guitar Forum

Tony said

Calvin, your intent to help so called newbies is to be commended but the problem I see is that you are lumping them all into the same category, which is a mistake.

A NEW Player that has a background playing perhaps Guitar or Piano and understands some basic principles of music will advance quickly, they approach a new Instrument with a totally different outlook, they look to apply what they already know to the new Instrument


Tony
you are right. it is a mistake to lump them all together

Calvin, listen up buddy.

Your frustrations of not learning at your intended speed must be catching up with you.

In the sense of the word, I am also a newbie.

From what I have read of Don's contributions on here, he should be treated with a bit more respect than what you have been displaying lately.
It was easy, from just one question to Don that he is a pro. His head is geared towards music, he has all the theory that you and I need, in his head. To challenge a musician of that caliber and to maybe write in a less than respectful way, will not only serve to discourage the pros from helping us newbies, but we might even find ourselves excluded from further teaching by those people.

Please, go over your and Don's posts and see the tone you have used with Don. Learn from those slips and make amends accordingly.

This is suggested in the spirit of comradeship and good will on this forum.

respectfully,
Bent

Brent

Don thinks everyone is a moron except him
and like's to make every one think he wrote the book on music

also, my own playing has nothing to
do with this thread

I have had some success at getting some people on the first rung of the ladder. Most rank beginners want to know something, anything, to make them have confidence that they might be able to make an
acceptable sound on this instrument. The first thing
I show them is the basic string 8, string six and pedal, string five and pedal. Thats the instantly
recognizable steel hook. Their eyes light up! They
are doing something they identify as steel guitar music.

THEN, I explain WHY it works. If you can get someone
doing something to entertain themselves right off the bat, their interest will be maintained. Show
them a few licks and how to string them together,
then tell them WHY.

I don't mean to diminish the importance of theory
and totally respect a teacher that can make it work
coming from the formal music approach, but I feel
that if theory is learned in an applied manner as an
adjunct, and as part of the "amuse myself", it will
stick as well if not better than with a rigid
discipline that may overwhelm some people.

One of the earliest practice regimens I would
recommend is to practice hitting the string you intend to hit. Until you can do that effortlessly, you won't be able to apply any theory OR amuse yourself.

Clyde

that is exackly what this thread was intended to do

Dean I wanted to respond to your post as well,

Johnny Cash wrote the songs, and you can do that with little or no knowledge of music. The singer/songwriter I have played with for the past 2 years has no Idea what she is playing. Her songs sound great. My job is to figure out how to accompany her. Since she is musically illiterate I have to interpret what she is playing, so does the bass player, and the lead guitarist. If I didnt have a basic understanding of theory this would be very hard to do. She gets very impatient if you cant get a part down in 2 or 3 practices, and if you cant do it she'll fire you and find someone whos "easier to work with". No one wants to hear a steel player noodle until they find the right notes. Thats the lead guitarist's job.

I can guaranty you the pro steel players who know theory far out weigh those who dont. Look at the courses many of them offer. Look at the tunings many have, that all comes from a knowledge of how their music works (theory).

As a beginning musician my hardest thing to learn was how to tell where the right notes are. How did it click? learning scales, keys, and chord structure from books, and the advice of senior musicians. I am a newbie to steel, but I have an extensive musical background from trumpet and guitar (been playing guitar since I was 3). I learned basic steel quick because I already understood the principles. I knew to look for the 1 4 and 5 chord patterns. I found multiple locations for these chords. I asked other steel players questions till they started avoiding me. I would lurk after shows and when the steel player was packing up I would ask about a lick they played. They all have spoke to me in the language of "that was the 4 chord with the a/f" or " was pinching the 5 with the lever". And I knew exactly what they where talking about.

Right now I am learning to speed pick cleanly, it is killing me. I hate the drills, I have smashed a perfectly good pair of finger picks with a hammer, and ripped the 2nd string of my guitar because I kept hitting it by mistake. I cuss, yell, and I scare the cat so bad it hides whenever I start practicing now, but I know I have to do these unpleasant drills till it clicks. I can assure you I hate music theory more than anyone. I hate the drills more than anyone. It either bores me, confuses me or makes me feel angry or stupid because something is not sinking in. Sometimes I think Im to stupid to play the steel and want to sell it. I also know that when it clicks it is all worth it. Nothing satisfies me more in life than adding something beautiful to a good song, and I will do whatever it takes to do that.

I learned that perseverance will eventually win out over intelligence. You set your goals high and if you fall short your still further ahead than when you started. If you are confused then that is good, because now you are set up to learn. You cant learn something you dont know anything about already. So you have to slowly build up a data base in your head.
Sooner or later you see the pattern and the confusion goes away. Now you may be confused over the number system, but since you have a confused concept of it you are set up for it to someday click. When it does it will be permanently embedded in your brain because you spent so much time trying to figure it out.

A boxer learns all the punches and combos for months before they get into the ring. What happens when you get in the ring? nothing works, your confused frustrated, everything your coach tells you causes you to get hit more. You end up dizzy, bloody and beaten, but the next fight is a little better. the next better still, and after awhile you realize all the things your coach told you are true, you just have to work through the confusion. If you get into a ring with a trained boxer, and you are untrained because you refuse to acknowledge the benefits of training you have a long tough road ahead of you.

Theory and drills are the training, playing is the boxing

and then after all that you've still got to play things people like. And that lies in the talent area. If you don't have good taste you cannot be helped.

summary: accompanying musicians need to know what the songwriter is doing so they can accompany them. The songwriters have the freedom to do whatever they want, with out any knowledge of theory. you do not.


Calvin you alway make write the longest posts

I have to agree with you in many respects! The only course out of the last couple of hundred dollars I've spent really has been in the most part a real waste of money. In time those may be helpful but really not as a beginner!

1 package I bought really was not going to show me anything for the 6th string, but I knew that up front and that was from Mr. Brown. He was up front and told me that it would not help me learn anything for the 6th string, however, he did show the chords of many songs that I didn't have. So I bought it and it served my purpose!

Im not going to mention anyone's names here but out of all the rest of the materials I've purchased have been a real waste of money and time. Only two people's material was of grest help!

I will be the first to say that all the teachers that I had purchased their material are outstanding musicians and can really play the steel. However, the fact is most of the material I've got they are not good teachers! and most of the material and I said MOST are not really worth the bucks. Why are they not?

First of all the teachers I think ASSUME too much from those they sell their material for. They assume that they know something when in fact most don't. If they knew something most would not have to purchase anything in the first place. Secondly, in most cases the viewer cannot see the frets that the teacher is playing at, and they cannot see what strings in most part the teacher is picking! Fourth, the teachers don't explain verbally what they are doing, they assume that the viewer can see what they are doing or make guesses or they will just keep playing back the vids until they finally get it!

I have had friends of mine who are very good guitar and/or piano players. All can read music and tabs, they are not beginners at all, and even a few know theory as well if not better then anyone on this forum! All of them did have something in common, none of the have been around steel guitars at all! Everyone of them new absolutely nothing about a steel guitar.

I called them over and there were 12 in all. They didn't all come over at once but over a period of 2 weeks I got them all over. I gave them my old steel that my mother gave me and we went through my entire collection of steel guitar instructional videos! Yes everyone of them. All of them came to the conclusion that 87% of them really sucked and were a waste of time and money. That these so called professional teachers first played more then they talked! They showed they were great players, but not even good as instructors. That most of their playing they could not tell what frets were barred and what strings were picked! the very same complaints that I had.

Then I showed them the best instructional dvd set that I had from who many guitar players bitch about and have nothing good to say and that is Esteban! Each of the said damn what a difference, you can not only see what figures are used to pick with, but you can see exactly what chords are being played. More important he talks about everything he is doing from square one! He can have you figure picking and playing a song in just a few days, may be not up to speed, but at least you can get through a song in just days.

I've listened to some of the steel dvd's now over a month and have not really progressed. The reason is there is so much stuff REALLY NOT SHOWN and you really have to figure out a lot of stuff on your own!

If your paying for a course, you should get what your paying for and shouldn't have to guess or figure stuff out on ones own! thats what your paying for!

Now going back and reading every thread here. It is obvious to me that most of the pros here are still missing the point of the purpose of this thread! and many are obviously getting their feelings hurt from hearing the truth!

The fact is most are trying to show their knowledge or how smart they are, but not giving any real help to the newbie! I've heard topics like "key", "chord", "notes", etc. but no one really explained any of those topics, which would help the newbie tremendously. NO ONE WANTS TO HEAR ABOUT THEORY! They want to PLAY A SONG! Even if its just one.

For those that think there instructional material is great, obviously, they never had a newbie come in and play their material in front of them to really see how good the material is. They are just out for the simple 10-20-30-40 bucks and are cashing in and the newbie has to look around for another course to see if that gets him over the hump he/she has found themselves in.

Buy Buy Buy that all ya hear you have to buy this or you have to buy that! Some people just don't have the bucks to keep spending just to find out they are having the same problems of not being able to see what fret or what strings what fingers, etc. And boy, if ya don't know theory forget about it! YA DON'T HAVE TO KNOW THEORY HOW TO PLAY A FEW SONGS!

I still bring up Johnny Cash and he was asked if he knew how to read music, knew anything about theory and his answer was NO! I was taught a few chords a few simple songs and along the way, I learned more chords and a little about picking the strings and after several years caught a few breaks here and there and that is why Im here today. I'll never forget parts of that interview. I'm sure he has played more gigs, recorded more songs, played with more pros, and made more money then anyone in this forum.

So ya don't have to know theory or to read music or tabs to become known as one of the best showman of all time!

Now the Eagles on the other hand are on the spectrum they knew and know theory and everything else like the beatles, the beach boys, etc!

In addition yes they are all or have been all lumped into one, when the fact is you have the 6, 8, 10 string steels, then you have all these different tuning? then you have non-pedal and pedal steels! There are so many differences regards to a steel guitar then carter has peanuts!

That fact is in my opinion is that everyone at some point was taken under someone's wings and was shown a lot that made it a lot more easier then the average JOE just starting out!

Now that most must be really aggravated with my comments, well thats good. Especially if they take more time, sit back, and really look at what they are selling to THE SO CALLED NEWBIE!

Chow

Dean from S.I. NY

Steve

what you wrote will work for some, many perhaps
but not all

Tony was right , we can't lump all rookies together
some will learn theroy and apply it
others will do it some other way
we have to be willing to help them
in whatever way they need
not just the way that we think is right

ok

Calvin Stated:

Don thinks everyone is a moron except him and like's to make every one think he wrote the book on music

Sorry if that's how you feel Cal, but your dead wrong on your assumptions. I don't feel I'm really anything but one who raised his family by playing music, like so many others have on here as well. Nothing more, nothing less.

Felt I'd pass along some of what has been a great way of life that I loved and still love. And yes! It hurts me to hear someone say they've tried playing for five years, and states it was a waste of time.

With that being said, Cal, I wish you all my best in your coming years ahead.

I sincerely mean that.

Don

Just to clear this one up so there's no confusion.

Dean Wrote:

1 package I bought really was not going to show me anything for the 6th string, but I knew that up front and that was from Mr. Brown. He was up front and told me that it would not help me learn anything for the 6th string, however, he did show the chords of many songs that I didn't have. So I bought it and it served my purpose!

Dean was not referring to me selling him anything, as I've never sold any form of music, or theory, to anyone. And I think he is referring to the C6 tuning, and not a 6th string? I really don't know what he meant by that. But I did want to clear that up. I've been accused of enough for one day.

And, I really don't feel it's right putting down anyones courses. Simply because one cannot comprehend the material on something, doesn't mean the material is no good.

Just as when folks can't comprehend what's being told to them by those who do know, doesn't mean the ones trying their best are not good either.

Before leaving this thread for good, I again want to point out for all the new folks who may or may not be in a rut.

Take the ONE song.. Don't laugh: "Red River Valley" and play it and play it and play it again and again, until you can play it flawlessly. You first have to learn repetition, because trust me when I say that in order to perform a great lick, you must play it over and over and over, until it's a part of you, in order to get it right, and be able to use it in all ways. There is no SHORT cuts to learning. Only time, repetition, patience, and practice.

I keep going back to that song, simply because it's such a simple song, and yet can be played from the very basics, and yet still sound good regardless of how complex YOU choose to make it. It can be played slow, fast, or even way up beat, and it all still sounds great.

With that all said, Mr. "Know it All" has now left this thread.

May you all have many happy and rewarding returns for your time and efforts, in learning one of the greatest, and most complex instruments there is. But yes! The rewards far outweigh the efforts in the end result.

Everyone have a Great, New Year.

Don

Hello Calvin,
I wasn't going to voice my opinion on this thread, me being a beginner, but I beleive I will. And this is just MY own thoughts. I think Don, Sr. has made a couple of fine comments and seems to be a fine gentleman who should command more respect from you. I watched your 1st post on youtube an thought it was lousy. If that's as good as you can do in five years you ought to give it up. It boils down to 'having a natural ability' to learn anything. Your born with it. Then a person only needs guidance to bring that talent out and be able to progress. Elsewise you will never be any better than what someone teaches you. You don't have that God given talent to be a psg player. You have already placed yourself a class above us new players when in fact I think, as Don said, YOU are looking for answers for your own short-comings and not for the benefit of us new players. With all respect due you I think you need to take a close look at yourself, your attitude, and your real motives. Respect is earned from floks, not guarranted. Some apoligies may be in order on your part.
Having spoke my thoughts I will take my 'thumps' from those who may not agree.

Jerry Grant

i too am guilty of assumming what the newbies know

so let try to correct that oversight

a chord is 3 notes played together
3 strings normaly the 10,8,&6
or the 8,6 & 5 or the 6,5& 4 or the 5,4 & 3
are called a triad
some call them grips if played together
all the MAJOR CHORDS are made by putting the bar
on a fret and playing any of the 3 string groups

put the bar on the 1st fret and its an F
2nd fret is F#
3rd is G
and so on, these are all NO pedal positions
a G7th can be played by picking the
7 or 9 string instead of the 10 string or the 6th string
a Minor can be played by adding the A pedal
if at any time you don't understand things like this
PLEASE ASK anyone on the forum
your not stupid for asking
there was a time none of us knew these things
if i can help in any small way please ask .
don't quit because you feel that you can't do this
you can

Rev. Dwight Moody...

In order for your mind to grow you must learn that the difference between crap and fertilizer is how you use it.

As you can see by reading the comments on this forum topic you need High top boots and a good grasp of music theory to wade through all the crap to get very little fertilizer. This is general statement and not a slam on any one particular post.
As for C#dim being an A7, actually it's an A7b9 with the root missing but then again who cares.

Jerry

i could not agree with you more about my youtube thing..its god awful!!!
but consider this: it was the first thing i have ever played for the public
plus the fact that i have a nerve condition
now talk to the pros, they will almost without exception
tell you their first time in public
was almost as bad
in fact one of the best players anywhere told me that the first time he played in front of people
his left leg was shaking so bad he could not work the pedals
so yes i agree, it was awful

but at least i had the nerve to do it
have you ?

and by the way, i do indeed admire those
that have the guts to do it on stage

Sorry Don your right, but at least it was a good compliment! lolol The person I was referring to is or was Doug Beaumier, I had to go back and find the material! But when after I asked Doug a few questions he was really right up front and told me that his material (songs) were really for the E9 pedal steel and told me that it would not help me in playing the 6th string no pedal. However, he did mention that his material contained the chords. He gave me several of the songs that he had and I didn't have none of them so for me, I bought Doug's material BUT I KNEW EXACTLY WHAT I WAS GETTING! More importantly his material was written in music and tab form which was and is great as I can read both!

At the time, Don Sr was also right, I was playing in C6 tuning and on a 6th string and non-pedal!

I do apologize to you Don, it was not you, but still if it would have been you in stead of Doug. A flattering comment as Im sure you would have been up front as Doug was knowing exactly what I played.

As for those that believe one shouldn't comment about ones courses? Why not! Some are lucky I didn't give out the names of the ones that I was talking about! Its human nature to want to know if your course(s) are worth while, why not give the other objective as well? Thats what is called word of mouth! If ya don't have a good product well I'm sorry but it shouldn't be sold! If you got a good product then of course it should be discussed!

There are always excuses from the smart A**'s on why some cannot play well just because they can. Too BAD!
Just that some may be a little embarrassed that they had a lot of help from someone else, that got them thru the humps or whatever! There are very limited number of people who took up any instrument and within weeks or month come out smelling like a rose and to play like a pro!

Lets face another fact not everyone picks up an instrument to be a professional or to play in a band! Most pick it up just because they want to learn and they want to play music! They really don't even care if they play good, but just to make themselves happy and have something to do!

And it not that they cannot comprehend what is on or not on a course! The issue is whether or not the course teaches! Most people, are too embarrassed to say they wasted their money or time with anything. If ya bought a new car even thou its a lemon its the best car ya had, if ya bought a boat even if it is a lemon its the best boat!

Like anything else BUYER BE WARE! know what your buying up front. A few courses are really great others well for many its too late once they have bought.

However, again I offer my sincere apology to Mr. Bob, it was not your material I bought from. Thats how many different stuff I have bought. To day I again went over several courses just too see if I missed something and nope, still hve the same questions on the ones I viewed again today! WHAT IS SAID TO BE ON THE DVD'S ARE NOT THERE! 3 of the courses after being told its on this or that dvd. I have those 3 transcribed word for word now. So it is not the issue of not being able to understand or comprehend, they don't contain the material!

I love it when people make money and then get their feelings hurt when something is discussed. It is alway the other persons fault for not being smart enough for them to understand the material. If they were smart enough they would have to spend money on learning! What a joke!

Now I will name names, out of all the course and material I've purchased in the past month or so, the only two that I would recommend is GeorgeBoards and Rick Alexander's material! Rick's new set Pieces of Steel is out right great and the newbies will learn how to play some songs in a pretty quick time frame! I first had a problem with GeorgeBoards material, but he finally made a comment to me about his 1 DVD, so it got me thinking where is the DVD so I started looking and I did find that DVD still in the envelope and WALLA it did have what I needed to know. I did let him know that I did find that 1 DVD and yes it did make all the difference.

The others and I should mention the names because they are not for the beginner at all. but down the road Im sure I'll be able to learn something from them.

May be someone should start a thread, "WHAT COURSES HAVE YOU PURCHASED AND WAS A WASTE OF TIME?" or "WHAT COURSES HAVE YOU PURCHASED THAT YOU THOUGHT WAS GREAT?" Now I'm sure that would be very interesting and all out war! but would be fun to sit back and watch.


Dean from S.I. NY

Who cares weather your first time post was good, fair or terrible for that matter. You play better then I do! lololol However, you had the guts to make it, to play it and you had fun! Most important Im sure you learned something from your own post.

The joker that made the complaint didn't pay to watch you and more importantly he could have turned it off if he didn't want to continue to view it!

Even the pros who are making hundreds, thousands of dollars forget the words, notes and chords while preforming!

Its really fun reading some of these posts! Its really a gasssssssss

You can tell the real pros from the A**'s thats for sure! As I always refer to, in most cases its the person that starts out trying to defend themselve when they are in the wrong. I guy runs a red light smacks you in the side, is the first one out or the car yelling and scream, you ran the red light! The drunk who smashes into a house, gets out of his car falling over and is yelling damn you, you moved your house into the road! Or the guy who just slammed into someone rear, will get out and yell and screamed YOU STOPPED TO FAST! But obviously we know that one should always be paying attention to the road and his or her car under control at all times!

At least Im honest, I KNOW NOTHING!!!! and I won't change my story.

Dean from S.I. NY

Calvin I never stated you need to understand theory to get started what I said was this in a nutshell , don't down play it because at some point you do have to cross over and gain some basic knowledge to progress and to play music with others . Consider it a serious advantage.


Remember, I am speaking of basic knowledge and not become a Music Professor.

Understanding some theory is not a mandatory thing but it will jump start you past the issues you have spoke of.

New music students should never get bogged down into the theory of it all but a good teacher will glide them into the basics and be certain they understand whats going on so that they can progress.


Balance.

Sustain, holding that volume and tone especially when you're operating RH Knee levers..

And

Copying someone elses instrumental..there's so many places on the steel where you can find and copy the melody along with harmony notes.. When you have found it though, it always makes you say.. Thats easy to play, when it sounded like a hard lick to learn on the first few listens..

David

Tony

again your right . i should not down play needing to learn music theroy we can all benafit from learning it
but speaking for myself , i got overwhelmed by it in the begining and had to put it on the back
burner until i played a little, THEN it made a lot more sense

thanks for keeping me straight

Don Brown Sr....
I hope that the current unfair, disrespectful treatment of you does not in any way discourage you from teaching us who are willing to accept learning from you.

I must say it is sad to see an otherwise great thread deteriorate into nothing because of one persons misguided sense of what is right and wrong.

Calvin, Please explain the following:

put the bar on the 1st fret and its an F
2nd fret is F#
3rd is G
and so on, these are all NO pedal positions
a G7th can be played by picking the
7 or 9 string instead of the 10 string or the 6th string

I need to learn this theory of yours too.

I need to know about making a G7 with the 7 string?

The 9 string on the third fret yes! I'll go along with that, as it's an "F" which happens to be the flatted 7th that you need.. But how are you going to tell folks to use the 7 string, which just so happens to be an "A" to get a G7th?

Which happens to be a II or a 9th?

Now you see why you could confuse a barn full of folks? Including myself.

Seems like there are 5 kinds of beginners.

1) One who does not know music theory and is just barely learning an instrument. We all started here.
Some of us stay here.

2) One who can play an instrument to a certain degree of satisfaction, but does not know music theory. Even if they get pretty good on their instrument mechanicly, this person is still a rank beginner concerning music theory. Some will stay here in this "comfort zone".

3) One who knows music theory well, but lack enough ability/discipline/drive to master an instrument. It will likely be a cool hobby occasionally.

4) One who knows music theory, can play an instrument well, and is learning another instrument. This person won't be a beginner very long at all, and will go further, quicker faster. This person wants to become a #5, when they progress to that border.

5)The person who has enough heart to FEEL music. That heart drives them through many barriers, including learning theory as well as physically playing their instrument--mastering it. Passion?? This person thrives on figuring out the how & why things tick. They were a #4 and became a #5, then maybe they were a #5 all the long?

Sooner or later, we will quit progressing if we do not learn music theory, thus limiting our real potential. You can still learn to play pedal steel mechanically, but if you do not have it in your heart to FEEL the music, you will always sound like you don't feel your music. Some will always be the listeners of music, some will become players of music.

I would just like to say that I appreciate ALL of the contributors to this thread. This is one of the best threads I've seen here in a while. I'll be printing out the whole thing and putting it in one of my music folders under GOOD STUFF!

Calvin Walley...

jerry.... i could not agree with you more about my youtube thing..its god awful!!!
but consider this: it was the first thing i have ever played for the public
plus the fact that i have a nerve condition

Calvin I'm sure you are going to get a lot of lookers on your youtube and by now your famous here on the forum. In show beezzz there's no such thing as bad publicity. If you enjoy making those videos make a bunch of em.