I hear what you're saying Mike. My beef ultimately is that as someone who invested time and money in a college level education like any other professional in any other field, we should no be devalued and yes the fault does not really fall on the luthiers here. Music IS a luxury and yety everyone wants it. So the real question is why do they think they can have it for free?
So what would you all say it TOO much for a custom steel? Mind you i find that none cusotm steels seem overpriced (some models) Then again are most steels really one offs when it's a one man op?
-A
Michaelangelo (the painter/sculptor not the Mutant Ninja Turtle) said "Artists sleep on the doorsteps of the rich".
Such is our fate. i admit tho its worse than ever...with the death of the NEA and the disappearance of music from our public schools, it seems our society values the role of the artist not at all. who needs beauty and culture anyway?
I don't undervalue the work done by Luthiers, in any way. Truth is though that, while arguments can be made about prices remaining inflation-consistent, musicians salaries have not; I stayed full time in the industry for 15 years, only working regular jobs to keep the black camel from kneeling at my door. I now have absolutely nothing to show for it except a lot of bad memories of club owners telling me how unlikely it is that we will get our Taco Bell money at the end of a show, in spite of the 400+ people that are there at $7 or more a head. Yet audiences expect musicians to play these exceptional instruments and are educated about values and age in a way that they never were before. Closet hacks that can barely string 3 chords together can talk about the differences in the width of a skunk stripe on the neck of a strat, and find a guitarist lacking due to poor equipment or unexpected gear. JJ Cale has always been dissed for using Casio guitars, for example.
And before someone makes the inane argument that I should have moved on before now if it required such sacrifice, I can only say that you can't possibly know what you are saying; a musician that is in it for the art of it does it because they MUST, sometimes in the face of awful consequences. I always say that it is a measure of how much a musician loves their spouse that they give up music to raise a family. Might just as well cut off an arm.
OK, I just put on my asbestos butt-patch, flame away.
<SMALL>what does that make a custom builder that makes $12 an hour when it's all said and done?</SMALL>
Overpaid!!!!......
<SMALL>Might just as well cut off an arm.</SMALL>
Worked for Van Gogh....
<SMALL>Music IS a luxury and yety everyone wants it. So the real question is why do they think they can have it for free?</SMALL>
Good question, but I've never been accused of owning intellectual property....
<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by HowardR on 12 April 2006 at 12:49 PM.]</p></FONT>
What is the scale for musicians in your part of the nation? What is the average money for the non union players and those that play for tips etc.
In Central Texas it is not good, union boys don't even want to talk about the scale, which leads me to think they may not be members. Bars and Dance halls are about$35.00 to a large hall $125.00 not many large venues.
<SMALL>OK the thing to complain about is being poor </SMALL>
I hear you......
I'm sure most luthiers are struggling just as hard as us musicians, and if a few lucky ones 'break through' and establish themselves on a level that enables them to make a decent living, then good for them.
No problem building your own. All you need is a band saw, a belt sander, a drill press, a router in a router table, and a milling machine comes in handy too.
The fact is, building your own is really a hobby project, and if you have the equipment you can use it for other projects that your wife dreams up.
Just don't plan on coming out even.
I'm not a professional musician. I work for a living so who cares if I decide to spend a grand or better on the finest lap steel I can find? (ok maybe my wife) Aside from that, I've got a 49 10 string Ricky lap steel and I have my super slide along with a few other guitars. I took the Ricky out of the case the other day and played it for a hour or so. Then put it back and grabbed the super slide. As soon as I plugged the ss in and started playing I thought to myself the SS was worth every penny I paid for it. The sound coming from it compared to the vintage Ricky was unbelievable. Just fat and sweet as can be. Would I buy another ss? Oh yeah! I think if someone took away my super slide and gave me a $150 lap steel instead, I'd most likely throw up at the tone I'd get. It's a well thought out and crafted fine musical instrument. Sure I'm a hack steeler, right now. I don't intend to be that way forever though and I dig that my instrument is worthy of the effort I'm putting into learning to be a musician. I've always been inclined to buy the best when I spend money. Beit guns, pool cues or whatever and lap steel is just like everything else. You get what you pay for. I've found through the years that if I shop cheap, I'm never satisfied. Going to a lesser instrument than the SS would be like driving a caddy and then switching over to a bicycle with flat tires on it. Not for me boys. If you dig cheap buy cheap and enjoy your savings. For me, an instrument that I hope to play onstage someday is going to be the VERY best that can be had or it's outta here! My super slide fits that bill perfectly.
Rick
P.S. In fact MSA is working me up a price on a real special model right now. www.bobbygarrett.com <font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Rick Garrett on 13 April 2006 at 03:21 AM.]</p></FONT>
I was gonna say, "A fool!" but that's accurate too.
As someone who can barely say the word 'chord' much less string them together I could guarantee myself a poverty level existance making $50-$75 a night playing music....which is why I print T-shirts for a living and play gigs only on the weekends (thereby taking away some of those gigs from full-timers). This way I run just above poverty level but I don't have to stay up so late all the time.
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Half-assed bottleneck and lap slide player. Full-assed Builder of resonator instruments.
You know, I just don't buy this argument that amateur musicians somehow drive up the price of equipment. What proportion of musical instruments are actually purchased by professional musicians? I bet it's actually quite a low percentage. Without the volume of the amateur market driving sales, it would not be possible to realize economies of scale in manufacturing, and all instruments would be expensive, hand-built instruments. It's because of the amateur market that it's now possible to buy really quite good instruments for decent prices. Think Paul Beard Goldtone Resos, or Chandler lap steels. Or all of those beautiful vintage lap steels that are out there - it certainly wasn't professional musicians that drove that market.
I suspect that if you looked at actual purchasing behavior, you would find that on average, professional musicians are willing to spend significantly more money on instruments than amateurs regardless of income. Sure, there are always going to be some rich vintage collectors who buy up nice older instruments, but that's a very small part of the instrument market.
So thank your lucky stars that steel guitar is becoming so popular with us amateur musicians. Think of how many more makes and models of steel guitar are out there now, compared to five or ten years ago. I think there are more relatively inexpensive, quality instruments available now than at any time since maybe the early 1960s.
It would be interesting to take the price of a Fender Deluxe or Stringmaster (when they were new in the 1950s) and put it into today's dollars. I'll bet we wouldn't think the Superslide was so overpriced.
Well… i don't know the original list price of fender steels but i did find a cpi convertor online. $300 in 1958 would have bought $1775 in the year 2000. Ten years later in 1968, $300 would be worth $1474 in the year 2000.
(the convertor only goes up to the year 2000, so i couldn't check on today's values.)
There's also the difference in the terms used.....overpriced & expensive.
Expensive is not a bad thing. A higher, better quality anything is generally more expensive. Also, expensive is relative. If the item has a good value, it's worth it.
Overpriced, on the other hand, means that you are not receiving the value that you are paying for. You are not getting your moneys worth.<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by HowardR on 16 April 2006 at 02:06 PM.]</p></FONT>
Rick Garrett I agree with you 1000%. At this stage in my life, I only want the best. And I make enough money to afford it. The Superslides are the best I've ever played. If I ever find a better one, I'll buy that as well.
I have no dog in this hunt but I have seen the inside of a steel guitar mfg set up.It seems like the talk is about the cost of a "single" guitar when the fact is that the mfg's have to inventory several in order to keep the price as low as they are.When they buy keyheads they don't get just one.Same for changers,pup's,fretbds,frames and etc.. When they go out for frames they have sgl 10's,dbl 10's,single 10 on dbl frame so they have to order several of each to get a decent price.Then with all the colors etc and etc.Some of these bldrs have wood that is 20-25 years old.Moral of my story is they may make your steel when you order it but they have the parts available.A considerable investment not only in material but also in equipment.Also by being a small business operator he gets to pay for his own insurance,such as liability and product liability and also if he makes a thousand dollars he gets to pay social security $155. plus all the other taxes.It ain't all profit folks.If you can build yourself an instrument that plays well and satifys you,go for it!I think every builder would tell you that.One last thing,"The only thing more exciting than natural childbirth is owning your own business.Regards
