The Steel Guitar Forum

I sometimes read on this forum,forum members telling us how good a player they are.You know how they can blow their own horn."The Shadow knows"!!! Joe

i love jerry, the dead, and dylan! part of the soundtrack of my life. it is what it is!
this happens to be a sloppy unprofessional moment in which each of them probably made more money than i have in my entire career.

maybe it was just bad acid!

Truly awful stuff. Dylan is pathetic, as usual in his live performances. JG has no clue in this one. I'm glad there aren't any U Tubes of some of my worst work!
Still love ya Jerry! JP

I've played worse than that, and probably around the same time. While they were playing stadiums, I was playing bars. It made sense to me at the time. Still does, actually.

b0b rules!!! Ain't it the truth...

We all shoot ourselves in the foot from time to time...

and it's hard when it's the foot that controls the A pedal.

I remember a jam session where we had all been drinking pretty heavily, and the general impression was that the music was great. We certainly all had a good time. The next morning I played the tape and somehow it sounded a lot different in the sober light of morning.
Music is to have fun with. Let's give the guys a break.

Amen, fellow forumites; Let Jerry Rest In Peace., Bernie

I agree with Alan on this one.

Music is to have fun with. Let's give the guys a break

Give it a listen, have a laugh or a groan .
Appreciate something we get from the new medium...
I would rather have it than not.

I also appreciate everyone’s input on this thread no matter what your opinion is .

Thanks for posting the clip. I've heard worse, and I've heard better. But I like to hear realistic rock concert situations like this - it's a different world than a quiet club gig. I've been roped into gigs where I tore my hair out with ear-splitting stage volume, lousy monitors, can't hear myself, tunes I never heard of, and then the spotlight comes down for a solo. I think I've wised up some, and if I can't find something reasonable to play, I try to keep filling. I bet if he had stuck to backup, this would have probably turned out OK.

But I agree that while the party is going on, going out on the limb may seem like a good idea at the time, and then just hope nobody was recording. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt - argggh. I seem to recall a parable about stones and glass houses.

I do love some of the youtube comments.

"i love Jerry's playing on this beautiful song!
thank you for posting.."

"Au Contraire. The audio quality of this clip certainly does not do the subtle, intricate tonal work on Jerry's steel any justice....He ranks among the best steel players ever."

"Hey, troutback, it's not Jerry who is out of tune the most, it's Dylan. Jerry hits a few bloopers, but it's mainly Dylan, I think."

But don't blame this kind of stuff on Jerry. He obviously had a realistic view of his himself, and was certainly no egomaniac. To boot - he did lots of great stuff over his career. I think the music world is much for the worse without him. One thing for sure - his music was honest and real - no autotuners, no BS. Just play it and let the chips fall where they may. I think that's a big part of the appeal of this kind of music in a world that is hung up on "perfection" - real or synthetic.

From another guy who was influenced by Jerry, and might well not be playing steel now without that influence.

I'm still wondering if that was some kind of black glove on Bob's picking hand.

Jerry Who???

Again? Aside from dissing "contemporary country", why does this one set everybody off? I can't agree with Mike P's explanation, since I doubt those doing the dissing have any direct experience with the oddities of the Jerry cultists (and as noted Jerry himself had no patience with that).

The Dead had a different approach to music. I've heard them sound *much* worse than the clip shows. Their whole approach to music as anarchic, and sometimes it stunk and sometimes it was fabulous. The Dead themselves thought their audience a bit weird since they often cheered when the band thought they were awful.

As to Jerry's steel playing, I heard him in 200 person club on the New Riders' first real gig, and he did a perfectly adequate job of supporting the song, which is all he was trying to do. I first heard Bobby Black the same year, and it was clear Jerry wasn't in Bobby's class technically, but it was clear also he wasn't trying to be.

So, this had come up so many times I'm convinced that by now the trashing of Garcia says a lot more about the trasher than the trashee.

-eric

I'm still wondering if that was some kind of black glove on Bob's picking hand.

yes, i believe he's wearing one of those fingerless gloves that bikers sometimes wear. this was the 80s after all, and Dylan wasn't the sharp dresser he is now. he had his ear pierced back then too!

I saw a Utube clip the other day of Lloyd Green playing "Country Boy" with Ricky Scaggs at the usual fast clip...Ricky threw a solo to Lloyd and he duffed it !! So it can happen to everyone ha !! I'm not sure he was expected it actually from the look on his face :-}

There was a video years ago of Clapton playing "Sunshine of Your Love" and he blows the first part of the solo, starts laughing, and then there's a caption on the screen that says "oops!" or something similar.

I'm sure some traditional blues players started "Clapton bashing" about THAT one - after all, he's not traditional, and doesn't measure up to Freddie King, B.B., the song's not "blues".....bla bla bla.

And it seems like for 40 years there's been the "I'm (fill in the age blank, which will be a high number) and it all sounds like noise to me". Reminds me of Guitar Player magazine in the early days, when the jazz and classical players considered themselves above the noisemakers.

Some things just never change.

So, this had come up so many times I'm convinced that by now the trashing of Garcia says a lot more about the trasher than the trashee.

Oh give it a rest, will 'ya? Good grief, it seems that if someone comes on here and expresses an opinion that someone else is an average player, they automatically get shot down for trashing them. What the heck is that all about? I'd say fully 95% of the players who post here are pretty "average" players, myself (and probably yourself) included, and are every bit as good as Jerry was.

When someone (you, me, Jerry, or anyone else) does a good job on a few songs that they've played, that doesn't mean everyone has to rate them as a "great player".

Jerry was, at best, an average steeler. He knew it and admitted it - why can't you?

Most of us are pretty average steelers.

Get over it.

My sentiments exactly, Donny.

RR

If memory serves they were on a double bill with Dylan,
and they just decided to have a jam on some songs,
and Dylan didn't have Pete Drake with him so asked Jerry to wing it.

I also have heard a lot worse live from players.
But none of them were in front of such a massive crowd,
6 months after getting out of a coma...

Donny and Roger...I beg to differ. Even a casual search on the Forum will show that Jerry's been trashed WAY more than anyone else. It isn't fair. He wasn't a great player and he knew it, and most of us know it. I tend to think that that the bulk of the negativity towards him by some here goes much deeper than tone, chops and lack of expertise. If that's true, then I think it's a shame.

I think you (Mike) may have come pretty close to the truth of it when you posted:

"He still has the most recognizable steel intro, ride and outro in "Teach Your Children"...done in his prime, after playing only for a short time. It wasn't Buddy, Lloyd, or Jay Dee...it was Jerry. Hurts, don't it?"

Here's a guy from a "hippy rock band", who's just learning to play steel and ends up with that legacy. I think maybe that's just too much for a lot of people, especially those who consider themselves steel players and know that Jerry wasn't a great player.

For myself, I can't say I've never trashed another player, but I'm more like this....if they're a truly nice person and doing their best and know they're not great (like Jerry), if asked I would say something like "yeah he/she isn't really great, but is a great person, doing his/her best, trying hard, loves the instrument and is learning fast".... if they're an arrogant jerk and act like they're God's gift to the instrument and a lousy player, (like some I've come across) I'm more inclined to say "he/she can't play and is a jerk besides".

I've never heard anything other than that Jerry was a really nice and humble guy who loved the steel, gave it a try and knew he wasn't good on it. I think it's OK to say he wasn't really good, but I see no reason for being nasty about it...and I really see no reason to keep bringing up this same discussion.

Just MHO.

Jim Phelps,I agree with 100%.I did one tour playing lead guitar for Jerry Jeff Walker my first gig was Arrowhead Stadium with Waylon Jennings,Willie Nelson,and the Grateful Dead,They had a small ball room in the hotel where all of the bands would have their meals I got to have dinner with Mickey Hart,and his kid also Bill Kreutzman,and other members...very nice folks.After dinner I introduced myself to Jerry Garcia and he took five minutes out of his busy life to visit with me,They didn't get any nicer than Jerry.Myself being a former mean prick,I choose to show Jerry respect, and dignity that he deserves.

Jim and Mike -

You can accept this or not - others here have jumped to erroneous conclusions regarding my apparent motives in my response to this thread - but I can assure you that I have no prejudice regarding Garcia's musicianship, and this is the very first (and the last!) time I've ever been drawn into a 'discussion'.

I don't care for the Grateful Dead, I don't think Jerry was a brilliant guitarist, and I've always hated Dylan's voice. That clip, therefore, was particularly grating for me, as they were both having a bad day. No - it isn't 'my kind of music'; I, too, love to hear soul and heart in music, but I prefer to hear a higher level of technical accomplishment. The two qualities are not mutually exclusive, you know!

Garcia's steel part on TYC was adequate, and I agree that it was fun to hear a pedal steel out in the pop mainstream back then. I also think he was in the right place at the right time, but you couldn't be more wrong if you think that I somehow resent the high regard in which that record is held.

BUT!! The suggestion that this music should be above criticism because one of the participants has passed away is ridiculous! It doesn't matter if I'm a bad, an indifferent, or an exceptional steel player myself - it wouldn't matter if I didn't even play an instrument, for goodness sake - this music is in the public domain and therefore open to critical comment.

It goes without saying that I wish I'd never posted my off-the-cuff comments earlier; not because I take any of it back, but because I regret the almost incredible level of misunderstanding between so-called Forum 'brothers' ( ) that has been the result.

RR

Roger, first of all I wasn't even thinking of you personally when I wrote my post. I've always held you in very high regard, at least musically. However, this last post...

others here have jumped to erroneous conclusions regarding my apparent motives in my response to this thread - but I can assure you that I have no prejudice regarding Garcia's musicianship, and this is the very first (and the last!) time I've ever been drawn into a 'discussion'.

I was not speaking for others, just myself, nor was I addressing my post to YOU or even had you in mind.

I don't care for the Grateful Dead, I don't think Jerry was a brilliant guitarist, and I've always hated Dylan's voice. That clip, therefore, was particularly grating for me, as they were both having a bad day. No - it isn't 'my kind of music'; I, too, love to hear soul and heart in music, but I prefer to hear a higher level of technical accomplishment. The two qualities are not mutually exclusive, you know!

That's fine with me. I like players with technical competence too. I'd rather hear Curly Chalker than just about anyone (on steel). In fact, I've never been into Jerry or the Grateful Dead either, the only song I've even heard in it's entirety is Truckin', because it was on a jukebox in a club I played and was played a lot. I don't know anything about the Dead, except I thought Truckin' was OK, and the other clips I've heard on YouTube etc. are not really my kind of music. I've never liked Dylan either, except he wrote some good songs, I can't stand his singing. <b> So what. Just because it isn't my kind of music doesn't mean I give the players any less respect, courtesy, or benefit of the doubt than I'd give anyone else.</b>

Garcia's steel part on TYC was adequate, and I agree that it was fun to hear a pedal steel out in the pop mainstream back then. I also think he was in the right place at the right time, but you couldn't be more wrong if you think that I somehow resent the high regard in which that record is held.

When I first began hearing it on the radio, I thought, "Sheesh, who's playing steel? Plays like a beginner!". Later I began thinking "you know, it fits, it's not so bad". Sometimes now I even think a little beginner naivete has a certain charm over super-polished and sometimes sterile expert playing, in some contexts. TYC is that kind of context.

BUT!! The suggestion that this music should be above criticism because one of the participants has passed away is ridiculous! It doesn't matter if I'm a bad, an indifferent, or an exceptional steel player myself - it wouldn't matter if I didn't even play an instrument, for goodness sake - this music is in the public domain and therefore open to critical comment.

I never said it was above criticism.

It goes without saying that I wish I'd never posted my off-the-cuff comments earlier; not because I take any of it back, but because I regret the almost incredible level of misunderstanding between so-called Forum 'brothers' ( ) that has been the result.

RR

That may be, I've regretted posting many times... but again, if you're including me in that remark, again I wasn't even THINKING of YOU. I don't know why you felt it necessary to single out Mike and myself for your "accept it or not" bit. I think you're the one who needs to accept... accept that although Garcia wasn't really good, some people think so. He got lucky and played on a famous song. That's life.

Now why can't we all just get over it...

Ole Jerry wasn't too good on steel, and Bob Dylan (as good of a songwriter as he was) couldn't carry a tune, but they still packed 'em in... Why? For the same reason you have people hailing him as one of the best steel players ever on Youtube: it's called hero worship. The "deadheads" would do that no matter what Jerry said about his own playing.

If you think about it, what gets people all fired up about this isn't really even the playing itself; it's the amount of acclaim it receives, how many people pay to see it, etc.

There was a time when I was on a steady diet of Led Zeppelin, and I associated with people who were also. In this circle, Jimmy Page was the unquestioned world's best guitarist, John Bonham was the world's greatest drummer, and so on (and by the way, Jimmy's steel playing sounded about like Jerry's - enough to make one of us sterile). People are just like that. They love the music and connect to it emotionally, and end up idolizing the source - it's human nature if you think about it. People become loyal, and even closed-minded because of this.

Oh well. I'm not going to be buying tickets to stuff like this, and I'm not going to be standing in anyone else's way either. Rather than get offended by someone putting Jerry Garcia or Jimmy Page far above Lloyd Green or Paul Franklin due to ignorance, I'll just realize that it's ignorance and let it go. Most people who hail Jerry's playing as the best probably don't realize what else is out there because it's some of the only steel playing they have ever heard, and probably ever will.

Just as long as no one gets hostile about this stuff, we can all live and let live.