The Steel Guitar Forum

Joel Paterson wrote:I hope that no one with a genuine interest in getter better at chord theory is reading this thread.

Yea, this discussion seems scary for everyone, not just newbies. While I don't have a dog in this race, I think it comes down to..if your going to use a strange cord, know what your doing with it. Bad cords are probably like trying to drive an 18 wheeler. Ya better know what all 20 or so gears do and when to use 'em. I'll stick with the simple 15 cords I have learned. Rock and Roll folks have made millions with just 3 cords. Now that I have stirred that pot...I'll be moving on...

My favorite?

Major elevenths. That gets in the sus 4 that Eric would like to see banned.
You can play SOOO many notes with a thirteenth chord, and they all work, in a King Sunny kind of way.

Uh - it seems to depend on:

A: how many people in the band are playing chords;
B: who's in charge;
C: what is the person in charge trying to do to the songs?
D: is the person in charge a genius, or...?
E: who's paying you, and what are they paying you for?

Reinterpretations are fine, as is re-harmonizing with jazz chords, except when it's not. Does it suck? If the audience hates your chords, that's pretty much a self-correcting problem in the Darwinian sense.... If you've re-harmonized "The Wedding March" in the superlocrian mode with a tres moderne new ascending half-step chord movement, it may work out just fine - I want that gig....

What's the difference between a jazz guitarist and a rock guitarist?

A rock guitarist plays 3 chords in front of 1,000 people.

A jazz guitarist plays 1,000 chords in front of 3 people.

What's the most sacred of all chords?


G sus.

What do you get when you drop a Push Pull D12 down a mine shaft? Abm


Seriously, on one session where I was playing acoustic rhythm guitar, the simple song went from E to A often.

I played open first position chords, then changed a bit to a fourth position E to fifth position A.
(Still Major Chords)

The artist saw this and cautioned me, "Watch those Jazz chords!"

I went back to open chords and he was happy.

I hereby, formally nominate Joel Paterson for president!

Eric, the chord you are describing is E13. There is no "add7". Either a chord is a dominant 7th or not. It's called E13 because we can assume it has a dominant 7th with a 13th interval stacked in there somewhere (the voicing doesn't matter), it's called E9 because we know it has a dominant 7th, etc.
E6 means it doesn't have a 7th. E add 2 means it has the 2nd interval added and no 7th. I don't want to argue any more because I think you are making up your own terminology. But everyone has their own way to communicate with band members about chord changes. You just have to work it out with the people you play with so the band sounds good- the audience doesn't care what you call it.
Yes, I agree- playing a E13 as a tonic would be obviously wrong (especially as the root of a country song) unless the song has a blues or ragtime feel or is headed soon to the IV chord.

Someone should make a long distance call to Ray Charles and tell him not to use those jazz chords on country tunes anymore.

ps: I love a good 11 chord

I may be wrong (and probably am), but it seems like the folks who don't like uptown chord arrangements, can't hear them to play them.

I may be way off here, but I usually use the sus4th version of the V chord, over the one chord. In C I play a gsus4 over the Cmaj, usually arpegiating it, letting it ring for a bit then resolving it, so by reverse engineering, maybe treating the guitar players sus4 as a v and finding the relative Imaj and playing it? I.E. if guitar =gsus4, then steel=cmaj? sorry if this response is wrong, thats what I THINK I have been doing... Joel, all modified chords other than add 6 have a flat seven unless its called a maj7th right? been trying to grasp that better.

Some people are taking this thread waaaaaaay to seriously, especially Bernie Liebe. "Chord police force"? "Conformity"? "God bless America"???

Come on, people! I'll let Eric correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure he's mostly just thinking out loud here, rather than actually suggesting that certain chords should be forbidden in any way. We can all play whatever we want, or whatever the person who hired us wants. There will be no "banning" of any chords.

Lighten up. If there were ever a thread on here that one shouldn't get worked up over, it's this one.

this and the Bon Jovi one,,lol

I'll stick to what Jeff Newman told us: If it sounds good, play it.

I have said my part.
Thank You.

Hey Steve,
It's a tricky issue- because even advanced jazz musicians I know can't agree on how to write chord symbols. That's for another huge thread.
To everyone involved in this threadzilla:
In my opinion, the two important intervals in any given chord are the 3rd and the 7th- whether it's major or minor, and if it's a dominant 7th or not.
Everything else is up to the player. You don't even need a root.
You can add a 6th to a major chord (be careful because it will make it sound Hawaiian and "Western Swingy" to most ears.
You can always add a 2 unobtrusively, but sometimes it gives it a "sus" type sound.
You can add a major 6th, minor 7th (same as flat 7th) or major 7th to a minor chord- but of course these can sound too "jazzy" and "spy show" to some ears.
You can add almost anything to a dominant 7th chord (a music theory term for a chord with a major 3rd and a flatted 7th) but you have to think about where you are resolving. Dominant 7 chords are always going somewhere- their job is to move the song along and maybe add some nice dissonance. The only times (I can think of off the top of my head) that you would resolve and end a song with a dominant 7th is in a blues, funk, soul jazz, or ragtime type song.
But you can't add dominant 7ths where they don't belong, and you can't mix up major and minor (take this with a grain of salt because we all brake this rule on a regular basis when we play "Blue Notes", which are technically flat 3rds, flat 5ths and flat 7ths added to a major key. If you think this shouldn't be done in a country song just listen to Lloyd Green with Johnny Paycheck).
I guess the only hard and fast "rule" I can think of is don't add a major 3rd to a minor chord. But again, you can break this rule quite nicely going to the IV chord in a minor key- before you go there, turn the I minor into a I7, make the 3rd major and it leads to the root of the IV chord.
Of course, these are all my opinions based on my playing experience. Sorry if my chord symbols and terminology don't make sense to you. Also, I have no experience using the "Nashville Number System" which I'm sure looks totally different.
And Duane, I didn't take this thread seriously until it was implied that this thread was making people "instantly illiterate, and some just plain stupid." after one of my posts.
And on the subject of all of our different musical tastes- The Classic Jazzman Eddie Condon summed it up best when asked his opinion of Be-boppers. He said, "They flat their fifths, we drink ours."

Thanks Joel, I wasnt as far off as I thought I was. Im supposed to play in Chi-town in Dec. Is there a place to rent a e9 rig? I am trying to avoid flying with my d10 for just one show.
Steve

Steely Dan has made a career of those add II chords. Chords can be used much more freely in a trio. There are some horrible things that happen if you start adding on those extensions and the other guitarist, keyboard, steeler doesn't, or adds on something different.
Some songs just are simple by design, and you really can ruin them with substitution chords. Substitution is fine if you do it for a reason OTHER than to impress whomever with your vast musical knowledge. JP

>>>I once heard somebody play "Honky Tonk Woman" with Major 7 chords. <<<

I bet Buddy Love could pull it off.
Can't ya hear it?
"I met a gin soaked, bar-room crazy chick in memphis..."

The chords that should be banned are the ones I can't find before they are gone.

All chords must pass ...

JP. I've always thought of the Steely Dan chord when I hear an "Add 2" or a "ninth".

Remember, in actual bandstand playing, you're probably not the only one playing a chord, and then probably not the same octave, or with the same lowest note, so yes, a "13th" chord often does not stretch to the next octave before it adds, say in C, a Bb to the lower A note, and they are played together with a semitone interval.

Likewise a major seventh, and of course the sus4 or "eleventh" if it is "stretched out".

My problem with some chords, as those I've mentioned, is that unless you are playign the exact same chord, with the exact same voicing, there is a tremendous clash of a half step.

I have played many times with a young friend that plays otherwise excellent tele.

He invariably starts things like VInce Gill's 'Whenever you come around" with a large loud sus4.

I've always found that it's hard to play anything but an octave tonic note that "agrees with" what he's playing. I"ve tried to tell him to play the major chord, and maybe "twinkle" the sus 4 a little.

A couple of times I asked him to listen while I played a strong sus4 on the first beat of the I IV V, VI etc and see that it sounds like hell, and there's no way for any other instrument to "agree with" it.

Those people that chronically play 7ths on every chord, I've given up on.

I've been really busy today, and much more to do this evening before a long day tomorrow.

I still find the Ninth, or "Steely Dan" "2" to be the safest thing to lead with in uncertainty.

Others' mileage, may vary.

I guess King Sunny has plenty of albums so I don't have a lot to share with the "masses " about vicious dissonance..

I really don't have much room to talk about art Either. I don't have nearly as many showings as Mr Maplethorpe..

Thanks all for the input.



EJL

...thought it smelt vaguely of Troll

Ya think? I still wonder if Eric isn't some sort of NSA/CIA/Total Info Awareness/Karl Rove virus, floating around the ether, riling up the interweb denizens :>)

Very entertaining thread!

I'm suddenly detecting a faint aroma of a different kind... Sort of a political one... Drew...

Let's hope I'm either imagining it, or it goes away, as that's not the kind of scent we should be picking up on a forum about steel guitars.

Chords don't kill music... people do!

You know who ruined country music? That guy that came up with the 4th chord. I love that line, but I must say I don't neccesarily follow it. I was just working out "The Nearness Of You" by Hoagy Carmichael the other day and I think it's a fun challenge to try and find all them there chords on the steel. Staight country I like best played straight. The lead instruments can add passing tones that create more chords, but I really don't like it when the rhythm guitar and bass are "improving" a classic with more notes. Let's ban the demolish and demented chords.

Duane,

Sorry! Here...have a major 7th chord.


Drew