The Steel Guitar Forum

Posted: **15 May 2003 4:11 pm**

Yeah, Denny's info is really groundbreaking. I'm a "sequentially challenged" person Jesse so I'd love to see your charts if you could post or e-mail 'em.

Posted: **15 May 2003 4:21 pm**

Here is somethin' y'all might like ...

Dial in your tunin' (change open notes with +/-) ... pick a scale, mode, chord, etc. and let 'er rip.

Look no Hands

------------------

www.horseshoemagnets.com [This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 15 May 2003 at 05:36 PM.]

Posted: **15 May 2003 5:34 pm**

Wow Rick, that's pretty cool. When and how did you finds this place? Thanks...

Andy, I'll try and write out the mode charts with the intervals on Excell.

Posted: **15 May 2003 5:49 pm**

I saw this site awhile back and bookmarked it. After readin' Denny's lessons ... I remembered the site and thought it may fit in with this thread.

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 15 May 2003 at 07:44 PM.]

Posted: **15 May 2003 5:49 pm**

Thanks Rick.....

Posted: **15 May 2003 6:14 pm**

Here is the easy way of showing the charts:
<pre>
Ionian Major7/9
|6| |7|
|4| |5|
|9| |3|
|1| |9|
|6| |7|
|4| |5|

Dorian Minor7
|5 | |6|
|b3| |4|
|1 | |9|
|b7| |1|
|5 | |6|
|b3| |4|

Mixolydian Dom7
|9 | |3 |
|b7| |1 |
|5 | |13|
|4 | |5 |
|9 | |3 |
|b7| |1 |

Aolean Min7b6
|1 | |9 |
|b6| |b7|
|4 | |5 |
|b3| |4 |
|1 | |9 |
|b6| |b7|

Locrian Min7b5
|b7| |1 |
|b5| |b6|
|b3| |4 |
|b9| |b3|
|b7| |1 |
|b5| |b6|

Lydian Maj7+4
|3| |+4|
|1| |9 |
|6| |7 |
|5| |6 |
|3| |+4|
|1| |9 |

Phrygian Min7b6b9
|4 | |5 |
|b9| |b3|
|b7| |1 |
|b6| |b7|
|4 | |5 |
|b9| |b3|
</pre>
Just look at a bracket | | as 1 fret, so you can see we have a 3 fret chart with the intervals located in the outside frets(brackets). Take a C6 chart of a non pedal steel neck with all the chromatic notes printed on it, and locate where the
"1"(root note) in the mode you are looking up is located on the modal chart(what string) and where it is found on the master C6 chromatic neck. In the key of C major there are no sharps or flats, so find all the modes for C major. These are the root notes you are looking for:

1 = Ionian = C
2 = Dorian = D
3 = Phrygian =E
4 = Lydian = F
5 = Mixolydian = G
6 = Aolean(natural minor)= A
7 = Locrian = B

You will find all of these modes are all in the same 3 fret space on your neck, fret 5 to fret 7. Start by locating the basic major and minor triads etc. found in each mode and the substitutions will start to sound like they fit the 1,4,5 chord progression.
[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 21 May 2003 at 11:55 AM.]

Posted: **15 May 2003 7:43 pm**

Don't stop, guys! This is one of the most enlightening threads to come along in a while! I'm starting to comprehend how the modes can apply to improvisation over chord changes. How about a little more on how to apply this info to the chord changes themselves. Maybe some different ways to execute a I vi IV V7 (or any progression)and why. Thanks.

Posted: **16 May 2003 1:06 am**

Rick great site there. So fast and useful.
Jesse great work there too!

And a perfect fit for this MASSIF thread.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 16 May 2003 at 02:08 AM.]

Posted: **16 May 2003 5:46 am**

I like to use the tonic note on various strings to arrange everything.

For these whole step boxes (C6 tunin')....

Nut = From the tonic towards the nut
Bridge = From the tonic towards the bridge

<pre>
String 1&5 tonic ... "nut" = Locrian (7)
... "bridge" = Aeolian (6)

String 2&6 tonic ... "nut" = Myxolydian(5)
... "bridge" = Lydian (4)

String 3 tonic ... "nut" = Phyrigian (3)
... "bridge" = Dorian (2)

String 4 tonic ... "nut" = Dorian (2)
... "bridge" = Ionian (1)

</pre>

patterns

 Just joinin' in the fun" [This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 16 May 2003 at 07:00 AM.]

Posted: **16 May 2003 6:16 am**

One thing I really like to do is play in the key of E (4th fret) and combine Jerry Byrd's (Honky Tonkin) licks and positions with Denny's substitution positions along with the E Major blues scale. When going to the 4 chord(A), I stay at E6 and use Denny's major 4 chord "a perfect fourth up" from the one chord substitution(extensions 2 frets down) in yer 1,4,5 progression, only I play an A7 arpeggio sliding into other notes to and from the chord tones and it sounds real hick.

It's important to know that the underlining harmony is what you are using as a guide post with your runs etc. There are inversions of Denny's modal box's all over the neck, look for them and find patterns that you can interweave with every thing else, always being aware of the underlying chords.

Like I said before, chord arpeggios are a good place to start because those notes are always choice and correct. Jazz approaches are too deep a subject to get into here, but I would suggest "Mark Levine's improvising Jazz piano book" as the book to get if you want to know the meat and potatoes of modes and other useful jazz approaches that you can inject into you western swing playing etc. Notes is notes no matter what instrument you play and piano is a great way to see theory approaches even if you don't play piano, ya dig? When I study non pedal steel tab or record copy a steel song, I always try and see what the intervals are relative to the underlying chords of the song. You really start to understand someone's style this way. After awhile you don't have to think about it cause your on auto pilot when your playing.[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 16 May 2003 at 07:37 AM.]

Posted: **16 May 2003 6:33 am**

Yea Rick, that's a great way to organize the the other side of a modal box opposite from the side that has the root note in it, I'm gonna start looking at it that way as well. It just seems more arpeggio friendly from that perspective and those arps are one of the most important foundations to build everything off of. Thanks...

P.S. Here is a easy way to remember what string each mode has it's root note on and if it's extentions are found 2 frets up or down from the opposite side of the modal box that has the root note in it. I'm using word associations with 2 easy to remember phrase's.

There are 4 up extention modal box's with the first letter of each word in the phrase standing for one of 4 modes and strings 1,2,3 and 4 =

A = Aolean = root note/string 1
Lady = Lydian = root note/string 2
doesn't = Dorian = root note/string 3
interrupt = Ionian = root note/string 4

And there are 3 down extention modal box's with the first letter of each word in the phrase standing for one of 3 modes and strings 1,2 and 3 =

Let = Locrian = root/string 1
me = Mixolydian = root/string 2
party = Phrygian = root/string 3

C6 mantra:

4 Extentions up:
1 Aolean
2 Lydian
3 Dorian
4 Ionian

3 Extentions down:
1 Locrian
2 Mixolydian
3 Phrygian

This should help ya untill it all becomes second nature.

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 21 May 2003 at 11:58 AM.]

Posted: **19 May 2003 12:44 pm**

*Just a note to explain that the C6 mantra up above doesn't always have the same side first point of reference that Denny Turner uses on his modal box's. Mine is concerned with what side of the box has the root note in it as the main reference point and then secondary, considers which way the other side of the box extends, either up or down two frets from the root note. This is sometimes opposite of Denny's first point of reference found on his charts, which looks for the best large chord grip to represent a modal/chordal scale(regardles if it has the root note in it or not) "sometimes called a non root chord".

As Rick Aiello pointed out, it's easier I think to find any modal box position by it's root note, so don't get confused by Denny's approach and the purely root note approach, they are after the same thing. This mode stuff on steel is kinda complicated.

I stated up above a couple of post's that all the Modes for the key of C are found between the 5th and 7th frets. You also find that there are different named modal box's that share a common fret and set of intervals, but they all have the same root note i.e. Starting at the 14th fret and going towards the nut, root note C:
14 fret fret to 12 fret = C Lydian
12 fret to 10 fret = C Mixolydian
10 fret to 8 fret = C Aolian
8 fret to 6 fret = C Locrian

The squence then changes to this:
7 fret to 5 fret = C Ionian
5 fret to 3 fret = C Dorian
3 fret to 1 fret = C Phrygian

Then it goes back again to the first sequence:
2 fret to 0 fret = C lydian

As you can see this covers the whole neck, but how do you make music with this? Sorry, I'm still working on that!!!

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 21 May 2003 at 12:00 PM.]

Posted: **20 May 2003 5:31 am**

Jeez Rick, about the coolest things I've seen on the web in quite awhile was your new pickups, ...and then Jason's Hawaiian Steel; ....and now that neck wave spectrum analyzer you posted here. That's sucker's got more scales than a Gulf service station has flags on Grand Openin' Day! Thanks a mil for alluvum!

I'll post another message about the root, vs interval, vs signature chord navigation thang here in a bit.

ALOHA,
Denny T~

Posted: **20 May 2003 5:47 am**

Posted: **20 May 2003 6:56 am**

Jess and Terry,

I noticed a paragraph of Jesse's that kinda fits real good into the application and understanding of modal thinking applied over the chord changes:

One thing I really like to do is play in the key of E (4th fret) and combine Jerry Byrd's (Honky Tonkin) licks and positions with Denny's substitution positions along with the E Major blues scale. When going to the 4 chord(A), I stay at E6 and use Denny's major 4 chord "a perfect fourth up" from the one chord substitution(extensions 2 frets down) in yer 1,4,5 progression, only I play an A7 arpeggio sliding into other notes to and from the chord tones and it sounds real hick.

GREAT. That's how the modal subs iz 'sposed to work ....in my ear anyway! You got it!

Check it out:

Blues Major is in the E6 Mixolydian box MODE. Minor blues (Dorian)lays over just about anything, especially dom7/9 in the tonic which is what the E6 is again; AND the Dorian box is ALSO the IV7 box ...both STILL being the direct sub for the E6 box Mixolydian mode. That IV7 "extensions" fret which is also the Dorian signature chord fret, is what makes Dorian sound so remarkable when a Idom7/9 goes to the IV chord. Even if a Player has been standing on Dorian during the I7 chord, ...as soon as it goes to IV chord, the Dorian says / sound EXOTIC IV7/9 STUFF. Jr. Brown is a master of carefully using the "extensions" fret in the boxes where the "exotic" voicings reside that you don't often hear and therefore why they sound remarkable, ... not to mention that they're 9th voicings in the Major boxes. And what's happening when you stay in the IVMaj7 (E6) box for the IV change? Yer STILL hanging right there on the E6/7/9 box MODE. When you do the A7 arpeggio thang, you're back in the IV7 / IImin7 box subs for E6 again! IN MODE! "Everything" you describe is using the mode and it's notes in the E6 box! Were not the color of what you described doing so very important, a person could have vamped the E6 box (or any one of it's 6 sub boxes) through all the changes if they paid attention to the tone movement and note combo choices. But HOW did what you did create so much color? It's because by using the other boxes that substitute, you are able to access different harmony / chord / inversion voicings that are afforded the steel bar in different boxes even though the notes are the same or nearly the same, AND you get to use familiar licks congruent to certain boxes.

I am getting a big bang out of using licks I use for thinking in one box, and applying them to other substitute mode boxes. ALLOT of new stuff is coming out simply because in a different box the licks are being played at differnt harmony intervals of the same mode. It's actually starting to melt together more like different boxes for different voicings that the brain picks up on and converts to automatic pretty quickly. Using CMaj7/9 and G6(7) box licks for an Amin piece is a good example. Another example is that allot of the song Sleepwalk can be played through it's chord changes almost entirely in the IMaj7 / V6 box while using the VI Aolean signature chord fret for the IVmin voices (VI Aolean is the IV Dorian!). Another good example is using the Dorian signature chord fret as a "stem armature" around which MANY spanish guitar, blues minor, Dorian overlay and slide guitar licks reside with notes either side of the fret and lend to slurring up to or away from the fret; ...because Dorian overlays it's Mixolyian as nicely as it voices minor.

.......or sump'n like that.

Aloha,
DT~[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 20 May 2003 at 08:12 AM.]

Posted: **20 May 2003 12:19 pm**

Denny, I kind of understand it and I kind of don't. So to make sure I follow you, can you please answer the following questions.

1. What is the root note/fret# for the dorian box that lays over the 1/tonic chord E dom7 box at the 4th fret?

2. What is the root note/fret# for the dorian box that lays over the 4 chord A dom7 at the 9th fret?

I beleive the 7th fret notes are the 4 chords over lapping dorian and makes E dorian. This is what JB used on Honky Tonkin on the signature theme lick right? Both Peter Green and Santana made this approach famous in rock/blues! I see how this subs for the tonic dom7 chord. E dorian is interchangeable with E Blues/min pentatonic scales cause they share so many of the same notes. Holy smokes, I might have answered my own questions!

What I am not sure of, is what the root note would be for the Tonic E dom7 chords over lapping dorian? Would it be B dorian and if so why? Is it because B dorian's parent major scale is A major, the same parent major that E mixolydian comes from?

If I'm right about the 7th fret E dorian sub, I think that's pretty heavy. Thanks...

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 21 May 2003 at 07:26 PM.]

Posted: **20 May 2003 4:32 pm**

Denny, I think I answered my own questions correctly. Man, I'm wailing on my C6 steel now! I now can see where Dewitt Scott got some of his cool runs over certain chords from. I'm really relieved to feel like I'm finally starting to get to know the C6 neck inside and out. I can play, I can play!!!

Posted: **21 May 2003 12:59 am**

Yep Jesse, Denny has hit the ball real hard on this one.
And all this stuff just sittin there in front of you, jumps up and says :
`Hi honey, take me home tonight and let me cook you some chicken, for the next 20 years.
Which side of the bed you like?'
[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 21 May 2003 at 02:03 AM.]

Posted: **21 May 2003 2:47 am**

Jesse,

You DO have it; I just think you haven't quite yet reconciled some quite valid questions to realize WHY my system really is the shortcut that eliminates having to process allot of information and concepts that otherwise make modal orientation of substitution so complicated most musicians give up on it. So the trick for you as I see it is 2-fold: (1) TRUST my system to be the shortcut you will find it to be in the end, and; (2) Keep on searching for the very questions and answers you have been, ...which will provide the reinforcement that my system is valid as the shortcut.

Now in answering your questions (and please bear with me while I add basics for folks at different theory levels):

1. What is the root note/fret# for the dorian box that lays over the 1/tonic chord E dom7 box at the 4th fret?

We're lucky because you're asking for Dorian relative to our golden Homebase 6th chord (Mixolydian) box we're already at with the E6(7) box. The Dorian will ALWAYS be 3 frets up from the Homebase 6th chord whose root it is we want to turn into Dorian, ...E in this case. And of course 3 frets up from E gives us G Dorian signature chord (root on string 3) and since it's a minor the remaining "extensions" will be at "A6" fret (making it the same box as A7). So we're talking about using AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT MODE (Dorian) than E Mixolydian, as one CHANGE in mode / flavor to our digs in the key of E. And you did get it right; Dorian works because it is nigh identical to the Blues Minor. Tonic Dorian over tonic dom7/9 is more common in more styles of music than "Johnny B. Goode" licks! ....and it really squirts some NO2 into the pistons when the song goes to IV and the Dorian accentuates that A7/9 thang.

=================================

2. What is the root note/fret# for the dorian box that lays over the 4 chord A dom7 at the 9th fret?

Now you would have to qualify that question. If you're talking about Dorian in keeping close to the mode happenings of your Edom7 and Emin7 activity, then the Dorian is still E just like your first question WHICH IS THE SAME BOX AS A7. BUT if for some reason you just want to know where A Dorian is, it's STILL 3 frets up from the A6 root you're asking about changing from Mixolydian to Dorian. NOW, in the context of our discussion about working around the E6 box, A Dorian (Cmin7) would be a MODULATION of E Dorian up to a IV Dorian WHICH DON'T WORK TOO GOOD AT ALL because the E Dorian over E dom Major thang is working because E (tonic) Dorian is modal by itself through I, IV, V modulations; BUT if you modulate the minor over major thang with the chord change to IV, then the tones immediately start saying "something here ain't right" and changes the congruent mode context of TONIC modal tones, to a major/minor war of tones immediately apparant in the modulation of Dorian to IV.

==================================================

What I am not sure of, is what the root note would be for the Tonic E dom7 chords over lapping dorian? Would it be B dorian and if so why? Is it because B dorian's parent major scale is A major, the same parent major that E mixolydian comes from?

It depends upon what you're trying to do. If you're changing color by changing mode, then in the sense of E tonic it would be to change between E Mixolydian (E6 box) and E Dorian (A6 / Emin7 / etc box). BUT if you're looking for the Dorian with THE SAME MODE NOTES as the E6 Mixolydian box, then AMaj7 would indeed be the Mother Major7, making the substitution Dorian the B Dorian / Bmin7. HOLD IT; DON'T GET CONFUSED:
AMaj7 = Bmin7 = C#min7b6b9 = D(#4) = E7 = F#min7b6 = G#half-dim.
And guess what? THEY'RE ALL IN THE SAME BOX !!!!!!! THIS IS WHY IT MAKES NO SENSE TO HAVE TO KEEP UP WITH WHERE THE ROOT IS FOR MODES THAT ARE ALL DIRECT SUBS AND IN THE SAME BOX ANYWAY ! HOLD ON HOLD ON:

My system is NOT about finding what subs for ITSELF ... because everything that subs for each other are all in the same box. My system is about how to CHANGE a chord or scale from one mode to another, ... OR FIND the one you want by being able to navigate there instantly by a map of where it is relative to a chord / scale WE ALREADY KNOW such as the 6th chord or the Maj7. If I want to play Amin7, then I do so 3 frets up (bIII6 position) from A6 and apply the comically low number of minor rules to establish the scale box. If I want to play Adim(half) I do it at the bV6 position and apply the comically low number of minor rules to establish the scale box! If I'm a beginner and want to know where AMaj7 is, I now have a way to EASILY know it's located at the V6 and apply the comically low number of Major rules to establish the scale box.

--------------------------------

RELATED: The melody of the vast majority of songs are simply the notes of a single mode ... where the chords / rythm tones are doing the chord changing, ...and in popular music mostly just to establish a couple different ear views that by cultural habit are familiar cliche's that marketing, writers and the public cling to (BECAUSE THEY'RE MODALLY INTACT and leave lots of room to play allot of stuff that would otherwise clash with more chord definition of the mode). Break that mold and you get folks (epitomies) like Carlos Santana, Jeff Beck, Gary Gilmore etc. and the western swing greats who were not afraid to stretch the cliche's with more chords for the melody than I, IV, V. Bob Wills' boyz could be really cuttin head, but when the sanger stepped up to the mike to continue with the melody, it was right back into mode while the band did their chord changes, and fills applied around EITHER the mode or the chord changes. When we play Lead we constantly make our musical decisions in both accompanyment and solo based upon whether we're gonna voice the mode or going to voice the chord changes ... and there is a BIG difference which is quite apparant once we simply realize it and start to notice it. It is that recognition, even if we don't conciously know it, that takes us from playing "Wipe Out" Lead to more fluid movements either with the melody mode or around the chord changes.

--------------------------------

Uh-oh! Is that smell of burning rubber coming from my ears or mustache?

Speaking of which; I DID catch your Puna trichomes Brah; & You bet.

ALOHA,
DT~

Geetar Bedlam[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 23 May 2003 at 02:14 AM.]

Posted: **21 May 2003 3:26 am**

Hey Dave,

More important than the co-modes:

`Hi honey, take me home tonight and let me cook you some chicken, for the next 20 years. Which side of the bed you like?'

If'n a guy ain't already bridled in shiny vinyl, ...then that "20 years" stuff orta last just about long enough for her to whip up some ham'n eggs and biscuits'n red-eye gravy the next morning, ...just before the cab shows up. She can face the TV for one night!

Huh?

ALOHA,
DT~

Posted: **21 May 2003 5:20 am**

OK Jess, here's the scoop on why the boxes template is fixed and static, ... and why that same template remains the same but moves up or down scale relative to whatever root we choose for it; And why it is the ONLY template for the modes' full scales:

First of all, I DIDN'T choose where to put the mode boxes; They are simply where they are on a sliding template due to their math, AND ARE IN NO OTHER TEMPLATE FORM. If I read your words right, you are mistaken about them being all over the neck relative to a given root; They aren't. SMALL PORTIONS are around the neck in different places, but the full mode boxes template exists ONLY in one place for each root you choose for it ... such as the template boxes that exist in only one place on the neck in my C6 relative chart (leave this chart page open to refer back to). Of course the neck IS chock-full of boxes "all over the place" for all roots because the template overlaps 11 times at each 1 fret movement up/down the neck to cover the entire neck for all 11 possible roots; But as a navigation template it never changes and only exists where it occurs relative to whatever root note it's applies to (unless you drop it on the floor and it lands upside down!

). Here's why:

Let's use Nashville / Berkeley numbers so we don't have to deal with 12 alpha root identifiers. Now let's look at the equivilant modes for each mode step:

IMaj7 = IImin7 = IIImin7b6b9 = IV#4 = V6(7) = VImin7b6 = VIIdim(half).

All the above scales / chords are IN THE SAME BOX.

With the C6 tuning we know that CMaj7 is in the G6 box. A Given. BUT PICTURE THE POSITION OF THE ENTIRE BOX between G6 and F6. CMaj7 Ionian is in there as well as Dmin7 Dorian, Emin7b6b9 Phrygian, etc etc etc.

Now, we can also see that if we want to make C a Cmin7 and utilize it's scale box, then the Maj7 in the box has to be down-scale 1 whole step; So the box has got to be moved downward 1 whole step so that BbMaj7 Ionian will give us Cmin7 Dorian in the box. So moving the box down a whole step the box is now located between Eb6 and F6.

Now, if we want to play C in a Cmin7b6b9 Phrygian box, then the Maj7 Ionian in the box has got to be 2 whole steps below Cmin7b6b9 Phrygian in the box, so we move the box down another whole step to where the box is between Db6 and Eb6.

NOW, ...to play C as a Lydian, the box has got to go down only a half step more to between C6 and D6. Now that box overlaps the Phrygian box by 1 fret.

Moving our C mode on upscale with the box moving it's Maj7 downscale, we next want C to be C7(6) Mixolydian so the box moves down another whole step to be between Bb6 and C6.

Continuing the box downscale for it's Maj7 to give us Cmin7b6 Aeolean, the box is now located between Ab6 and Bb6.

Moving the box downward 1 more whole step to give us Cdim Locrian, the box is located between Gb6 and Ab6.

Only 1 more half step to wind back up at Ionian and sure nuff, a half step more puts the Ionian box right back between F6 and G6.

NOW all we got to know is that the minor signature chords are on the downscale end of the boxes, and the Major signature chords are on the upscale end of the boxes.

VOILA .... The terrible mystery of modes solved ...and layed out right there so all we have to do is relate them by Nashville / Berkeley roman-numeral number relationships! And about 3 years developing this system has proved to me that relating it all the the signature chord positions is THE shorcut.

--------------------------------------

A VERY GOOD visual exercise is to go to the NoHands neck-notes chart-engine Rick posted several messages previous, ... tune up the neck there to C6, and then start with the Ionian mode in the menu and watch THE ONLY PLACE the dots will all line up straight bar in a box is at F6 / G6. Now select Dorian from the menu and watch ALL the dots and the box move down 2 frets. Click on Phrygian and all the dots and box will move another 2 frets downward. Click on Lydian and all the dots will move down only 1 fret. And by the time you get back to Ionian, you will see the boxes arranged just like my system AND IN NO OTHER PATTERN. Of course if you choose another root than C, the dots will line up relative to the new rootMaj7 BUT IN THE IDENTICAL TEMPLATE. etc etc etc etc.

---------------------------------------

YeeeeHawww......

...... we got collards'n hot buttered cornbread now! Stick another dollar in the jukebox and let's cut some rug.

ALOHA,
DT~
cr2003wdt
[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 23 May 2003 at 02:15 AM.]

Posted: **21 May 2003 6:18 am**

I tend to get confused when thinking in terms of "moving a box x# of frets" ... instead I work off the tonic (1) note of the chord as I said in a previous reply.

It seems that we are describing the same thing ....

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>

For these whole step boxes (C6 tunin')....

Nut = From the tonic towards the nut
Bridge = From the tonic towards the bridge

<pre>
String 1&5 tonic ... "nut" = Locrian (7)
... "bridge" = Aeolian (6)

String 2&6 tonic ... "nut" = Myxolydian(5)
... "bridge" = Lydian (4)

String 3 tonic ... "nut" = Phyrigian (3)
... "bridge" = Dorian (2)

String 4 tonic ... "nut" = Dorian (2)
... "bridge" = Ionian (1)

</pre>
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you see any disadvantages with this way of thinkin' ?

Lately all I have been playin' "out" is bluegrass (yes in C6) ... with chords flyin' around "a million miles/hour" ... so when they throw me a solo ... I usually base it on the Ionian Mode and try and pause/end on a good note (and hope for the best)

...

Any suggestions for "faking" a break/fill etc. if you know the key ... but the changes are being fired by a machine gun"

???

PS: Denny... a hint from someone who is dyslexic. I have had to edit about every post I've ever made ... if you highlght the "edit info" at the bottom of the message .... and delete it prior to re-submitting ... you end up with only one "edited by ... " message.

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 21 May 2003 at 08:37 AM.]

Posted: **21 May 2003 6:52 am**

Denny, thanks for all that info, I'm getting real clear on it now. I do think your system is the best I've seen for non pedal steel and have proved to myself that it is correct. You have to remember that I play Sax and guitar in all styles and know allot of theory. The steel is kinda inside out here and there as far as pulling notes out of them.

Your post from 20 May, 2003 07:56, kind of threw me because I misunderstood your sentence:

"Minor blues dorian lays over just about anything, especially dom7/9 in the tonic which is what E6 is again: And the dorian box is also the IV box..."

I thought you were saying there was an E dorian box that layed right on top of the same frets as the tonic dom7(4th fret), but you were talking about the dorian 3 frets up at the 7th fret (E dorian). Got it, cool!

The C6 non pedal steel is a trip in that if your a guitar player and play modes on the guitar neck in which the order of the modes go up in pitch/frets, the opposite is true of the steel which is like you are looking at the neck through a mirror reflection and it goes down in the order of the modes while the guitar and everything else goes up, and the connected steel modes going up and down the neck all have the same root note. This is some kind of crazy math one has to get used to. Heck, it sounds confusing to me just to read what I just wrote!

By the way "Jimmie Vaughn" uses the Dom7 tonic/Dorian 3 frets up approach on non pedal steel when playing blues just like you Denny, it's so cool. Thanks a million for everything...

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 21 May 2003 at 11:34 PM.]

Posted: **21 May 2003 11:21 am**

Man this is good stuff! Thanks to Andy,David, Rick, John, Jesse and everyone else that has contributed to this thread. Thank you Denny for getting on the Forum and clarifying some points. I appreciate you including the basics for us less advanced students of non pedal. Now if I could just get you to put together a correspondence course for C6 non pedal steel guitar instruction. Today's technology allows us to share sound, print, and video files almost instantly. If you come up with something, I'm in! Mahalo, brother[This message was edited by Terry Farmer on 21 May 2003 at 12:27 PM.]

Posted: **21 May 2003 11:21 am**

Rick, I'm using Denny's large chord grip point of reference to grab the quick chord and I'm using the root note point of reference for arpeggios/scales and outside tones found in the modal box. I also have scales that start on low strings and travel up the neck and up the strings by octaves/frets that have nothing to do with the modal box's per-say.

For bluegrass I would look for key centers and if it modulates or stays in the same key. I would use the major blues scale with the same root as the key of the moment instead of the major scale(sounds more country bumpkin). For turn arounds you could out line the chords in the last measure. You know, you can play three different major blues scales that each have the same root as the 1,4 and 5 chords in a key and sound real hick. Play the major blues scale that corresponds to it's major chord i.e.
E major or dom7 chord = E blues scale
A major or dom7 chord = A blues scale
B major or dom7 chord = B blues scale

You could combine the major blues scale and all the chord arpeggios found in a key over a 3 fret key area and sound pretty good without having to jump around much.

"Steve Kaufman's four-hour Bluegrass Workout For all Intruments" has 4 CD's and all the heads to allot of well known songs, so you can learn the head and work out solo/turn around stuff.

Thanks for the edit button tip, works great![This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 22 May 2003 at 07:48 AM.]

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