The Steel Guitar Forum

Find what's comfortable for you, and stay with it as long as it doesn't have any negative effects.

Donny flat nails it. And my hand/arm position is close to what I use when I write as well - relaxed and natural.

Why people seem to think I'm having "problems" with playing/blocking is a bit befuddling. As I explained it, for what I do my blocking is just fine - I was interested to see what other thoughts were out there, being always willing to try different things - to a point. Most of the suggestions were things I've tried before and which, as Donny notes, weren't comfortable and didn't work - for ME.

Bill, you mention me making it harder than it should be - yet when I look at YOUR hand I think exactly the same thing in reverse - the cramped, odd hand position and the picks in a completely distorted bend. It looks unlike most others I've seen as well (not that I've seen THAT many - but still, it looks unusual to me). Don't get bent out of shape (pun intended ) - I'm just saying that the same rule holds true for everyone - and that is that there are NO fixed rules, and with any skill/luck at all you find what works for you.

Any 6-strings pick with the rounded corner of a pick? I do - I haven't used the pointed end since I was about 14. Why? Because I find it gives me better control, MUCH better dynamics and (when I want it) more speed. If you use the pointed end - you're wrong.

Just kidding....

I know there are players who say "but Lloyd Green does this" or "Jeff Newman said this is the *right* way" or "Joe Wright is the only one to pay attention to" etc etc. Heck, they're ALL right...as long as they don't tell everyone else other methods are "wrong". I guess I really don't need to post those and pics later, as the meaning of them has pretty much gotten lost in the plethora of "correct" methodology.

Thanks Donny - for posting the reality check.

Now I need to think about whether to keep my right foot on pedal 7....or 8...or balanced between them....except I need to pop over to 6 sometimes...or 5&6 for a diminished chord...

....whoops. I totally forgot I have to use a volume pedal. Dang. Now what?

Jim, you DO realize that your right-hand ring and pinky fingers look just like a banjo player's? The two fingers resting on the head, at the bridge...
AND I'LL NEVER FORGIVE YOU!!!!

Are you guys seeing pictures I'm not? I've seen only two pictures of Jim's hand, and the pinky is completely hidden from view in both of them. I suppose you could be deducing where his pinky must be, but when he says it's bent and inflexible due to injuries it would seem to make assumptions about its position harder to make.

10 points - Brint!

Actually, Steve has X-Ray vision. Keep your wives away from him....

James, I was trying to not word things so much as a problem, which was why I did clarify several times that I was just investigating methodoilogy to see if any of my observations were skewed somehow - but I found I was pretty close. The "degree" stuff threw me off at first, but once that was clear there were no confusing issues.

It does seem even in this thread that there are innumerable methods of just palm blocking, at several angles with different grips, picking positions, etc.

I think Donny really summed it up - essentially saying "if you can make it work for you, it's right".

The only things that I found a little distressing were claims that oparticular methods were "right" or "wrong", or that I (or anyone else) was "doing things the hard way". Moving the bar in and out isn't "right" - it's a method that works for some players. Jeff Newman wasn't "right" - he had HIS method, and it works for some players, not for others. Sneaky's copedent and general style is a horrible mistake for most traditional steel players, but the easiest steel setup in the world to learn for others.

If your intonation is reasonably good and you're musically creative, "bad" would be a subjective judgement of your music but has no place as a judgement of your method IMO.

Sidebar - I dumped Joe Wright's "Right Hand" video to my iPod last night and watched it today. He doesn't spend more than 60 seconds on palm blocking, and doesn't "teach" it - he shows how it works with his precise picking method, and under the assumption you already know how to do it. I guess he, as an example, doesn't really extol the virtues of palm blocking much at all. Is he wrong? Should he teach it? Does it throw inexperienced players off? Just some thoughts to ponder.

Next I'll watch the left hand one again and see if that in-and-out motion is used (or blocking methods show up). I don't recall the motion - and is there a term for that...I still have no idea what to call it - being stressed, but I have not watched that video as much since I already had dobro/lapsteel experience and had other fish to fry to get up to speed quickly.

For reference...maybe a better pic of my funky pinky:

James Morehead wrote:...and to toughen up through discomfort, then you find it becomes easy. I don't mean hurt yourself, but press yourself a little to make the moves necessary to play a pedal steel guitar. Your left leg ever "burn" and cramp up playing your a&B pedal? That's not very "comfortable", is it. So get a wrench and take them off. Now your comfortable again, right. Or tough it out, get in shape and deal with it.

The problem is that "toughening up" (as you call it) could cause some physical problems (such as carpal tunnel syndrome) much later down the line. Learning to play a musical instrument is often a challenge, but it shouldn't be painful.

And no, my left leg never burned or cramped up, even when playing for 10 hours. It's silly to even mention something like taking off pedals to reduce pain when you could adjust them for a longer throw, and an easier action.

"Pushing past the pain" has led some otherwise very healthy joggers to mid-life knee replacements. Pain is the body's way of telling you something is wrong, or that something you're doing is wrong. If you ignore what your body is trying to tell you, it may come back to haunt you later in life.

When you are learning new techniques, it maybe uncomfortable to do the moves.

James, I guess I'm reading the same thing as Donny - that learning new stuff might be painful....and I do not agree with that methodology, nor do most orthopedic surgeons. Some muscle soreness from new, repetitive motions might be expected - but anything "cramping" or that causes pressure points is absolutely to be avoided. Unfortunately, I have a couple orthros I see regularly for back and knee problems and it's stresses over and over to NEVER use unnatural movements - that's what gets those doctors more clients.

As an example, I've tried what I call the "claw" hand position - it cramps my wrist, creates a tightness in a forearm muscle/tendon structure and creates pain pressure points from the abnormal thumb stretch.

Jeff Newman may have said it was right - but from a kinesiology standpoint it's totally wrong.

Jeff Newman may have said it was right - but from a kinesiology standpoint it's totally wrong.

Jim, surely you meant to add "for me".

It's hard to say how much discomfort at the start of learning a new body movement is normal or acceptable. If I had stopped trying to rock my foot between the A and B pedals because of the discomfort, and sometimes pain, it caused in my ankle at first, I'd never have been able to play E9th. The discomfort went away, and I've been playing E9th for 23 years, none the worse for wear.

Brint, correct - I thought it was fairly obvious, but I guess I could have added "for me".

I'm not accusing you of trying to do that, but remember that a lot of people read this and they can't tell what you are basing your advice on.

I've generally posted disclaimers throughout this thread about certain techniques being absolutely correct for SOME players, and that the ones that work for me are just that - things that work for me, which I think in a large part is due to my hand configuration.

I've also been (I hope) completely respectful of other opinions regarding methods - as long as they were opinions and not stated as absolutes. I seem to recall thanking...more than once...others for their input and advice.

As far as soft-tissue soreness, I think I fairly clearly talked about that being normal; but soreness from strain, cramping, and pressure-point pain are NOT normal and IMO any player who experiences anything more than mild soreness from the new application of muscle groups should stop and figure out why before causing damage.

As far as other people reading this thread and perhaps thinking "maybe those methods many players talk about as the ONLY way to play aren't as etched in stone as I thought" - good. Because some of those players may be struggling with physical situations that cause them to continually stumble through things while trying to play the "right" way ("thousands of players do it this way - and you need to as well")...or the "right" way may just not work for them for some other reason.

The point is, as Donny has also mentioned, is that there is no "right" way. There are methods that are more popular than others, and many reasons for that, ranging from the fact that they actually work well for some (not all) players to players blindly doing whatever (fill in the name of a name player or teacher) says they should.

In my case, I was looking for examples of different ways of palm blocking in particular to see if there was some method that I had missed. I've discovered that the methods posted are pretty much all slight variations on examples I've seen/tried before, leading me to the conclusion that my way of working within my own physical limitations is perfectly OK.

So if that contorted "claw" position and 90-degree bends of your fingerpicks works for you, great. But if it *doesn't* seem to be working for you (and not giving up after a day, but trying for a while as I did), maybe now you'll feel free to try a different array of blocking/picking methods.

The only "rule" should be to implement whatever methods work for YOU. It's not "reinventing the wheel" - because the "normal" methods may well work for most players. But a player who is just beating his head against the wall with "normal" methods should not feel intimidated about trying other approaches.

That's true in my case - The Newman hand position and E9 tuning both completely frustrated me. When I went back to my "normal" fingerpicking and decided to try Sneaky's B6 copedent on a whim, it was easier, more logical, more comfortable, and allowed me to accelerate my learning even though NO books, tapes, videos etc. are available.

But I still was interested in seeing if there were any blocking techniques I hadn't already tried...and there really weren't.

Duane, you completely misread my posts. I've tried to stress that some of these methods may be the best thing for some players, traditional players, etc...and that I'm 1) NOT a traditional player, and 2) dealing with a physical situation that makes certain hand configurations unworkable. I *have* said that if my posts make some players at least consider that other options may work just as well, if not better, for them, then I feel that's a good thing.

But you've extrapolated the notion that "Jim Sliff is saying don't use the Newman method", essentially. That's wrong. I've said (in the case of looking at Bill's pic) if it works for him, great.

From a completely personal viewpoint, however, if I was examining a course and the writer told me his method would be uncomfortable, weird, etc etc for a few weeks - my supposition would be that his method is not very practical nor beneficial. You might *end up* a good player - with a permanently contorted hand position when you play. Heck, that could even be a marketing ploy - "how to identify a Newman grad in one picture".

I'm joshing a bit - but IMO oddly-contorted hand positions are not beneficial when plenty of good players seem to have been able to make their way without twisting their hands and picks in odd ways. Just because one guy taught that way doesn't make it right for everyone - and who are you, Duane, to say NOT using that method is the "road to mediocrity"? The entire idea that someone posting a negative view of a particular method will ruin a frustrated beginner's steel playing is ridiculous.

Looks to me like another case of some steel hero not being followed by someone (regardless of the reasons - read the posts again Duane, if you actually read them completely at all) and fans starting to drop out of the sky to say "but - you can't say THAT about HIM!".

It just never seems to change. Things actually seemed interesting and cordial until that last post.

I have stated that there are things that do not work *for me*. Also, that I did try them for reasonable periods of time. If they work for you, wonderful. But if there are others that maybe have some of the same hand quirks as I do, or just find certain methods not workable for whatever reason, hopefully they'll realize there IS no "right" way except the one that works for each player.

Go back and read Donny's post.

Remember when you first started on guitar, how akward it was and how the stings hurt the fingers? Now it's like second nature.

No. It never did hurt, except for some initial fingertip soreness. Nothing ever felt unnatural or uncomfortable at all. Not until 40 years later when arthritis set in.

There are also those that are about to give up, and then it all comes alive very shortly thereafter, and it doesn't hurt, or cramp up you hand, or give you carpal tunnel - if it did, no one anywhere would do it. They'd be out of business and in outpatient surgery in six months if that really hurt your hand

And not everyone who types suffers from carpal tunnel, nor does every person working on an assembly line suffer from repetitive stress disorder. But if someone is having continued problems AFTER an extended period, it's time to look in other directions IMO. And again, Duane - personally, I didn't try any of those methods for just a couple of days, or a week - I ran with them for quite a while and realized it was counter-productive.

and once again, I'm not saying you are trying to do this

the last thing they need right now is Jim Sliff inadvertently saying stuff on the forum that tips the balance toward giving it up, and putting them on the path to mediocrity.

Need I say more about your comments. Nice try.

I've seen how literal people take things, especially the advice of some "pros". If you say that "so-and-so says the picking hand should be at a 45-degree angle to the strings", I can guarantee you there's some newbie out there tearing his desk apart looking for a protractor!

I'm just saying "use common sense". Newman's way doesn't work for everyone, nor does Buddy's or Paul's. Draw from all sources, and then make your own decisions. I don't personally care how hold your pick hand, as long as you play well.

I tell you what - you could try holding the bar at each end with your thumb and index finger, and put your picks on backwards like big extensions of your fingernails and I guess it wouldn't really be *wrong*

Duane, your meaning was clear, and backpedaling makes it look worse. You contradicted yourself and either need to admit it or make it disappear...it's sillly.

As far as

For one thing, you ought to find a specialist and see if he/she says that the standard palm-blocking method is improper

I happened to show that pic of Bill's hand to my pain specialist (who I see monthly, and had an appointment today) and he laughed and said "give the guy my number"...the serious point being he said it put undue strain on several muscle groups and warned me not to try it. I told him I already had and preferred a more natural position, and his comment was that a "natural feeling position" is exactly what should be employed - that any thing that causes strain outside of normal excercise strain is very unwise.

Personally, I'll go with the physician's opinion.

As far as what works for other people, I have not noticed in video or photos a large number of contorted hand positions like in Bill's pic, which is being represented here as the "Newman" position. Watching Joe Wright's videos the past couple of days, he not only plays in a relaxed hand position but stresses that oddly strained positions are counter-productive and dangerous. So yes - as far as that particularly contorted postition, my personal opinion is that it should not be used, and that's been backed up *after* I made that decision by an M.D. and the Joe Wright stuff I hadn't closely watched before.

You don't have to agree, but saying I'm "inadvertantly" leading players in the wrong direction is insulting and narrow-minded - also in my opinion.

Would that imply you conversely think that contorted hand positions are right, and relaxed ones are wrong? I don't think so - but that's how you're constructing the logic. You say Newman's teachings are solid and that I don't have a right to imply they aren't - but I can base my opinions on physical evidence (photos), reports of non-excercise related pain, and give you reams of sports medicine references - you say the methods are "solid"....but offer no backup. I assume it would be "lots of players have successfully used this method" or something unclear along that line, which is also totally unrelated to my comments regarding the specifics.

as you've been describing your own technique, with "No books, tapes, videos etc."

Again, misdirection - that had nothing to do with blocking or technique...it had to do with using a particular copedent. DO you actually read the stuff you argue about?

but the vast majority of people can make it happen - maybe you are indeed one of them and just don't know it. I think I can also say that many people, if not most, feel just as you did at first.

The first statement is a generalization, and I'd love to see the your qualifications for making it. Have you taught or interviewed the "vast majority"? OR is this another case where it's OK to make blatant assumptions if your approach is somewhat traditional - THAT makes you right? And as far as what you THINK you can also say, first explain how you think I feel - because I can already teel you have no clue since most of your statements aren't based on what's been said in this thread or most of what I've said on this subject. And I haven't even talked about how I felt "at first" - Duane, you're coming from so many directions it's total chaos.

You want arguments against your guru's methods to be based on evidence, but don't offer any of your own, and maybe figure if you throw enough **** against the wall some of it will stick - problem is you're not even hitting the wall. All I'm reading is a late-entry attempt to support Jeff Newman - who isn't the subject of the thread (his stuff was a sidebar)...at least until you made him the subject.

Like I said, some things never change. A perfectly rational discussion wiped out by a latecomer to the thread who decides some hero's toes are being tread upon. Same ol' thing. The perfect threadkiller, used in the same kind of situation repeatedly. I enjoyed the discussion before it degraded into an attack on my "inadvertant" influence on newbies. It's become ridiculous.

-out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaOIM_M-oqo IMO this is a great example of picking; however I've observed over the years that a lot of musicians wear the picks in a way that suits them, different attitude of the hand etc. I hope that address works ok; it's Gary Gimble picking the heck out of an Emmons, PP. I have the utmost respect for Gary, he practices hours on end, wears his pick differently that I do mine but I also try to block like this. IMO, it's a great way to get a great sound.

Jim, your now quoting Joe wright??? a few months ago you were slamming him in the dirt. Make up your mind!

As noted, comments on a video just watched, and only in regards to hand position and comments on same.

JAmes, I had no burr in my saddle - A few folks seemed to think I did, but I was commenting on hand positions that were unworkable - for me. Repeat - for me. Which was repeated several times.

As far as the posted apologies for my insults to Fran Newman (who I never mentioned) or comments that it's not fair to review materials put out by someone who's no longer here, I think those are quite invalid. If someone publishes instructional materials, they should expect good and bad comments. It goes with the territory. When I write a magazine article, I expect there may be dissenting - or supportive - letters in the following months. If I was afraid of that or needed someone to fight for me (comments on reviews are IMO tedious and simply argumentative) I wouldn't write.

This discussion involved pick blocking, palm blocking, hand positions (both certain "taught" ones and natural ones) and comments on a couple of sets of instructional materials based on comments from those who have used them. It seems my "controversial" point is commenting that a specifically contorted hand position (described by the "teacher" as feeling "weird") did not work for me after trying it for an extended period.

IS that controversial? Only if folks feel the need to jump in and essentially state "you are not entitled to say that about The Teacher" and then make an absurd statement connecting my "review" with ruiniung the playing of struggling beginners by causing them to give up.

Please. I've never seen such a mess of statements held together by chewing gum and wire - except for other discussions or "revered" teachers/players. The leg-humping is in full swing.

As far as Duanes "check-in time", sure, he's as welcome as anyone - but if he drops in not to discuss the "meat" of the subject but instead only to point at a poster and make accusations, he's going to take some shots - he painted the target.

James, I do thank you for your line mentioning that newbies with common sense would "get it" - but I kind of resent the apologies you posted, which are based on my statements (not the veiled "some people's", which was really uneccessary and just adds to the furor - ifyou're going to make a point, come out and say it). I don't agree with them and do not feel any such apology is warranted.

If, James, you think I have a "win at any cost" attitude, I'm honestly confused since there is nothing to win or lose here. In my case, I was looking for info I might have missed, and thanked people for their suggestions and input - yours included - and tried every one to see if it varied somehow from what I had used in the past. I posted my opinions and then a doctor's (if somebody REALLY needs the name for pain management purposes I'll be happy to pass it along - otherwise, no) regarding what was commented on as "the correct hand position" (if not in those exact terms, the inference was certainly there based on comments following the piture). Where's the "win/lose" there?

"but when you open your pie hole about someone we respect"

Comment - and I'm being argumentative? Second comment - who is "we", and why do you speak for them?

"Guru" (from the Sikh) - basically a teacher, with an upper level of "enlightener". I've never thought it a negative term, using it to describe revered teachers in day-to-day communications. Newman would appear to be a "revered teacher" or "enlightener" to many from my perspective. To be called a "guru" usually means you have something on the ball...it's not a negative. HE certainly has a lot of followers and obviously isn't "wrong". However, "guru" status doesn't offer protection from reviews nor does it mean one is perfect.

we respect your right to do so. But allow us the same, and stop the insults, please.

Not when you eliminate certain people from being reviewed. You can't have it both ways. The thing is, I've negatively commented on a technique or two, while others instead instigatecomments on me personally.

Sorry James - I'm not the one instigating the insults, and if I posted any "insults" at all I apologize - but they were in defense of my having as much right to say "that position doesn't work for me and there are some things wrong physiologically (roughly)" as others have to say "it works for me.

But telling me I can't comment on a teacher's materials because of who he was, or who his wife is, doesn't fly.

But James, probably the most important thing now is - I hope were still friends. We may not agree on these things, but that's (hopefully) small stuff.

Well, I gotta run - our youngest needs me to fill his "pie hole".

Well, I think I learned something here. I guess I still classify as a newbie - I have been working on it for about a year and a half. I have been trying to play with my right hand little finger and ring finger curled up into my palm.

After reading this thread and looking at the clips, I decided to try it with my fingers sticking out. Withing five minutes I was blocking much, much better. My little finger sticks more or less straight out. My hand is a little flatter than the recommended 45 degrees, but the ease of blocking is like night and day.

Once more the forum proves its value to me.