The Steel Guitar Forum

whats difficult (and exciting) for me as a guitarist coming to pedal steel is these boxes often overlap and as Brint and Bob said are more three dimensional than our 2-D guitar boxes. Jaydee Maness said he saw the strings on a psg as "hills and valleys" and its just now dawning on me what he may have meant by that. Im used to seeing and thinking in terms of a 2-D plane, not a 3-D landscape..heehee.

But teachers and writers of instructional material, take note. It would be very useful to us no theory knowing guitarists coming to pedal steel to have a simple blues box, no pedals, laid out for us early on in a way we are used to seeing. You guys often talk about what it would take to bring more interest to the instrument and bring people into it...that would help IMHO since many new psg players are guitarists.

once you have that launch pad you can show how the other boxes using pedals overlap and intertwine, and how the blues scales are used in country licks if you are insisting on keeping it country

Maybe if Jim or Ben could point to a good graphic example of the blues and pentatonic boxes somewhere online, I (or someone else) could attempt to draw up a similarly styled example of those same notes on steel...

I don't see why it should be too difficult.

I realize that this is a very simple idea, and perhaps it's come up already. Just a thought.

I tried to lay it out for psg in a way guitarists would understand a couple posts back but I googled "blues box" images and this was on the first page.


we dont even need the note names...in fact they distract me...just the dots on the fretboard..haha.
man, we guitarists really need to be spoonfed i guess.

now if you tilt that graphic at 45 degrees in space and were using a CAD program (do they even still use CAD for 3-D graphic??) you could then show the pedal and lever changes also

Actually, the way I was taught guitar, that is only part of the pentatonic box. If you learn the box from the 2nd fret to the 15th fret (in they key sig you used as an example), there is a lot more to choose from than that limited position. I actually think J Fabian hit the bull’s eye on this video. He basically explained that a G chord no pedals on the 3 rd fret is the same as G chord E form bar chord on the 6 string. Then he shows that by pushing the A&B pedals, you end up with a C chord A form as it relates to 6 string. By moving that up 2 frets, it’s the same as moving the C chord A form up 2 on the 6 string. You get the V chord. Likewise, there is a major scale, pentatonic box, arpeggios, 7 modes and so on right there in those positions. I think realistically, people want "patterns" because it beats actually learning how the instrument works and why. That is why so many 6 string players have such a hard time with steel, all they really did was learn a bunch of patterns on the neck and have no idea how they relate to the associated chord positions and scale degrees. For a long time, I was caught in that trap as a 6 string player myself. Then I applied the time to learn what I should have learned in the first place. That is also why they don’t understand how the steel is similar to 6 string, because they really don’t fully understand the 6 string, they just know patterns and they get used to using them without knowing how and why they work. When I play a 6 string solo, I think totally in terms of what scale or mode I am in and where I need to be when I end the solo. If you don’t understand this, how do you add tension to the solo and force it to resolve to proper chord? Here is an example of how one can look at a pentatonic box that is less limiting than the above example. Of course you can move on past 15...James

yes the box in that shot is just one "position", probably the most common one for a six stringer. baby steps...one position first, then the whole neck.

When I play a 6 string solo, I think totally in terms of what scale or mode I am in and where I need to be when I end the solo.

I dont and no other guitarist i know does either.

If you don’t understand this, how do you add tension to the solo and force it to resolve to proper chord?

-I dont know how i do it, I just do it. I dont have to understand that water is two parts hydrogen one part oxygen in order to wash the dishes. i dont have to know that a note is an "A" note or that its the fifth voidoid doo diddley of a pentamabobic scale to play it. I dont have to know any of that stuff...dont get me wrong I wish i did, it couldnt hurt me, but I dont and i dont need to know it in order to be a great guitarist.

what the heck is a "C chord A form"?

I did not plow through the posts maybe it was mentioned but if you lower 9 D to C# and 2 D# to C# you have a pentonic without moving the bar. Thats a pretty easy pocket to memorize.

And, by combining that with E-D#, G#-A, and B-A# there are pentatonics horizontally on various other frets.

You can of course also use the AB pedals and D, F levers working horizontally.

The next step is tie them all together and be able to work both horizontally and diagonally. Kind of like what James Sisson is showing on guitar. BTW James I later saw you are excluding fret 1, edited the post but added the above to add to the bigger point you are making (I think).

Thank you Scott. James

Sorry Ben, I didn't see your question. I can agree to disagree on what you said, but my intention was not to offend you. Your obviously a great player and didn't need any knowledge to obtain that status. I am no one to argue with sucess. Here is a link that will answer your question. ....James

http://www.marksmart.net/instruments/stick/caged.html

Hey James, no offense taken and I certainly hope none was given by myself. i dont know about being a great player and i certainly know very little about "success". I dont pretend to have any "status" at all. I do have alot of experience playing in bands that have sold cd's and toured, and I guess my experience in doing so, and the experience of the other guitarists Ive met along the way, has been different than yours. You can certainly use knowledge in anything you do, knowledge is good, my contention was simply that in this case specific knowledge wasnt an absolute requirement, an aide surely , but not a requirement. thats just one goofs opinion tho.

Ben, I have always wondered this about players who say they dont know about positions and scales. If you are playing a song in G and you’re playing a solo and the song goes to a G7 chord before it moves to C, how do you think about that in terms of what to play on your solo? I am talking about in a Jam situation, not a song that you have had time to learn note for note. I look at as playing a mixolydian mode, or a G scale with a flatted 7th note, which is also a C major scale over that change. To me, that line of thinking is totally logical and most lead players I know think along the same lines. How do you determine what to play over the change?? Thanks….James

I wish I could answer that question James, but the truth is i dont know. i dont think about it at all, I just feel the change and go where I need to go. Ive played mostly hard rock and punk my whole life, maybe its a genre thing but Ive just never met any guitarists who actively think about that stuff while playing. Its sort of like riding a bicycle and keeping balance, you dont really think about the motions necessary to remain upright and mobile, you just do them. I dont at all mean to suggest one way is superior to another, in fact Im sure having the knowledge would be better..Im sure i'd benefit from that. just hasnt happened and might never happen for me. one good thing about psg learning is I've had some of that knowledge forced upon me and it HAS helped somewhat in some ways.

Hey Ben, here's a really simple connect-the-dots "blues box" in the key of A at frets 3 and 5 on E9 no pedals. It's baby steps, like you were talking about:


Then, if you were to press your B pedal (raises strings 3 and 6 a half step) it'd look like this:



If I weren't supremely lazy I'd post another diagram showing how handy the A pedal would be with those notes on strings 10 and 5, particularly if you were to "half-pedal" some of the notes.

Also, if you have the change on your guitar that lowers string 9 a half step and lowers string 2 a whole step, you could play the whole thing like this:

(in the tab below, # means raise a half step, ## means raise a whole step, b means lowers a half step, bb means lowers a whole step)

[tab]
1_______________________________________3_______________
2_____________________________3bb_______________________
3_____________________________________________3#________
4___________________________________3___________________
5_____________________3___3#____________________________
6__________________3#___________________________________
7_______________3_______________________________________
8____________3__________________________________________
9_________3b_____________________________________________
10__3__3#________________________________________________[/tab]


Jim, I tried to put one of these together for your tuning, but my head started to hurt. I'm sure it's there, but I'd have to sit at a guitar with your tuning on it. My brain, it is kaput.

A G chord E form means to take an E chord fingering at the nut, move it up three frets and put a barre across the 3rd fret to get a barred G chord with the same pattern as an E chord except for the barre. A C chord A form means to take an A chord at the nut, move it up three frets and put a barre across the 3rd fret. You are just taking the simple chord patterns at the nut, and putting a barre behind each one to take it somewhere else.

For these blues boxes it would be helpful to draw them as neck patterns (when I get some time, maybe I'll try that). But this works for blues boxes because it is sort of part of the blues style to play the pedal steel like a lap steel, moving the bar a lot and not using the pedals and levers much. But for other styles this way of teaching doesn't work so well, because of the 3rd dimension of the pedal and lever changes. For country pedal steel, the pedal and lever changes are as big a part of it, maybe bigger, than moving the bar around in a box. The bar may move very little, and if it does, it might jump up 7 frets to another position, while activating or releasing pedals or levers. The simple two-dimensional guitar neck type diagram just doesn't work as well as tab for that. Since most pedal steel instruction material starts right in to country style, they mostly use tab right from the start.

Moving the bar around alot mixing rapid single string bar moves with pedal mashing is actually considered more advanced pedal steel work. That style is used more in swing and jazz, particulary on C6. The diagrams I remember from Buddy Emmons articles were about that kind of stuff, and they were very complicated.

So some simple 2-D guitar type neck diagrams will work for some simple blues boxes, but they don't work very well for country and country rock, which are what most people buying instruction material want.

Thanks Patrick I'll give those a try when i get home.
David thanks for that explanation of "C chord form A"

So some simple 2-D guitar type neck diagrams will work for some simple blues boxes, but they don't work very well for country and country rock, which are what most people buying instruction material want.

Alot of young people buying psg instructional material would also like to play blues and rock i think, but maybe Im horribly misguided in thinking that. The blues box is used by country players too alot. I'm told country players play from a major scale and use harmonized lead runs alot...but they often mix in a blues lick too. that stuff is gorgeous..sorry to keep bringin up Jaydee Maness (he's my hero) but he'll take a blues lick and then meld it with a sort of harmonized country riff...*swoon. but i digress....

I agree the simplistic fretboard diagrams used by six stringers are inadequate for showing the beautiful pedal and lever movements of the psg and the boxes they create, but as I said the launching pad of that simple no pedals blues box would be nice to have early on from a lazy rock guitarists perspective. After 15 months of Mansion on the Hill i'm just now getting around to finding it.
Thats my own fault I know...I take full responsibilty for my lack of proficiency on this instrument. But if it had been on page one of Winnies book who knows?

This has been a great discussion for me, Ive learned so much, thank you all!!

So some simple 2-D guitar type neck diagrams will work for some simple blues boxes, but they don't work very well for country and country rock,

No, again you're missing it - it's exactly what's needed. Go back and look at BOTH positions I talked about - the "blues" one and the "major" one. Shift the blues one and you have the one the country/rock and country players use 90% of the time.

As Ben noted, the more complicated "up the neck" patterns are useful, but not where it all starts. The "box" concept is like home plate. Everything else goes from there.

As far as solo concepts, like Ben I don't think about any scale or mode concept - I just play what I can reach that sounds right. You're thinking in terms of scale/mode concepts and the "correct" way to play transitional notes or phrases...we're lookin' at the funny papers. That's SORT of a joke - but not really...we just look for patterns and shapes. I have whole books of nothing but geometric patterns, with no "notes" or "modes" mentioned - and I seem to reall one of the most learned of guitarists, Frank Zappa, once writing an article strictly based on moving geometric patterns with total disregard for scales, modes, and chords. It was to get you to "listen" rather than to "think". A very important lesson, as far too many musicians overthink what they are playing, ending up with all the right notes, but sounding all wrong.

Anyway, I play what I find. And if it's wrong, I play it twice so you think I did it on purpose....

Seriously, the pattern Ben posted is exactly what we've been talking about - move that up or down, and you have the blues and "country" boxes.

The steel examples that were posted were interesting, but one piece of the puzzle is missing - the root note. Otherwise, you have no idea where to start/stop.

As far as where to find other examples, you could go to hundreds of "easy guitar" books and some version of the same thing is probably there.

I think realistically, people want "patterns" because it beats actually learning how the instrument works and why. That is why so many 6 string players have such a hard time with steel, all they really did was learn a bunch of patterns on the neck and have no idea how they relate to the associated chord positions and scale degrees.

So you're saying that guitar players who learned that way are somehow deficient? I beg to differ - there are many tremendous players who play basically out of those patterns. Knowing more of the how and why does not make you a better player, it only makes you a more knowledgable one. There's nothing wrong with that, but there's nothing wrong with being a basic fundamental player either, if you do it well. But somehow there seems to be this overriding steel mentality that you must absorb and learn the how/why stuff, play through the Winne and/or Scotty books and pay your country penance before you can be a "steel player", and that quote above is a perfect example.

It's not a matter of "beating" anything, James - it's how we learned. Sorry that we're asking some of you to stoop to our low, cheating, shortcut-laden level. But we're just poor guitar players trying to learn in a way we're familiar with, and we don't know any better. Providing examples of patterns, boxes etc as David and others are doing is helpful (and as much as I chide David for missing the point sometimes, he's trying like heck to "get" it and help as much as he can, and is really appreciated) - telling players their method of learning (and thereby their playing) is defective is not.

At the risk of being redundant, I'll throw this out:

It’s the same on any stringed instrument. On 6-string, if you can play a “blues box,” try moving the whole box down 3 frets. Voila: you’re now playing selected notes from the Major scale. It sounds more “country” and less “rock” when playing over the same chord changes.

Here’s an example on pedal steel moving the opposite direction: It will start with a Major box (or pocket or scale or position or pattern… pick your word), and slide it up 3 frets to make it minor.

Finally, to get the “blues box” familiar to 6-stringers, just play in that minor pattern, and leave out two notes. Simple.

Note: in the following examples, I used pedals (rather than follow Ben’s request to show it without pedals). Showing tab with no bar movement makes it much easier to see the critical relationship: the minor box is the same as the major box. It’s just slid up 3 frets up…

Oh, and there’s one other caveat: After sliding up, the root note now appears on a different string (a lower string). So you’ll add in two new low notes to start the run. But the important thing to see is that all else stays the same.

E9 tuning
Major, minor, and blues (call them boxes, pockets, scales… whatever)
Key of E

Pattern based on “No pedals” fret position:
[tab]
1 -----------------0------------------------------3----------------------3----
2 --------------0-----------------------------3-------------------------------
3 -------------------0-0B---------------------------3-3B-------------------3--
4 ----------------0-----------------------------3-----------------------3-----
5 ---------0-0A--------------------------3-3A---------------------3-3A--------
6 -----0-0B--------------------------3-3B----------------------3--------------
7 ---0----------------------------3--------------------------3----------------
8 -0------------------------3L-3---------------------------3------------------
9 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
10-----------------------3A----------------------------3A---------------------

Major minor blues
(more than (3 frets up. (selected notes
one octave New root of the minor)
shown.) On 10th stg.
All else is
the same)
[/tab]

Pattern based on the "Pedals Down” fret position:

[tab]

1 -------------7--------------------------10------------------------10-----
2 --------7L-------------------------10L-----------------------------------
3 ---------------7-7B-----------------------10-10B---------------------10B-
4 -----------7--------------------------10------------------------10-------
5 ----7-7A----------------------10-10A---------------------10~10A----------
6 –7B---------------------10-10B-----------------------10B-----------------
7 ---------------------10--------------------------10----------------------
8 -------------------------------------------------------------------------
9 -------------------------------------------------------------------------
10-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Major minor blues
(3 frets up. (selected notes
New root of the minor)
On 7th stg.
All else is
the same)
[/tab]
Any fret where you can play a major scale pattern, you can slide up 3 frets, and play the same “moves” – the same strings/pedals/knees, in the same order -- and you’ll have some of the notes of a minor scale. You just have to add two new “low notes” if you want to play the full scale, from root to the octave.

Blues and rock players base much of their playing on notes from the minor scale (typically leaving out two notes). So if you know the minor position, you’ve got many of the notes you’ll want for blues/rock.

It doesn’t have to be complicated. But you have to know how to play the basic pattern. You can’t “slide a box up 3 frets” and make it work.. if you don’t know the basic pattern in the first place (newbies, keep in mind that there are two different patterns here: the “pedals down” position’s pattern is a little different than the “no pedals” position’s pattern. See the example above).

Thats gold Tucker.

To sum it up:
I think theres a deficency in the instructional material for psg BUT I can also see now more than ever that we as guitarists playing from feel and pattern and would be well served to at least attempt to understand the most basic language and principles of music theory. I didnt even know a blues scale was a pentatonic minor. If I had known that I might have been able to infer that since three frets up from root, A pedal down, yeilded a minor chord, it must also yeild a minor scale..the scale im looking for.

Still, the beginners instructional material should give us the blues scale in root position with no pedals in a fretboard view and i guarantee there would be alot of happier newb psg players

greedy? lazy? want it all on handed to us on a platter? maybe so but it will put butts in pac-a-seats as they say....

Jim, I am not going engage in an argument with you because you have already indicated that you know more about music, tone and execution than people like Paul Franklin. Your actually one reason I post very little on this forum. Never once did I say that learning patterns was beneath me, or anyone else. I would submit to you however, that if you spent as much time learning the steel as you did telling everyone else that they don’t know what they are talking, perhaps we would not have to read your rants about your inability to play the type of music you want to play on the steel. If you would just learn the instrument and how it works, you could play whatever you wanted and no one would have to write you a book on how to play rock or whatever you want to play on it. Perhaps if you just learned how and why things work, instead of seeking out shortcuts, you might actually be able to create a little music and appreciate what’s available right in front of you. You basically know everything but yet you want someone else some to write a book to teach you play a specific type of music. Maybe if you would learn the basics of music and how it applies to steel, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. Had you taken to time to actually read my post you might have the read the part where I said I learned guitar exactly the same way you did. It was not until after I applied myself to learning why and how things work that I began to realize that there is more to music than just patterns. I would further submit that you took it upon yourself to decide I was telling people that their learning methods were deficient, when in fact I was only pointing out that having been down both paths, I have found that learning patterns is no where near as helpful as learning the instrument. Although learning patterns is faster, one still does not fully understand his own abilities and he limits himself in knowledge to create, as you have done; so indicted by your repeated complaints that no one has a rock book out for steel. I was trying to share a little of my past experiences with people in hopes that it would create motivation and bring to someone the excitement I have experienced in being able to better understand all the things I can do that I once thought were impossible for a guy like me. I am proud of what I have done and your negative comments and your trying to make me out like I think I am above people is deeply resented. I was making a genuine effort to be helpful and explain alternative methods that might be helpful to someone like Ben. I would say I am sorry, but I am not, so all I will say is that if my ability to learn this, and your inability to learn this offends you, then maybe you should stay off the computer and practice and learn a little about music instead of moaning about how no one will show you an easier way. Don’t expect a response from me on this again, it’s apparent no one here is nearly as educated as you, even though you cant seem to understand basic music theory and how to apply it. Also, I see no reason why one should “pay their country penance”, in fact any note you need for blues or rock is in Winnies book, he just didn’t lead you there by hand like a child and show you how to phrase it. Some things are left to the student to experiment with and become creative; you obviously have not learned that lesson as yet. Have a nice day, I am through with this conversation.….James

Ben Jones wrote: I think theres a deficency in the instructional material for psg BUT I can also see now more than ever that we as guitarists playing from feel and pattern and would be well served to at least attempt to understand the most basic language and principles of music theory...."

That's gold, Ben.

I couldn't agree more, on both counts.

A person doesn't have to know deep theory for steel. But knowing the introductory stuff goes a looong way. I'm talking about things like how to play a major scale, and the scale tones that make up various kinds of chords. And what a "I IV V" chord progression is, etc.

Once that basic foundation is laid, all the rest of the really complicated stuff will hopefully fall into place over the years. Or at least I hope so (everything I know about theory was regurgitated in my earlier post. I'm tapped out here...).

David Doggett wrote: A C chord A form means to take a C chord at the nut, move it up three frets and put a barre across the 3rd fret.

I am thinking you meant: A C chord A form means to take an A chord in the second fret (first position A) and move it to the 5th fret and bar the 3rd...James

Jim Sliff wrote:I think some players just need to accept that guitarists look at things differently, and if you don't want to help us find things our way, fine - but don't tell us we're wrong, or that the stuff is actually there (and then proceed to describe how completely diferent it is), or that all the scale talk is the same thing - because it's not.

Most steel players are guitar players too. We do know what you're talking about.

Blues boxes on E9th, key of E:

10th fret is home, use any of the pedals, up and down.
Slide into the 12th fret, but don't use the pedals at the 12th fret unless you want to sound more country.
At the 12th fret, use your knee to lower the 2nd string by a half.
At the 15th fret, use the first pedal up and down.

At 8th fret, use your knees to lower the 2nd(full), 4th, 8th and 9th strings. You can bounce on the first pedal.
Slide into the 5th or 7th fret, 2nd string lowered half, but don't use the pedals there unless you want to sound country.

3rd fret, same as 15th.
Open strings, same as 12th fret, but you can hammer it against the 3rd and 5th frets.

This stuff isn't hard. It's not music theory or modes or scales or chords. It's patterns that you memorize, just like the patterns you learned for guitar except with the added "invisible" dimension of pedals and levers.

Play around with those pattern positions if you want to learn to play blues and rock in E. Move them up and down the neck to play in different keys. Record a rhythm track with your guitar and play along with it.

Seems that I give this same lesson here on the forum every 6 months or so. Doesn't anyone ever remember it?

b0b. we do talk about the same thing every few months, but rarely has it resulted in any kind of response to what is really talked about - the "visual" graphic patterns...or boxes.

That, to me, is where I lose comprehension in Tucker's explanation, which may very well show how to play blues or country riffs, but again misses the whole point about the geometric patterns - many, many guitar players "see" what they play, and tab isn't the same...and it's not the same "language"

James, I shouldn't even dignify you with a comment, but I'll let your own words demonstate who's playing know-it-all and who's doing the degrading:

I think realistically, people want "patterns" because it beats actually learning how the instrument works and why. That is why so many 6 string players have such a hard time with steel, all they really did was learn a bunch of patterns on the neck and have no idea how they relate to the associated chord positions and scale degrees. For a long time, I was caught in that trap as a 6 string player myself. Then I applied the time to learn what I should have learned in the first place.

Glad to know you think so highly of yourself and lesser of other players. Note I've NEVER made that claim, ever, nor the ones you accuse me of.

If I rile up a few folks, sorry - but I don't ever claim to know much about steel...I've always said I don't know much at all. So go find the posts you think I made...good hunting. I didn't do the insulting buddy - you fired, I ducked and said stop shooting. Sheesh.

Jim Sliff wrote:The steel examples that were posted were interesting, but one piece of the puzzle is missing - the root note. Otherwise, you have no idea where to start/stop.

At the risk of being foolish enough to believe you were talking about the very low tech steel diagrams I posted, the root note in those is on strings 7 and 1...although I understand that you've got your own tuning going on, so those pictures aren't going to do you too much good, since they're based on standard E9.

Patrick, yes - actually those were almost exactly what we're talking about. And even though I use a different tuning, it's still the whole principle that works or doesn't, and you're "low tech" versions, with the root note added, are what guitar players are used to seeing. Knowing the root for those "pictures" helps me as well, because I know enough about E9 that it gives me some comparative ideas.

I'd like to add something to what I said in response to James; I don't know why HE got so ticked, when he went far beyond what we were talking about - basic blues and country boxes - and talked about how guitar players who rely on that are basically inadequate musicians. James, were were discussing a *starting point*, not the whole world of steel. I think you missed that. The "boxes" are how guitarists lear to play, apparently you included. Yes, we all eventually got beyond that, but it's still the *basis* for most playing. Implying it's the easy way out isn't even relevant, as it's working out a place to start for guitarists, not the entire musical repertoire for the rest of their lives. I felt the criticism was both ill-mannered and pointless - and the fact you then decided to make it my fault almost silly.